Jameson76
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Posts posted by Jameson76
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On 4/14/2025 at 10:43 AM, Eagle94-A1 said:
So as you may know, my troop recruits by word of mouth. Mostly transfers from other units. I am seeing a really depressing trend, Scouts coming in with skills signed off, but have no idea what to do or are not able to do it.
From one troop we have a guy who was signed off on a bunch of stuff through First Class, including passing a swim test. Yet when we did the annual swim test, could barely pass the beginner test. When I asked about it, he said he didn't remember passing a swim test, but his old troop signed off on it after summer camp. When asked if he took instructional swim ever, he said no.
We got another potential Scout, he is checking out other troops now, visit us a few times. When I asked about what rank he is, experience with o other troop, etc. It is a deer on the headlights. When working on Scout skills, deer in the headlights when asked to do them. He doesn't even know what rank he is. When I finally met the dad, dad said he is First Class and dad has all the paperwork. When I told dad once he joins the troop, I can access SCOUTBOOK, and whatever is missing I can use his handbook, dad said he doesn't have a handbook, but he has a folder of what he has done.
Finally, we got a Life Scout transfer in. Took him camping, and forgot a bunch of gear, including gear I sent reminders on. He didn't know how to pack for a campout, nor set up a tent. When asked about camping, he said troop went camping 2, maybe 3 times a year. And summer camp was on your own as provisional. Previous to the campout he asked about his remaining MBs. I checked Scoutbook, and when I mentioned Citizenship in the Community, he told me he should have that because we went to the city meeting. When I told him more is involved with the MB, he told me that his previous SM told him all he needed to do was the city meeting and he got it. The topic of board of reviews came up talking to another Scout. He asked what they were. When I explained what they were, and asked about them in his old troop, he told me, "Oh, Mr. (SM's Name) and Mr. (CC's (?) name) said they don't have time to do one, but I got the rank."
Is anyone else seeing this trend of folks getting signed off, but not actually doing the work? And of course, once it is in Scoutbook, it is a done deal.
This seems to be part of the overall trend where Scouting is less experiential learning, less growing through group dynamics, less boy led and more, well almost school work focus. Along with MBU and not really becoming "Scouts", this is wanted by parents, who do not want to actually be involved, they just have expectations. They are expecting the new scouts to stay within their peer groups, stay in their comfort zones, get socially promoted through the ranks and be led by the leaders through monitored and "safe" activities. That whole outdoor and weekend camping interferes with sports, is scary and challenging, and boys may get dirty and be uncomfortable. Also how will the parents keep an eye on them, I mean they aren't heading out to the woods as an ASM or leader. In many cases the new crossover families want a warm and embracing Webelos III experience.
The challenge is many boys, after 5th grade, find this somewhat boring. The retention rates is very low for many units due to these expectations and families assuming the Scouts program (11 - 17 years olds) will be like Cubs. One of the reasons there is not overall growth in the program. On a macro scale the promise of fun and adventure in many (though not all) cases is not being delivered. Units are getting way smaller. Average size for units at our camp 8 years ago was +/- 24 youth in camp. Last year the average was less than 17 youth.
The Scouts that are in units that camp, that challenge them, that get them out of their normal comfort zone, and let the youth run the program keep those Scouts. Those units lose most to aging out, not just having kids not showing up any more. Sadly there are less and less units that are run in this manner.
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On 4/4/2025 at 6:24 PM, Tron said:
Last year they withheld exact numbers until the national meeting to add more spice to the convention? Do you think that could be the case again this year?
Massaging numbers can take a good bit of time, you can't just cook the books overnight. Has to be somewhat believable.
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On 4/2/2025 at 1:11 PM, Tron said:
In that global news wire thing they state more than a million which is purposely vague; however, knowing how non-profits like to do things I am going to assume that more than a million is closer to 1 million than any other milestone number above 1 million. I think we take this as a good thing, staying above 1 million for 2 years in a row is a sign that the membership decline has arrested. If they had reported just under 1 million or almost 1 million I would totally be in the oh snap, we're still declining camp.
My special twist to this discussion though .... local rumors in my area are that "all hands on deck" emails were sent out last night concerning membership loss. Apparently the council I am in was not watching the expired membership reports and was counting everyone who had not renewed their membership on Dec 31, 2024 as members and yesterday when national dropped all of those people from the membership rolls my council lost somewhere around 25% of it's membership.
What is everyone else hearing in their neck of the woods?The complete lack of transparency by BSA (or DBA SA as part of BSA...it's somewhat confusing) on actual membership numbers is certainly neither Trustworthy or Helpful and is troubling. I would also suggest that the management team is not at all Thrifty with BSA resources.
Obviously the numbers are low, or they have no good way to validate or generate membership numbers. Par for the course for an organization that judges success by money raised and not participants
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On 3/4/2025 at 11:24 AM, Eagle94-A1 said:
Did whomever who came up with this not look at history and the 1972 "Improved Scouting Program" fiasco, where it was possible to become an Eagle without a single night of camping?
They figure all of us that endured the ISP effort of the 70's have maybe forgotten. (We have not) Even as a youth we fully understood it was a fiasco. I got my Eagle (had to accelerate the process) under the "Old" requirements. On camp staff a few years later there were Old Eagles and New Eagles. Even though they camped and were actually on staff, there was still the pecking order.
Scouts can easily read and understand requirements. They see that much of the advancement now is focused on classroom and less on experiential learning. Youth want action, not more school. Go and DO
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On 2/27/2025 at 9:51 AM, Prime00 said:
I have heard from inside sources, that 2 large factors in Scout Executive pay are fundraising results and size of staff they manage. This creates a perfect self-fulfilling prophecy. You have to hire more people to fundraise the money that you want. Then when you fundraise enough, you can hire even more people. Then those people can go fundraise even more which repeats the cycle. Unfortunately, this cycle will break down, it is just a question which link breaks first.
That is it 100% in our council. Waaay less Scouts and units, waaaaay more staff. There are districts that 40 years ago were massive, they broke those into 3 or 4 districts, overall same geography but far less scouts and 3 times the number of DE's. The structure is like IBM of the 70's, layer upon layer. DE reports to a senior DE who reports to a Field Director who reports to a Are Director who reports to some sort of Council Operations person who I think reports to the Deputy SE who then reports to the
SEsorry CEO. The poor rangers at camp have like 5 professional from various levels / areas giving direction.Raise money and hire more people to raise money
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My council is a culture of cash is king. The professional motto is ABF - Always Be Fundraising. Everything the council puts out on any platform are the council sponsored events. If they are not able to monetize something (like promote a unit doing a cool outing or a unit providing good service) they do not care. Quite actually more than 1/2 of the paid employees in the council are "Development" or "Marketing" staff. Now you might think marketing is promoting the program, nope, it's about marketing fundraising.
Any DE, when they are hired, the description of duties in the announcement first reads leading FOS, popcorn, and camp cards. Oh, maybe recruiting and unit growth, but that is waaaaaay down the list.
My council operates with this question: "Do we raise money to have Scouting - OR - Do we have Scouting to be able to raise money?". They are 100% focused in the latter part of this question.
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2 hours ago, skeptic said:
While I agree it should have been no huge issue with proper prep and back up. But I also know that today, common activities we did with little thought are now preexamined for ANY type of legal problems. And, knowing it might get really cold could be one of those. When we still had our camp, and we did Winter camp, prep was stressed, but we also had a fireplace in the dining hall and one of our out buildings and the dining hall was kept with a fire. So contingent plans were in place, which were sensible and available. Today we are in constant CYA mode which does considerable harm to simply learning to cope. I have no solution for over reactions and fear of problems, as too many people refuse to take responsibility for anything that comes up, even if the situation had a way to deal with stuff. Johnny or Susie came home with a cold and had a miserable time, so here is our medical bill. And they will no longer participate. It is sad, and dealing with it is frustrating, but each one that somehow survives such awful experience will mostly smile later and wonder why they did not do more. We had annual flashlight wars after dark at the winter camps, and some units went to separate campsites and did their own program, but joined with the larger group as well.
The CYA and concern over activities is (or can be) challenging.
Group of us that staff at camp was asked to do something at an upcoming council camporee (think things that go boom). We do this for weekly campfires, use only items that can be legally purchased in our state, understand distances, how to safely do this, etc. Have done this at camp for many years and have done this as several council events. Never any issues and no even close calls. Early on our main guy that organizes this for the camp declined. The organizing group looked at options and due to costs came back to us, we said well sure (it's for the kids). Then we were on a zoom call and they started laying out we needed this, and that, wanted lists of what were using, who was doing it etc, we were texting amongst ourselves (5 or 6 of us) and our main guy sort of stopped the call, said we understood their position, we may not be who they need, have a nice day, and ended the call.
They came back to us, we raised our budget and they basically begged us to do it, as we have gotten closer another "staff member" felt the need to exert wishes and input their control and so again we said well then we're out, and have a great day, good luck. They quickly came back and we advised maybe, don't need the staff member involved, and again we're a maybe.
They did send payment, we are on the schedule for this to happen in the next few weeks and supposedly we are a go. Made it clear any pushback that day and we can just load back up and roll on home.
Bottom line combining the CYA culture, the risk aversion culture, and the staff folks (who feel they are the ones that need to be in charge), it can take the fun and spontaneous nature out of stuff. The rules for cub campouts and what is "required" to be an acceptable camping facility are extensive. I've stayed at hotels with less amenities.
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2 hours ago, PACAN said:
End of January....966974
So would I be correct that comparing to the reported EOY 2024 numbers of 1,030,862 BSA (sorry SA 😔) is down 63,888 from that number or 6.19%?
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6 hours ago, PACAN said:This was "missing" from the 2025 MB updates.9. Show experience in camping by doing the following:
- (a) Camp for at least 20 nights at designated Scouting activities or events. One long-term camping experience of up to six consecutive nights may be applied toward this requirement. Two nights may be counted toward the total for each additional long-term camping trip. Each night must be spent either under the sky, in a tent you have pitched yourself (if a tent is provided and already set up, you do not need to pitch your own), in a hammock that is safely strung outdoors, in a lean-to, or other three-sided shelter with an open front. Nights spent in indoor lock-in events, cabin camping, hotel stays, or other covered accommodations do not count toward the 20 nights.
Not a bad change, there are many competing priorities and some Scouts many only be able to attend say 1 night of some 2 night outings, yet can commit to camp each summer or high adventure trips.
5 hours ago, skeptic said:This latter added is interesting, as I chose, as SM and counselor for the badge to do just that almost from the start. It just made perfect sense to me that we should not penalize a youth for participating. If it had been simply a weekend two night outing, we would have counted it, so why not longer term programed camps? Now, I did make a judgement call if a youth was never doing the shorter outings, and the max was always two. So IF the youth only went on long term summer camp, not treks to Philmont and such, then it would gen really never be a real issue, as the totals would take too long. It was my prerogative
I felt, and still do.
Agree and as a Camping MB I also used some discretion. We had a troop fold and had many of their Scouts join, 75% were older. Unfortunately they had not done as much weekend camping as our troop did, but, they did go to summer camps. Many were around Jrs in HS, so we had them camp as they could, and looked at summer camp as much as we could for those "extra" nights.
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Our Troop stopped by Jimmy Carter's boyhood Farm in January of 2024. We toured and had a Scouts Own Service there. Also stopped briefly in Plains. Reminded the Troop of this on Sunday that they had been there and to keep up with the news on Jimmy Carter and Plains.
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On 12/23/2024 at 1:12 PM, skeptic said:
In Scouting, we share in these values of family, reverence, and service to others. As we gather with those we love during this holiday, we are given us a chance to pause, reflect, and appreciate the blessings we have, while also giving back to those in need.
As we come together with family and friends, may we carry forward the spirit of generosity, kindness, and faith—values that both the Christmas and Hanukkah traditions highlight, and values that we continue to nurture in our Scouts.
I wanted to highlight the subliminal messages. Our SE sent out the "Remember Scouting in the time of giving..." Give me strength. Every message we seem to get revolves around giving
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14 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:
Out of all of the changes, I am pretty sure National doesn't care much about the loss of camps.
I would posit that National would rather we have no camps and would be happy if Scouts do not go outside at all. That is where bad things may happen. My view is that National and the Councils want to focus on the Cubs that are easier to manage and have parents there to oversee. This whole Troops out and about without generating revenue to National and Councils is not the desired process
Scouts is about raising money. Youth out doing things is secondary. Legacy things such as camps are not needed in the new world order.
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15 hours ago, ParkMan said:
Thanks all for the thoughts and comments - they are greatly appreciated.
I'm wondering if I'm seeing something of a trend here. People don't feel that councils are investing in Commissioners and other district volunteers. As a result, People are not motivated to volunteer and so you end up with a small group of "the faithful" who will volunteer.
We think there could be more success if:
- It was clear councils appreciated and recognized these district level vounteers.
- councils invested in training and development of these district level volunteers.
- council professionals placed a priority on recruiting district level volunteers.
It sounds like some districts may be doing an OK job at this and as such some districts are fielding more complete and happy teams.
Does this feel like something of the right direction?
We think there could be more success if:
- It was clear councils
appreciated and recognizedthese district level vounteers.Had recognition for district level volunteers raising more money $$
- councils
invested in training and developmentof these district level volunteers.Had training for district level volunteers to raise more money $$
- council professionals
placed a priority on recruitingdistrict level volunteers.Placed a priority on district level volunteers raising more money $$
There - fixed that for you 😀
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13 hours ago, fred8033 said:The program would do better if it focused more on getting the scouts outside and being active. Worry less about leadership and character. Instead, focus on being active. Then, leadership and character comes as a result of being active.
And there in lies the problem. Get out and do. Way to much focus on classroom merit badges, class instruction, checking boxes, adult leaders preventing experiential learning. How many times have we seen discussions on how to game the system so a Scout can get 20 nights camping? The goal should be to go out and do things, not just meet a metric. 20 nights should be simple to attain, and the Scout will learn volumes along the way.
We were looking at what an AOL needs to do in order to earn arrow of light now, apparently camp with a BSA troop is no longer a thing, visit yes, but they can camp with their patrol. But, looking at the "Adventures" the first multiple pages is about safety considerations;
- food allergies
- anaphylaxis and epi-pens,
- behavior around campfires,
- etc etc etc.
No doubt all good things, but this "safety moment" (and it's more than a moment) is front and center for every Adventure.
Safety is important, but that cannot be our reason for being. To a parent new to the program, is this the right "Go to Market" thinking? Then they move into a BSA Troop, and "GASP!!!", the youth do stuff on their own!!.
Scouts is OUTSIDE and doing stuff. The leadership training should be a less formal item and more something they experience and grow from. They will screw up, we as adult leaders can assist in making the course correction.
The simplicity of the Troop program is that a 12 year old whom ignores advice and input and gets wet when their tent leaks or sleeps cold when they did not bring the recommended gear LEARNS A LESSON from THEIR actions. They hopefully realize they need to do better. Later, maybe as they go off to college or first job, they can recall that all advice is not bad. They can help themselves be better.
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Make it a donation for goods, if BSA can do it with the grossly overpriced popcorn, then get some item of nominal value and then "sell" it for the donation. A dinner is always good, sell "stock" in the group that supports the Scouting program and have a stockholders dinner.
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17 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:
Back in the day, I carried a dime to call Mom or maybe my SM.
Taught Wilderness Survival back in the 70's at various summer camps. For those that recall those days we would make survival kits, the scouts would provide one of the metal band aid boxes. We would put in a few water proof matches, some fishing line and hooks, band aids, little mirror, etc. One item would in fact be a couple of dimes so if one was lost and made there way out to the real world, you could make a call. In the early 80's we changed that to putting quarters in to reflect Ma Bell's pricing updates.
Good memories. Actually found one of those a few years back in a box of old camping stuff that had been moved countless times over the years. The quarter still seems to be legal tender.
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4 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:
Yes compare, the second slide projected data for April 2024 and the first slide actual April, 2024 data. Ugh.
Are they different timeframes? I noticed that the April 2024 membership highlights shows about 775K in Cubs and Scouts. For the same noted population the graph seems to show 1,014K for 2024 (which could be a goal??) and 966K for 2023 which is 25% under the highlight figure.
I wonder if anyone questioned the figures or maybe they gave context in the meeting. Point is, if an organization is not clearly able to state where they are at a point in time, they do not have a realistic hope of moving forward in any cohesive manner.
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9 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:
FYI, found this from NAM 2024 presentation Change the Way We Work Together. (26 pages) by
Jeff Hunt, Assistant Chief Scout Executive. EVP, and Chief Operating Officer.
Gary Crum, Chair National Operations Leadership Committee
Freddy Norton Chair Membership and Relationships Committee had several slides.
Source:
https://nam.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2024/05/Change-the-Way-We-Work-Together.pdf
Well, that is optimistic at best. An organization is projecting 43% growth in 5 years, while they have experienced a 46% LOSS in the last 5 years.
Most businesses would not project that type of growth unless they are rolling out new technology, acquiring a competitor, or expanding into new territories previously untapped.
BSA (sorry SA) does not seem to be planning any of those efforts.
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11 hours ago, yknot said:
The actual membership number July of 2023 was somewhere around 875,000, so the drop isn't that dramatic. BSA/SA has always played a shell game with its membership numbers. The ones it generally announces on January 1 or thereabouts have always been inflated. It's better to compare mid year numbers year to year. There has been a substantial drop but it's in the few tens of thousands combined.
Calling what BSA publishes on membership being a "shell game" is very polite. The BSA (sorry SA) has not published the "Report to the Nation" in several years, at least in the format as in year's past. That whole pesky Trustworthy thing not being observed.
Typically when a company does not send out actual figures, the reason is it's bad news. With the revamped membership registration process, the move to coed (it's not a pilot folks), and the emphasis to push out any current leaders not embracing the move to coed (to make room for all the leaders waiting in the wings); while a very worthwhile and needed program, the future is not bright.
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19 hours ago, fred8033 said:
Sometimes districts sign up current unit members as unit commissioners to get UC coverage in all the district units. This enables districts to look good, but adds zero value.
Our district wanted our unit to name someone to be the "commissioner" for our unit. We pointed out that this seemed to be just a pencil whip of the position. What value would someone currently active with the unit bring to the unit? Shouldn't a commissioner be a neutral party to help and advise the unit as needed?
District did not get back with us.
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In theory this is good, but the challenge will be what happens in practice with the information. If the anonymous report is not handled confidentially there could be issues. If this report were to move forward with the authorities, not sure how this would square with the 4th and 6th amendments. The anonymous accuser will hopefully need to be interviewed and vetted before anything should be done.
BSA (sorry SA) National acting on what could be unfounded and non-verified accusations is the other side of the pendulum that swung all the way to not reporting to authorities and trying to handle internally. Cue up more lawsuits down the road.
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7 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:
Update 7/11/2024:
Today, 2024 National Chief of the Order of the Arrow, David Gosik, presented Congressman Pete Sessions with a copy of the 2024 Report to the Nation. Congressman Sessions also was introduced to BSA CEO Roger Krone.
Source:
https://www.instagram.com/congressmanpetesessions/p/C9QjCNHyOme/
Curious what the actual membership numbers are. BSA (Sorry SA) has not been overly transparent of late with that data
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On 6/1/2024 at 8:23 AM, Eagle1993 said:
Just one example of transparency. UK Scout Association annual report attached.
BSAs last report 2019 is here
UK Scout Association has 3.7% youth and increasing vs Scouting USA has 1.2% and falling.
Scouter - we will tell you what you need to know and when you need to know it....and be happy we are engaging with the peasant leaders at all
Signed
BSA National Leadership
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The best method we have found is rally points along the way. We all depart at the same time and maybe meet at some designated break spot, then meet at the next logical point.
For our winter trip this past January departed the CO, met about an hour down the road (got outside the major city we live near), then another hour to our first trip stop. We departed there a few hours later and the meetup was an hour down the road for the camping spot.
On heading home day met an hour down the road for a tour stop at a historic place, then an hour or so up the road and after we hit the main highway, stopped at a large center with a beaver as a mascot. Then the 1.5 hours home to the CO.
At the designated stops keep up with everyone, also we have a text group for trips and have our co-pilots handle the exchanges
If our camping spot is more remote, off the path, we meet as close to there as possible on the way in, then convoy the last few miles.
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Mere Good Presentation versus Requirement?
in Advancement Resources
Posted
No more and no less, use the tools and requirements
Sadly there are units that feel the need to put "their" spin on projects. Must have CAD drawings, Must build something, Must put in XX hours, Must have XX Scouts work on the project, Must, Must, Must. While the intentions may be good, as has been noted, these local add-ons do not adhere to G2A. How to politely navigate that deviation can be a challenge