Eagle94-A1

Eagle90, I', sorry to hear about the loss of camps, but don't blame the Cubs. Blame who is coming up with these ridiculous standards that are causing camps to be closed: national.

OldScout, Try this link: http://nocbay.com/learningcircle/index.asp Look down try numbers 56 through 58

Stosh, Actually with my boys, it was SWMBO that was insistent initially with them going with her. Now she is good to go. Heck last Cub Camp out she made the comment, "You and me are in camp giving out [Halloween] candy. The boys are somewhere in camp. They know where we are." The only problem I had with a Webelos doing a 50 miler with the Boy Scouts (way back in the day and day was a leader) was that after that trip, the weekend trips and summer camps were boring after that trip. He dropped out of the troop he joined, but did eventually join the law enforcement Explorer post.

One thing to remember, Cub Scout camping is FAMILY camping (emphasis, not shouting). Yep Cubs should be able to handle it. But the pre-Cub age youth may be an issue. I know the wife took my boys in the bathrooms with her when they were not Cubs. On a different note, is BWCA still or running water? If' it's still water, and the Cubs pass a swim test, good to go. If running water, NOPE!

Sometimes you need to adapt, improvise, and overcome. Public facilities is one example. Another would be the emergency situation where we had everyone, in two rooms. All the youth were in one room, all the adults, including females, were in another. It was one instance where I was glad son got sick and went home prior to the storm. you could go swimming in the tents!

The anti-LDS attitudes is as bad as the anti-Catholic attitudes I've experienced. I even had one potential leader, write a very long, abusive letter about he and his family will not join Scouts since they let Catholics in it. Better off without him.

Ditto what Fred said. We had a volunteer in a similar situation, ID theft victim, who personally delivered the paperwork to the council office.

Mixed on this one. As others have mentioned, the turnover rate doesn't lead to a stable, quality program. I have had several experiences with playing phone tag and trying to get the unit leaders so I can get info to them, invite them to RT, or see if they want to have a OA election and camp promo. And Some of the meetings I've been to resemble more babysitting or sports than Scouting. But I did have a positive experience with one troop. Part of that was the LDS bishop was very involved in Scouting, serving as the district chairman. One thing I've have heard from LDS scouters is that the further away from Salt Lake City, the looser the program.

Showers? SHOWERS?!?!?!?!?!?!?! WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING SHOWERS In all seriousness, you're good to go. And having the pre-Cub age siblings in the female bathrooms is a common thing I've seen. I just wish my council would get with the program. Two of the camps that Cubs use for camping do not have showers.

My old troop always took the manufacturer's recommendation and divided by half so you could also store gear in the tent. So a 4 man tent became 2 with packs. 8 man tent became 4 with gear. Now my son's troop has tents with a vestibule. So they can have 3 inside like the manufacturer suggests, and the gear is in the vestibule. On a different note, may I suggest you take Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skills as these questions are covered in that training. Also some of these questions can be answered by your older scouts. Finally, WELCOME TO DA FORUMS!

On reflection, my oldest is on addicted to all things British: money, tea, Doctor Who, etc. Says he want to immigrate there when he is olde enough. I'm thinking let him save his money and do the program I did to give him a taste of living in Britain. It opened my eyes to how good we got it over here.

Is he in the OA? The OA has programs at the HA bases where you bust butt for 1 week, then have fun 1 week. http://adventure.oa-bsa.org/index.php# Or you can staff the HA bases for the summer. While it might not be HA, one program I did that was litterally the trip of a lifetime when I was college was the European Camp Staff Program. http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/International/ecamp.aspx I spent 11 weeks in the UK working at 2 scout camps. Free food, free shelter, and now 30% of travel expenses reimbursed. I saved for 2 years to go and spent approx $3500 20 years ago. A good chunk of that was I went to the WSJ with the Brits though. I worked with Scouts from all over: Finland, Switzerland, Australia, Croatia, Russia, and of course the UK. I met Scouts from Belgiums, Dutch, Germans, Irish, and Americans at the camp. Unfortunately, one of the camps closed, and it was the one I had a blast at. I repelled off the Cliffs of Dover, went kayaking and rafting in the English Channel, went sight seeing on my time and with a troop to France that had an extra space. The second camp, Youlbury International Scout Campsite, is the oldest continually used scout camp in the world. I had fun there too, but I didn't stay there as long and I also had some time off to go to the WSJ. And don't forget, the WSJ in Japan this year. http://www.scouting.org/worldjamboree.aspx

I am less than a mile at the moment. There is talk of district realignment in my council, so that may change. If we get merged, and it's where I think It will be, It may be doable. BUT for another district that will be in the merger, it will be over an hour 1 way.

Stupid question, but here it goes anyway. Doesn't WB21C teach the Patrol Method? I admit I have not gone through WB, either the old or new courses. Nor have I staffed NYLT. But I went through the old Brownsea 22 course, and staffed JLTC back in the day. The patrol methods was instilled in the patrols from day one. Having outdoor activities to do and compete, cooking meals, etc were part of the expereince that created the patrols.

Recording stories is a good one. This may or may not be appropriate, you gotta know the individuals involved and their view on the matter. Have some type of ceremony where you thank him for all he's done. A little "roasting" to make it light hearted and fun may be in order. But again, you gotta know your audience. For me, I would not mind the funny stories.

I'm sorry to hear that. What are some ideas that the PLC want to do? What about any troop alumni? When an active and beloved UC passed away, we had Scouts perform as a color guard. Also had a former youth of his on the unit level give a brief eulogy on him and his love of Scouting.

RS, I too would like to know who wrote it. My personal favorites include the camp museum is more important than the camp fire ring. Out of all of the camps I've been to, only 1 has had a museum that I can remember. And that was Youlbury International Scout Campsite in the U.K. And considering it's the oldest continually used Scout camp in the world, I think it's justified. Another U.K. camp I was at was in the process of building one. I got to look at their collection of WSJ patches they were going to display. They had originals from Arrowpark up to Korea. SM, The issue I have is that no where in the instructions does it say that a camp does not need certain structures. And it has been reported anecdotally that camps have been shut down as a result of the NCAP, irregardless of usage stats.

Stosh, Letting the boys pick their own patrols is what I'm talking about. Some folks say that all new scouts MUST be put into a NSP; all Scouts over a certain rank ( I keep hearing First Class) MUST me in "Experienced Patrols," etc. The youth have little to no input into the matter. One thing I liked about my troop growing up, every 6 months when elections occurred, we got the chance to switch patrol IF WE WANTED TO (all caps emphasis) I admit, my troop is guilty this. When folks join, they go to a NSP, or as the case is now the 2nd NSP. When they hit First Class, they automatically move into a different patrol. We don't have a Venture patrol yet because we don't have the age or expereince. Only good thing the adults did in the situation above IMHO is saty out of the way and let the PLC decide how they were going to divide the 14 new scouts into the two NSPs. All of the Scouts who crossed over or transferred into the troop became the 2nd NSP. They left the current NSP alone minus one Scout who was about to go to the "experienced" patrol. Adults suggested appointing him troop guide, but SPL was adamant in not appointing him troop guide, but giving him a chance to run for PL since "being voted PL would mean a lot to him. If he doesn't get elected PL, then appoint him TG."

Tahawk. My comment was in regards to how some folks think you have to do everything the exact way BSA states in the current literature. But sometimes, in some situations, the current BSA program materials will not work, and that you do need to use ideas from older BSA materials. Mixed aged patrols, which is not discussed in the current literature but is in older literature, was the example I've given. Having youth sign off on advancement requirements is another example I can give. My only worry is is units that do not use the patrol method. As for clear communications form national, only time will tell.

Yes, adaptable is a better word. But "Semper Gumby" sounds so much better. Agree with you. I like to call being a SM is an art, not a science. There is a multitude of factors involved in scouting: from resources, abilities of leaders, abilitiies of scouts, CO support, loctaion, ad nauseum. Every troop is different. Unfortunately I've met folks who think that what is expressed in the current BSA literature IS the only way of doing it, even if it will be detrimental to the program in some situations. And if you tell them otherwise, it's blasphemy. There are some folks who don't realize that there are a variety of ways, all legit, to deliver the program. Take the entire New Scout Patrol, Expereinced Patrol, Venture Patrol set up of today. I've met folks who have told me you cannot have Mixed-Aged Patrols because it is not in BSA literature. Yet for the first 62 years of the BSA,, that is how it was done. Then for the next 17 years, you had Mixed-Aged Patrols and the Leadership Corps. it wasn't until 1989 that NSPs and the current format came out, and many troops still ran the old way, because for them NSP didn't work as well as Mixed-Aged patrols.

Here's my $.02 worth. 1) There is no need for an SPL unless you have 2 or more patrols. SPL is just that: the SENIOR patrol leader. If you only have 1 patrol, then you only have 1 PL. 2) I do belive the unofficial motto of the BSA is "SEMPER GUMBY" OR "ALWAYS FLEXIBLE." One of the most important things I learned in Scouting is that sometimes the best made plans fall apart, and you sometimes have to think "on your feet" or "outside the box" to solve problems. Best example I can give is finding out our of our camping gear was destroyed the night before we were taking Webelos on a campout. We really thought on our feet that night to prevent cancelling that camp out! 3) In regards to patrols working together, if the situation calls for it, then I am for it. Best example I can give on this is my son's troop at the moment. They have 1 "expereinced" patrol, and now 2 NSPs. PLC has the "experienced" patrol members working with the NSPs members during the instruction period. 4) Sometimes the higher up the food chain you get, the you remember about being at the bottom. Best example is some of the pros I've met and worked with. They forget that every "number" is a youth that we are making an impact on. 5) Also in regards top national, sometimes they talk to the wrong "experts." Instead of going to folks in the field and getting their thoughts and opinions, the consult outside experts who don't have a clue as to what Scouting really is. I saw a lot of that when I worked for supply: folks coming up with crazy things to sell that have little to no practical purpose for being sold. BUT in regards to 5 national is slowly getting better, and I give them credit for that. When the info came out that ALL Cubs needed to switch to the new requirement as of June 1 2015, folks at national did listen to us in the field and make the option for those current Webelos to continue using the current AOL requirements. 6) In regards to "eating our own," I know in my own case I am tired and frustrated at some of the things I am hearing and seeing from new leaders, especially ones that I helped train. Especially right now. The leader that I planned ITOLS around and told me "it's too cold to camp" is now posting about how it's perfect camping weather right now.

Qwazse, THANKFULLY that's the case with our two camps. One reverts back to the family ( who will turn the property into "McMansions" like the ones that are currently being built around the camp). The other camp goes to a local university. But I do know of one instance where the SE talked a trust into donating ownershipof the camp to the council. Within 3-6 months of getting the deed, he had the camp sold off. Sad thing is, the camp that all the money was sunk into ended up getting severely damaged by a hurricane. That camp's damage was so bad, an oil company was able to make the case that the land was no longer of value, and got emminent domain used to install a pipeline smack through the camp. SO that camp is completely useless now. So the scouts lost 2 camps within a year or two.

RS, In 2012, national decided tho create the National Camp Accreditation Program (NCAP) to standardize all scout camp across the national. Here are some links about the NCAP Main link to overall program http://www.scouting.org/Home/OutdoorProgram/CampAccreditation.aspx Camp Facilities Evaluation Tool http://www.scouting.org/filestore/Outdoor%20Program/pdf/430-085.pdf While I do beleive that camps need to be maintained, not every scout camp needs to meet those standards IMHO. My council has some primitive camps that have minimal structures on it. They do not need welcoming centers, dining halls, etc.