Jameson76

1 hour ago, mashmaster said:

Funny, the most hated merit badges are the Eagle ones.....  Cit in ...  Family Life

Because certainly that is why every 11 year old eagerly joins Boy Scouts;  just hoping and hoping to be able to:

• Attend a city council meeting
• Have a family meeting
• Make a 12 week budget
• Keep a list of chores
• Write your representative

Railroading.  There was a clinic.  We did some prep work, then some class review.  Then went to downtown, got on a train, did more MB stuff as the train rolled along.  They has some RR enthusiast along

13 minutes ago, perdidochas said:

They're not quite dead yet.......

16 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

It is not a question of just the dedication of the Scouters it is two different questions IMHO:

(1) Is Boy Scouts of America, a Corporation able as it is currently configured and organized, and with current revenue streams and debts a financially and organization sustainable organization. This question which includes social issues such as a national decline in membership organizations, etc. I think there is a reasonable case to be made for the financially viability of BSA the corporate institution given the evidence of consolation of many Councils due to falling membership and declining finances. This is true in areas such as Florida where the the 10-18 population from 1990 (and projected to 2030) has been constantly growing. Others have commented on this forum about BSA's looming debt load on the Summit.

(2) The second is the question is Scouting, as a concept (the boundaries of which are constantly debated) , regardless if single-gendered or mixed is still an attractive people "movement" able to attract, sustain, or grow youth membership in the modern era irregardless of existing conditions and nostalgia. IMHO I think the answer is yes given the proliferation of world scouting. However the next question is 'in what form" and how many would be members? A smaller leaner more traditional structure? A loose confederation of local units with little National structure? How many assets (Camps, High Adventure Bases) should Scouting need or even have? Or a more expanded inclusive school based program? Or a complete reconstruction of ages and program to mirror the UK? Are the social forces, which also impact many youth sports programs and traditional structured religious denominations, represent a more powerful drag that will whittle away scouting altogether? (I call that last one the "we're all doomed" scenario.) 

 

Good points and to add to them one must (for the sake of this discussion) separate CORPORATE BSA from Scouts running around camping

Is BSA Corporate sustainable?  - Not sure.  There has been noted mismanagement of assets and spending.  Most notably Summit and fixed retirement benefits exposure.  Also has the overhead been structured to match the field reality?.  That being said BSA National is one entity and I believe that local councils are a separate entity and then the units are in fact other entities.  As members we are not obligated to pay council debts as the council is not obligated for any unit debts.  This will no doubt come to a head in a few years.  The hail Mary for including girls and the expected membership increases will likely not be in the magnitude needed.  If BSA National folds and/or changes relationship the biggest hurdle will be the liability insurance question.  In some cases that may be an improvement as local entities may be able to get lower rates if out from under the umbrella of National and long-term issues

Is BSA as a concept in current form sustainable - Again, not sure.  Certainly the organization is going to change.  The addition of girls, linked troops, and likely coed units will heavily impact summer camps, any district or council activities, and in many cases local units as they change or do not change.  This change will bring new leaders (hopefully) and sadly the departure of other with their institutional knowledge. Will BSA continue to promote their aims of  character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness.  Will they use and emphasize the methods - Scouting Ideals, Patrols, Outdoors, Advancement, Personal Growth, Adult Association, Leadership Development, Uniforms.  

Real question is will "BSA" (or whatever name) still be the group for youth leadership, youth being allowed to fail, and youth gaining a quality outdoor experience as they journey through scouting over several years OR will "BSA" become another activity that families and youth do for a season as an after school thing and then maybe move on to something else.

19 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

I don't know.  Most troops I know don't have nuclear weapons, not even tiny little ones. 

Speak for yourself...We have some varying designs stashed in the shed.  We only threaten to use them if the District gets uppity.  It is sort of a rite of passage for Scouts taking the Nuclear Science MB.

Also we have them watch the the 1986 Classic "Manhattan Project"

Should we be worried when our boss informs us he now has a twitter feed and it might be good to check it daily?

24 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

I think this is the key word and tricky phrase.

Absolutely correct on needing multiple platforms

When we started the original website many years ago, that was a huge step.  Then we went onto the SOAR site build, linked PayPal and that was great new thing.  Then for summer camp we went away from paper registration forms to Google docs, again step forward.  Then about 6 years ago added Facebook for photos, again better presence, more visibility.  Then we realized we were not communicating with the scouts, talked with them, we launched an Instagram feed.  

It is evolving as FB has really moved away from youth and more to parents.  Instagram may (likely will??) be passe' in a few years and we will be on to something else

13 minutes ago, fred johnson said:

I view troop web sites and Facebook existing to keep parents happy.  If it's not there, parents complain.  But if it is there, they may or may not use it.  It's just an expectation of doing business these days.  I don't view any of the troop online presence being for the scouts.  They text each other and use other methods.  And to be honest, I like that.  I want my scouts to be working with other scouts face-to-face and using pencil and paper and putting the paper in their scoutbook.  Let the adults update the troop web site for adult use (communication and calendaring).

The challenge is the everchanging social media preferences

The troop website can be used for:

• Communications
• Maybe a weekly e-mail to the registered parents
• Postings
• Registrations for events
• Payments if linked to an online payment
• Rosters
• Some public detail

A troop Facebook page is useful for "what are we doing" now updates:

• Admittedly may not be the favorite platform
• Able to post annoucements
• Able to post photos
• You can limit tagging and who can post
• Keeps parents / other family members / unit alumni up to speed on items

Then the question is, how to communicate or engage the Scouts.  One option is instagram

• They can choose to follow the troop
• Announcements can be posted
• Photos from events can be posted
• Scouts can send photos to be posted

Key is that likely the units will need to be one multiple platforms to get messages to different constituencies

emojis may not always be your friend

Huh

Seems like a politico took advantage of a public event to strengthen his candidacy.  While that is his right, as the BSA was in charge of the event, likely could have handled it better

Apparently Mr Mesuer ran for the 10th district nomination in 08 and lost, the 11th district at some point and is now running for the newly remapped 9th district.  The man does not seem to know the word "concede"

We have seen feedback that Cubs then Webelos gets waayyy redundant (how many times to a Fire Station).  Also the pack meetings are sometimes challenging, there is a pretty big difference between a 1st grader (now a kindergartner) and the 5th graders.  There have been some Cubs that leave and then join the troop when they are 11

For the ones in the troop we have seen this feedback

• My friends are not involved
• Do not like camping
• Sports (though we do realize they may be gone for a season)
• Needs more structure (guess the whole boy led and may fail not seen as value)
• Too many outings (once a month...seriously??)
• Just really not my thing

26 minutes ago, AVTech said:

I absolutely disagree with you on this point. My daughter is a Girl Scout. She is bored to tears and cannot wait to be able to do all the cool things her older brother gets to do. The GSUSA  program is very open-ended, so leaders who don't like to camp run programs without camping. The BSA program is much more rigid, and heavily biased towards being outdoors. We will not be poaching from GSUSA, except for those who are NOT being served by their existing Troop's program. We will be attracting young women who want the adventure that a properly run Troop offers.

Not discounting your anecdotal experience

But to be clear, there is nothing preventing her Girl Scout troop from doing any of the activities similar to a BSA unit.  That is their choice.  Not knowing the breakdown, demographics, or flow of participants within GSUSA; one would presume that if there was demand for mirror type activities similar to the BSA, then that would have been incorporated.

Perhaps GSUSA is as tone deaf as BSA with regards to actual things that happen at the actual unit with actual scouts.  As long as you sell cookies, all is well

22 minutes ago, CalicoPenn said:

This is pretty much the exact same argument folks had when the BSA announced that it would allow gay boys in Scouts but allow Troops to make their own decision on whether to include gay boys or not.  The opponents of the inclusion of gay boys weren't content enough to accept that they would have a local (re Troop/CO level) choice of whether or not to include gay boys.  They wanted to make sure their neighboring Troops didn't have that choice either because they didn't want their gay-boy free Troop to have to interact with Troops that had gay boys at summer camp, camporees, flag ceremonies, etc. 

I'm not commenting on these types of threads as much anymore because frankly, I'm tired of the whining and groaning and complaining and the threats to leave.  If you're one of these conditional scouters, which I define as "I'm happy to volunteer as long as nothing ever changes and the BSA does things the way I want them to do them", then do us a favor - stop talking about quitting - just quit.  Do it now - don't wait until 2019.  The Scouts - both the youth members in your units, and the organization as a whole, doesn't need your negativity.  As far as I'm concerned, your Negative Nellyism is going to do far more damage to the Boy Scouts of America and to your Scouts then the inclusion of girls ever will. 

Could the BSA have done better announcing it?  Sure.  At the same time, us people on the ground could have handled it a lot better too - letting the BSA roll it out without all of our speculation.  And no, I don't buy the excuse that in a vacuum people will come up with their own plans.  We're adults - adults can show patience and forbearance, (and model it for our Scouts) and wait until official news comes out to start making our plans - we don't have to act like 8th graders worried about what some bully might do to us after school.  At the most, the only thing we should have done is had a conversation with our CO to ask how they wanted us to handle the co-ed program once it was announced.

If your sons are driving your decision, that's fine - that pretty much drives most people's decision making anyway.

But if your decision making is being made because you personally are upset that the BSA didn't send out a survey to each and every member of the organization to ask for their opinion first, then walk through the door, don't look back - and get on with your life without Scouting and let the rest of us who will work to make things work get on with the business of giving our Scouts the best program that we can.

Not the same situations or served groups

If this was truly a move to by BSA to broaden / expand / service the under served or discriminate against; then maybe.  Challenge is the group they are opening the BSA up to already has a group that services them.  There are also a myriad of groups that service coed youth; religious, community, neighborhood, educational.

Bottom line is this is a move about membership numbers and dollars.  That is all.  Bad decisions by the professionals over the years and very recently with Summit and bloated National staff.  Then they justify this with surveys and separate programs and listening tours and unanimous votes (can you say politburo) is basically not-Trustworthy and not-Loyal

This changes the basic thrust of scouting and dilutes the efforts to mold young men.  Will it be around in 10 years, maybe.  Will it be the same, absolutely not.

Remember the why behind the swimming emphasis in the BSA, it is a needed life skill

• From 2005-2014, there were an average of 3,536 fatal unintentional drownings (non-boating related) annually in the United States
  • about ten deaths per day
• An additional 332 people died each year from drowning in boating-related incidents.
• About one in five people who die from drowning are children 14 and younger
• For every child who dies from drowning, another five receive emergency department care for nonfatal submersion injuries

• Swimming skills help
• Taking part in in formal swimming lessons reduces the risk of drowning among children aged 1 to 4 years
• However, many people don’t have basic swimming skills
• A CDC study about self-reported swimming ability found that:
  • Younger adults reported greater swimming ability than older adults.
  • Self-reported ability increased with level of education.
  • Among racial groups, African Americans reported the most limited swimming ability.
  • Men of all ages, races, and educational levels consistently reported greater swimming ability than women.

14 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Never mind DRP=Declaration of Religious Principles. Thanks Mrs Google!

Let's not be gender specific, gotta be inclusive

That would be (and I am guessing here)  Thanks Mx Google

2 minutes ago, gblotter said:

So if I don't embrace coed camping, I am unworthy to wear the World Crest? Please clarify.

Funny, I had the same sort of feedback when I spoke with our local SE (sorry CEO) after the announcement, he rolled out the term "conditional scouters".  Guess the implication is I was only active and supportive as long as I like the conditions.

Clearly the challenge is conditions have changed.  I did not change it, you did not change it.   Not sure this is all good change management

21 minutes ago, gblotter said:

So in other words, the whole BSA4G structure is unworkable. 

You have to take the longer term view, BSA4G spelled another way = Coed.  That is where the train is headed with CSE Surbaugh and the National board stoking the fires to keep up the full head of steam.  We all have a couple of choices, get on board and embrace the change (make no mistake the whole CO has a choice  will be an cast aside) or just be pushed to the side.  Those that want to experience a single gender type program for boys, not sure where you can go.  Apparently there is one for girls called Girl Scouts.  Unlike the BSA (name subject to change) they are pretty adamant about the whole single gender thing.

From their post after the October announcement: (note it mentions girl 8 times in just the excerpt)

"Girl Scouts is the best girl leadership organization in the world, created with and for girls, We believe strongly in the importance of the all-girl, girl-led, and girl-friendly environment that Girl Scouts provides, which creates a free space for girls to learn and thrive."

35 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Scouter has said he will drop, he does not plan on chaperoning coed camping trips.

Yep - a whole new world there, while we as leaders strive to work and engage on character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness; that will become a focus and we will become less "Scouting" and more just another youth organization kids can dabble in

37 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

if the troop does go coed, the boys will ultimately decide to stay, transfer, or quit altogether.

And that is how the real referendum on these changes will be made

26 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

More like 5 to 20 months.

5 to 20 minutes

13 hours ago, NJCubScouter said:

I have never heard of the Magic Draft, but I sure have heard of Magic cards.  They are a plague on Scouting (and on humankind in general) as far as I am concerned. There have been incidents at summer camp of kids stealing cards, charging each other exorbitant amounts (in U.S. $) for cards, and other un-Scoutlike behavior.  I am glad my son never got into that whole thing.

Our guys play Hearts and some other card games.  We even keep a supply of regular playing cards in the trailer for such.  At the lock-in they play some of these, but then that's what the lock-in is for...that and head shot dodge ball

Call it what you want, linked troops will be coed units.  But that has obviously been the plan all along.  The dishonesty and doublespeak is just atrocious.

The whole one committee has 2 troops is again (as with most of this rollout) just a statement made in a world of fantasy.  Most troops have enough trouble getting a committee together to actually meet for 1 unit, much less 2 units.

Such a mixed message and really poor messaging.  As has been stated, the CSE and BSA National is plunging ahead like they have never seen an actual unit function in the real world...with real volunteers...and real actual parents.  There is likely little credence to the statements that CO and troops can elect to remain single gender.  No doubt that will change in short order.

BSA National...just be honest with what you are planning.

11 minutes ago, qwazse said:

It confused me as a kid as well. In the 70s we didn't make such a fuss about crossing over.

Agree on the crossing over, that was not even a thing back in the day.  You turned 11 and joined a troop.  Remember was in Webelos, then went to Scouts.  No big deal.  Some guys had earlier birthdays so they wrapped up and left.  

Still recall my first Scout camping trip, and we did not camp as cubs back in the day, was off to the swamp and canoeing about.  Best thing ever.

13 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Found out that some councils are not enforcing the minimum 4 girls to start as an early adopter. 

3 minutes ago, Tampa Turtle said:

Scout Queen/King as needed.

So...to be clear, I am not supposed to be running the Texas hold-em big blind games at camp?  Admittedly the pots get way smaller after the first night and "the house" seems to have been the big winner.  Will have to adjust the campsite events