Jameson76

3 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

However, with everything the council has done, and not done, we don't want them to get a dime more than what they are charging.

 

We had a troop near us that folded and we rolled their Scouts into our troop.  Their SM became one of our ASMs.  Honestly the only interaction or feedback from the council was an inquiry about the Troop treasury / funds.  That inquiry was ignored, funds went to the CO

45 minutes ago, skeptic said:

There is a certain irony that National grew from the need to respond to the trenches where Scouting struggled to survive, but was locally vibrant for the times.  And now, when we are back to struggles in similar chasms, they seem to be unaware of reality too often.  Our local council seems too often to simply not get that most volunteers simply want to be kept in the loop.  Our successes are almost all unit based, and seldom noted by Council, unless they find issue.

Our successes are almost all unit based, and seldom noted by Council, unless they find issue a way to monetize that success.

Fixed it for you

23 hours ago, njdrt-rdr said:

We just had a brand new scout join our troop here in NJ, between council($75), national($85) and administrative fee($4.88). The fee to BSA to join was $167.68.
Our campout this weekend we are canoeing. Our troop has canoes, but we can't get enough leaders this weekend to shuttle ourselves so we had to hire a shuttle. It's $31 a person for the shuttle and $10 a person to camp (group site at a state park) so we are at $41 each for the weekend and haven't charged for food or supplies yet. So I can see a campout being $71. 

We do an aquatics outing at a large lake near us.  Have boats come in for tubing, rent canoes from the camp.  After camping fees (out of council camp), rental fees, and boat gas reimbursement, it can be close to $45 - $50.  None of the leaders ask for gas money etc, but the outings can get costly when you pay state park fees, maybe an outfitter, maybe some admissions, and other costs

1 hour ago, Tron said:

there are far too many councils

As an organization and movement we have to grow past an 8 week utilization period for our camps, and our camps need to look at the hotel and for profit camping industry for appropriate usage levels; we have too many properties competing for summer camp dollars and as an organization we don't have any idea on how to run the camps the remaining 44 weeks of the year. 

Councils - 

Absolutely too many councils, too much overhead.   As long as they keep raising money on the nostalgic memory of BSA, they will survive I guess

Properties - 

My understanding is (2024 I believe) for summer, if you took all the BSA properties, totaled up all the available slots in the camp (for example a camp is open 5 weeks and capacity is 250 per week, available slots are 1,250), the overall usage was maybe 30%.  That means there is a lot of unused capacity.

Data shows top 3 property attendance

1. Philmont
2. Seabase
3. Woodruff (Blairsville, GA)

SA (formerly BSA) clearly needs to resize and figure out how to efficiently deliver program, how far will units travel, how many weeks can they operate, what can they do to fully utilize the property.  If one were to combine councils the properties could be passed to other groups (State / County / City parks for example) and the maintenance and sunk costs could be eliminated.

3 hours ago, Tron said:

National is not "publicly" releasing membership numbers. It's not hard for volunteers to get those numbers though, just have to ask your district leadership. My understanding is that membership is down nationwide; however, with the new membership method we won't have a really good apples-to-apples look until December 31st. My council just did a hard shift from fundraising to recruiting, and every unit in my district was given a made up recruitment number that was arbitrary. My understanding (if the numbers being shared in my council are correct) is that my council isn't even trying to recruit to keep membership stable. Even if we hit these made up recruitment numbers we're (the council) going to come in something like 5-10% below our previous post covid membership peak for this recruitment push. 

I think the most alarming thing about what is going on is the number of units folding. All of nationals numbers, analysis, etc ... from the CST's and NAM meetings were tied to the fact that packs and troops are roughly the average same size for various reasons and that "super units" are anomalies and we need more units to actually gain more scouts.  

 

Any time membership drop is discussed there are always qualifiers; well it was this, it was that, it was letting females in, it was not letting females in soon enough,  it was the Mormon Church leaving, it was letting in 5 year old Lions, it was COVID, Scouting cost too much. it's the way too long Cub program, it was the bankruptcy, we need to wait for this date to normalize, the new registration system messed up stuff, etc etc.  All very good assumptions, but an best anecdotal.  There are no facts and no real understanding of why membership continues to drop.  

There are never any facts (from districts / councils / national / executive board) to support and figure a path forward.

What SA (formerly BSA) is NOT doing is root cause analysis; for youth leaving / not joining OR for successful units.  Where are the actual exit interviews, where is the research, who is benchmarking successful units with floundering units.  Yes there is universal leader / volunteer training but what works and what doesn't?

IMHO National and Councils are mainly looking at dollars raised.  I got a survey recently about my perception (attitude??) about Scouting America.  In summary it was mainly about donations and financially supporting Scouting.  In my council there is no emphasis on adding members.  DE's focus on raising funds, so the council can hire staff to raise money.  All events are monetized.  Goal of Scouts is to raise money, that is the bar.

Until the BSA comes to really understand underlying issues, what needs and perceptions are not being met, and what needs to be changed, nothing will change.

Bottom line, 815,000 youth in 230 (or so) councils means 3,500 youth per council.  If a Council Executive (average) pay is $200K (all in) that means just for the local CE there is a burden of $57 per member.  Data suggest 3,100 or so SA employees, so that may indicate (with benefits) just labor overhead burden of +/- $190,000,000 or $233 PER YOUTH member.  That is before any other overhead costs such as IT, liability insurance.  SA (formerly BSA) needs to reduce the costs, focus on growth, and get rid of what doesn't add value.

Interesting perspective - A 115-year-old leadership development organization

I have never considered the BSA a leadership development organization.  Sure, there are chances to learn experience leadership, as there are opportunities to experience camping, nature study, swimming, cooking, archery, etc etc

Scouting should be about helping youth realize THEY can actually do things, they can be in charge of who they are, they don't need permission to succeed.  In more current lingo we teach youth to adult. 

No 11 year old wants to join a leadership organization.  Now might they be interested in a group that does activities and adventures that is run by the youth, more likely

Our troop uses these, about $30.  EVERYTHING needs to fit in the trunk.  They show up for camp with a trunk and a daypack for the trip to camp.  Helps with packing and moving goods to site.  Can be used in tents (camp has the 2 person platform tents), keeps things dry if they actually close it, can be a table a seat, etc.

So range activities seem to be back on as of Thursday late evening maybe.  No additional training, no updates issued, just the local SE signing a document that their range follows all the known rules.  No changes to the rules, just swearing they follow them.  One would think that maybe now outside groups could not use the BSA facilities, but, there is money to be gained from that, soooo

Basically corporate CYA, or as some in industry may call it "Safety Theatre".  

Some new background on this, and apparently this is not 100% just related to shooting sports, though that is what is impacted right now.

From what I understand this concept of the "Stand down" is a BSA National initiative.  If there is an aquatics incident in some state at BSA camps / property, ALL aquatics in all camps will stand down for a few days.  If there is a mountain bike incident, ALL mountain biking will stand down for a few days.  Rinse, lather, repeat.

No information of actual process for what additional training or actions will be taken in a stand down, how long a stand down will be, or what will trigger the lifting of a stand down.  This is somehow related to new insurance policy and coming out of bankruptcy.  As we can all see a good bit of confusion.

As a side note for camps that have staff in camp school RIGHT NOW for training, they are basically out of luck.  Just sitting around and talking, no range time or any or the actual nuts and bolts as the range is effectively closed.

37 minutes ago, Tron said:

The standdown shouldn't be a big deal. This shouldn't affect the summer camps. National needs to put resources into investigating the risks, conduct an analysis, and put out any recommendations (if needed, S happens right?). 3 weeks until camp should be a headache but not a show stopper. 

That is an optimistic view.  This seems to be the "Never let a crisis go unused" strategy for some to achieve a goal of ending shooting sports.  BSA does nothing fast, the Memorial Day weekend will extend the decision timelines and there are large camps that start staff week on Sunday with week 1 for them starting 6/1/2025.  There are staff hired to run the ranges, councils have invested in arrows, ammunition, clays, etc.  In reality the timeline is maybe 5 to 7 days to "review".

Seems a bit of an over reaction.  Maybe be specific to standing down non-scout groups.  There is a constituency within and outside BSA that has been gunning (pun intended) to limit or close target activities for many years.  

Maybe this was their excuse

5 hours ago, Tron said:

This is not quite accurate any longer. It's their (DE and commissioner corps) job to advise, but it's no longer their role to be held accountable for a units success or failure. He can reach out to them for help but it will only be worth while if the troop is ready and willing to listen. 

DE's are mainly responsible for fund raising.  Keep the cash flowing, membership may be nice but not essential to the DE's performance.  FOS, Camp Cards, Popcorn sells, etc.  Little to no interaction or direction for units these days.  In our council, more than 1/2 the paid staff is there for money raising.  Second highest paid staffer in the council is "development" or money raising.

2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Stop the Lion and Tiger program. My feeder pack has 95 scouts now, only 1 AOL crossover.  Kids and parents burn out after 5 years of Cub Scouting.  

Our Troop went from 83 to 17 and after next year likely less than 10.  Covid and Lion parent burnout hit Cub Scout transfers over the last 5 years.

Most kids join Scouts BSA as Cub Scout transfers, so see if you can get a Wolf to AOL pack started. 

Agree.  In the feeder pack for every 12 kids that join as Lions and Tigers (oh my!!) maybe 3 or 4 make it to AOL and potentially crossover.  Then they have had 5 + years of Cubs so the expectation is Scouts will be like Cubs, which it isn't, so there is a high dropout rate.  Also many assume Scouts is like Cubs so they never make it to AOL, tired of the repetitive cub program.

Also families may assume Scouts is like cubs and expect the hand holding, social promotion, and family camping.  Imbalance of expectations and reality

In many ways you are experiencing disinterest that may not be of your own making.  Scouting has experienced a decline over the last 45 years.  Slowly the passing down of Scouting from one generation to the next has grown smaller.  Less parents were involved as kids so they do not migrate towards having their kids in Scouting.  Basically a smaller population that thinks favorably of the program.  Many have some esoteric view or opinion, but not actual experience.  Additionally the overall Scouting program in the US has moved more towards the experience of Scouting and less on growing Scouts, easier to leave the program.  In many cases units are seen as just more school.

For Scouts (11-19) for summer of 2024 if you took all the camps, all the weeks, and all the availability, nationally the camps were at 30% capacity.  A small handful were full, but most had lots of empty space.  There may be youth registered, but not a high level of engagement.  Long term I'm not sure of the fix.  In many cases key will be to make the program relevant and work to be clear on what the program is about and what the positive outcomes can be.

We too had 80 Scouts 9 years ago, not so much now and we are in the 20's.  Also the expectations of families have changed.  We camp 11 - 12 times a year, many kids and their families are not supportive of a robust outdoor program.  Possibly meeting in the woods and kids running things scares parents.  Also getting the parents engaged is tough.  Have crews going on high adventure and could not find enough parents that would serve as leaders.  Ended up recruiting a past leader who's son aged out 3 years ago and then an older brother who is 21 and an Eagle from our troop.  15 years ago we had wait lists for adults for the treks.

As I noted, really not sure of the long term fix.

7 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Always refer to the G2A ... Guide To Advancement.

In my view  ... The Eagle Project is about service and leadership in doing that service.  The workbook is well laid out and explicitly describes the steps.  The project is enough in and of itself.  Adding troop unique expectations makes the Eagle Project more about jumping hoops and than giving service.  IMHO, we teach bad lessons when we make advancement about jumping hoops.

• Not required and can't be required ... but troops still do it.  
• Is it harmful?  Mostly no.
• Is this a hill to die on either direction?  No. 
• Is it a good idea?  No, but I flip flop and can see both sides. 
  • Does it help the scout?  Maybe a few scouts, but mostly no.  The scout MUST fill out the Eagle Project Workbook in detail.  That is the scout's commitment.  A PowerPoint is extra and just decorative.  
  • Committees ... chair or designee(s) ... must review the workbook.  That is what is being signed and is effectively a contract.  A PowerPoint presentation is NOT what is being signed off.  I've had scouts show me their PowerPoint presentation required by their troop.  I sat nicely and listened.  ... THEN, we went section by section thru the workbook write-up because that is the commitment.
  • Bad ... Could be the unrequired extra hoop to jump thru that causes a scout to give up on Eagle.
  • Good ... Might give some scouts presentation practice that helps scouts later in the process ... IMHO this is a big stretch.
• Why do troops do it?
  • Biggest reason I've seen is the worst because it does not match Guide To Advancement.  Troops justify it as it gives scouts experience presenting to groups and talking in front of groups.  IMHO, that's what the Communications MB is about.  That's what the rest of the scouting program is about.  Eagle project is about service and leading that service.  IMHO, it smells more of committee self-importance.   

If a troop wants to do it, it's not a hill to die on.  Smile nicely.  Listen.  Don't promote the practice and point out the scout requirements are in the Eagle project workbook and the Guide To Advancement.   

... Sorry if I am long winded.   This was a hot button topic for me as I've been involved in many Eagle project proposal reviews.

No more and no less, use the tools and requirements

Sadly there are units that feel the need to put "their" spin on projects.  Must have CAD drawings, Must build something, Must put in XX hours, Must have XX Scouts work on the project, Must, Must, Must.  While the intentions may be good, as has been noted, these local add-ons do not adhere to G2A.  How to politely navigate that deviation can be a challenge

On 4/14/2025 at 10:43 AM, Eagle94-A1 said:

So as you may know, my troop recruits by word of mouth. Mostly transfers from other units. I am seeing a really depressing trend, Scouts coming in with skills signed off, but have no idea what to do or are not able to do it. 

From one troop we have a guy who was signed off on a bunch of stuff through First Class, including passing a swim test. Yet when we did the annual swim test, could barely pass the beginner test. When I asked about it, he said he didn't remember passing a swim test, but his old troop signed off on it after summer camp. When asked if he took instructional swim ever, he said no.

We got another potential Scout, he is checking out other  troops now, visit us a few times. When I asked about what rank he is, experience with o other troop, etc. It is a deer on the headlights. When working on Scout skills, deer in the headlights when asked to do them. He doesn't even know what rank he is. When I finally met the dad, dad said he is First Class and dad has all the paperwork. When I told dad once he joins the troop, I can access SCOUTBOOK, and whatever is missing I can use his handbook, dad said he doesn't have a handbook, but he has a folder of what he has done.

Finally, we got a Life Scout transfer in. Took him camping, and forgot a bunch of gear, including gear I sent reminders on. He didn't know how to pack for a campout, nor set up a tent. When asked about camping, he said troop went camping 2, maybe 3 times a year. And summer camp was on your own as provisional. Previous to the campout he asked about his remaining MBs. I checked Scoutbook, and when I mentioned Citizenship in the Community, he told me he should have that because we went to the city meeting. When I told him more is involved with the MB, he told me that his previous SM told him all he needed to do was the city meeting and he got it. The topic of board of reviews came up talking to another Scout. He asked what they were. When I explained what they were, and asked about them in his old troop, he told me, "Oh, Mr. (SM's Name) and Mr. (CC's (?) name) said they don't have time to do one, but I got the rank."

Is anyone else seeing this trend of folks getting signed off, but not actually doing the work? And of course, once it is in Scoutbook, it is a done deal.

 

This seems to be part of the overall trend where Scouting is less experiential learning, less growing through group dynamics, less boy led and more, well almost school work focus.  Along with MBU and not really becoming "Scouts", this is wanted by parents, who do not want to actually be involved, they just have expectations.  They are expecting the new scouts to stay within their peer groups, stay in their comfort zones, get socially promoted through the ranks and be led by the leaders through monitored and "safe" activities.  That whole outdoor and weekend camping interferes with sports, is scary and challenging,  and boys may get dirty and be uncomfortable.  Also how will the parents keep an eye on them, I mean they aren't heading out to the woods as an ASM or leader.  In many cases the new crossover families want a warm and embracing Webelos III experience.

The challenge is many boys, after 5th grade, find this somewhat boring.  The retention rates is very low for many units due to these expectations and families assuming the Scouts program (11 - 17 years olds) will be like Cubs.  One of the reasons there is not overall growth in the program.  On a macro scale the promise of fun and adventure in many (though not all) cases is not being delivered.  Units are getting way smaller.  Average size for units at our camp 8 years ago was +/- 24 youth in camp.  Last year the average was less than 17 youth.

The Scouts that are in units that camp, that challenge them, that get them out of their normal comfort zone, and let the youth run the program keep those Scouts.  Those units lose most to aging out, not just having kids not showing up any more.  Sadly there are less and less units that are run in this manner.

On 4/4/2025 at 6:24 PM, Tron said:

Last year they withheld exact numbers until the national meeting to add more spice to the convention? Do you think that could be the case again this year?

Massaging numbers can take a good bit of time, you can't just cook the books overnight.  Has to be somewhat believable.

On 4/2/2025 at 1:11 PM, Tron said:

In that global news wire thing they state more than a million which is purposely vague; however, knowing how non-profits like to do things I am going to assume that more than a million is closer to 1 million than any other milestone number above 1 million. I think we take this as a good thing, staying above 1 million for 2 years in a row is a sign that the membership decline has arrested. If they had reported just under 1 million or almost 1 million I would totally be in the oh snap, we're still declining camp.

My special twist to this discussion though .... local rumors in my area are that "all hands on deck" emails were sent out last night concerning membership loss. Apparently the council I am in was not watching the expired membership reports and was counting everyone who had not renewed their membership on Dec 31, 2024 as members and yesterday when national dropped all of those people from the membership rolls my council lost somewhere around 25% of it's membership. 

What is everyone else hearing in their neck of the woods? 

The complete lack of transparency by BSA (or DBA SA as part of BSA...it's somewhat confusing) on actual membership numbers is certainly neither Trustworthy or Helpful and is troubling.  I would also suggest that the management team is not at all Thrifty with BSA resources.

Obviously the numbers are low, or they have no good way to validate or generate membership numbers.  Par for the course for an organization that judges success by money raised and not participants

On 3/4/2025 at 11:24 AM, Eagle94-A1 said:

Did whomever who came up with this not look at history and the 1972 "Improved Scouting Program" fiasco, where it was possible to become an Eagle without a single night of camping?

 

They figure all of us that endured the ISP effort of the 70's have maybe forgotten.  (We have not) Even as a youth we fully understood it was a fiasco.  I got my Eagle (had to accelerate the process) under the "Old" requirements.  On camp staff a few years later there were Old Eagles and New Eagles.  Even though they camped and were actually on staff, there was still the pecking order.

Scouts can easily read and understand requirements.  They see that much of the advancement now is focused on classroom and less on experiential learning.  Youth want action, not more school.  Go and DO

On 2/27/2025 at 9:51 AM, Prime00 said:

I have heard from inside sources, that 2 large factors in Scout Executive pay are fundraising results and size of staff they manage. This creates a perfect self-fulfilling prophecy. You have to hire more people to fundraise the money that you want. Then when you fundraise enough, you can hire even more people. Then those people can go fundraise even more which repeats the cycle. Unfortunately, this cycle will break down, it is just a question which link breaks first.

That is it 100% in our council.  Waaay less Scouts and units, waaaaay more staff.  There are districts that 40 years ago were massive, they broke those into 3 or 4 districts, overall same geography but far less scouts and 3 times the number of DE's.  The structure is like IBM of the 70's, layer upon layer.  DE reports to a senior DE who reports to a Field Director who reports to a Are Director who reports to some sort of Council Operations person who I think reports to the Deputy SE who then reports to the SE  sorry CEO.  The poor rangers at camp have like 5 professional from various levels / areas giving direction.  

Raise money and hire more people to raise money

My council is a culture of cash is king.  The professional motto is ABF - Always Be Fundraising.  Everything the council puts out on any platform are the council sponsored events.  If they are not able to monetize something (like promote a unit doing a cool outing or a unit providing good service) they do not care.  Quite actually more than 1/2 of the paid employees in the council are "Development" or "Marketing" staff.  Now you might think marketing is promoting the program, nope, it's about marketing fundraising.

Any DE, when they are hired, the description of duties in the announcement first reads leading FOS, popcorn, and camp cards.  Oh, maybe recruiting and unit growth, but that is waaaaaay down the list.

My council operates with this question: "Do we raise money to have Scouting - OR - Do we have Scouting to be able to raise money?".  They are 100% focused in the latter part of this question.

2 hours ago, skeptic said:

While I agree it should have been no huge issue with proper prep and back up.  But I also know that today, common activities we did with little thought are now preexamined for ANY type of legal problems.  And, knowing it might get really cold could be one of those.  When we still had our camp, and we did Winter camp, prep was stressed, but we also had a fireplace in the dining hall and one of our out buildings and the dining hall was kept with a fire.  So contingent plans were in place, which were sensible and available.  Today we are in constant CYA mode which does considerable harm to simply learning to cope.  I have no solution for over reactions and fear of problems, as too many people refuse to take responsibility for anything that comes up, even if the situation had a way to deal with stuff.  Johnny or Susie came home with a cold and had a miserable time, so here is our medical bill.  And they will no longer participate.  It is sad, and dealing with it is frustrating, but each one that somehow survives such awful experience will mostly smile later and wonder why they did not do more.  We had annual flashlight wars after dark at the winter camps, and some units went to separate campsites and did their own program, but joined with the larger group as well.  

 

The CYA and concern over activities is (or can be) challenging.

Group of us that staff at camp was asked to do something at an upcoming council camporee (think things that go boom).  We do this for weekly campfires, use only items that can be legally purchased in our state, understand distances, how to safely do this, etc.  Have done this at camp for many years and have done this as several council events.  Never any issues and no even close calls.  Early on our main guy that organizes this for the camp declined.  The organizing group looked at options and due to costs came back to us, we said well sure (it's for the kids).  Then we were on a zoom call and they started laying out we needed this, and that, wanted lists of what were using, who was doing it etc, we were texting amongst ourselves (5 or 6 of us) and our main guy sort of stopped the call, said we understood their position, we may not be who they need, have a nice day, and ended the call.

They came back to us, we raised our budget and they basically begged us to do it, as we have gotten closer another "staff member" felt the need to exert wishes and input their control and so again we said well then we're out, and have a great day, good luck.  They quickly came back and we advised maybe, don't need the staff member involved, and again we're a maybe.

They did send payment, we are on the schedule for this to happen in the next few weeks and supposedly we are a go.  Made it clear any pushback that day and we can just load back up and roll on home.

Bottom line combining the CYA culture, the risk aversion culture, and the staff folks (who feel they are the ones that need to be in charge), it can take the fun and spontaneous nature out of stuff.  The rules for cub campouts and what is "required" to be an acceptable camping facility are extensive.  I've stayed at hotels with less amenities. 

2 hours ago, PACAN said:

End of January....966974

So would I be correct that comparing to the reported EOY 2024 numbers of 1,030,862 BSA (sorry SA 😔) is down 63,888 from that number or 6.19%?