Eagle94-A1

BERSTIE,

1) WELCOME TO DA FORUMS!

All,

if you red my question on how to your units conduct elections and appoint positions, then you have a bit of an update.

Elections, which should have been easy and smooth, turned into a long convoluted process. Long story short, you cannot nominate yourself, you need to be nominated for office. AND everyone seemed like they needed to reciprocate by nominating the person who nominated them for the same position

And it's kinda a "tradition" that you don't vote for yourself. At least that's what my son told me. Found out last nite when the unit did OA elections and we were talking about them. That and some other things the OA didn't do or say, but that's a different story.

An aside, never plan a unit election the same nite as a Cross Over ceremony, when the bulk of your election team are on the ceremony team as well.

BACK ON TOPIC.

While the SPL and  PLS were elected, unfortunately the rest of them were appointed by the SM. Folks were nominated for the various positions, but he appointed them. Not too happy about that as well, especially since I know one appointment was made because  an ASM plans on doing the bulk of the work since he is a gear junkie.

Campout this weekend was OK, but we had issues.  new SPL didn't plan anything because the SM told him he would take care of it. I personally was not happy about that, and we did have some bored Scouts and visiting Webelos. Not how SPL or I envisioned it.

NSP had some arguing about stuff bought, not bought, and lost. I had to intervene to prevent a parent from going off on some of the Scouts. Long story short, Dad worked with scout prior to the trip and told the scout he should get some clarifications on items on the list to make sure the son bought the right stuff. Son did get clarification, and he shopped for the list as specified. Dad was the one who took him shopping, but did not interfere. Again  if it wasn't on the list, the Scout did not buy it. When the patrol started getting ticked off and call the scout an idiot, dad almost went ballistic. I jumped in and worked with them. I'd rather they get a talk about how things work and Scout Spirit from me than an angry parent.

An aside; funny thing is the guy calling folks "idiot" was the one who when he was suppose to shop, grandma did it for him, went overbudget buying stuff not on the list or more food than the list stated, and ended up paying out of pocket for a good bit of it. And about 1/3 of the food was thrown away because it was too much or improperly stored.

Dinner was "interesting" in that for the most part the scout were left alone. Very hard for the parent to do and one of the ASMs. One idea to distract adults, playing card games. that kept them busy a good bit. Kids had some issues, but dealt with it themselves. Adults got involved when it was discovered the NSP  didn't have cleaning supplies. We did a trade: cleaning supllies in exchange for them doing our dishes. The adults were happy with that, but don't think the Scouts were.

The NSP also had problems in that the duty roster they came up with was incomplete, missing information, and the TG and PL were having issues with who was suppose to do what. While they eventually got that settled, they  did get a reminder that the duty roster needs to be complete. Frustrating that the TG needed a reminder about the completeness of menus. But glad that he worked out issues that were arising in regards to cooking and KP. Yep, one Scout wanted to be a slacker and not do KP properly.

Morning was a charlie foxtrot. took the NSP 4 hours to cook, do KP, and strike camp. It was bad enough that parents were showing up to pick up the kids, and one of them got involved. He's is now moving from WDL to some troop position, so it's going to get interesting. Need to get him trained and OUT OF THE SCOUTS' HAIR.  He was the one who bought the food for the patrol previously. He was complaining about the chaos that is the  NSP and has jumped in once before.

On a positive note, they were able to camp spread out. They cooked under the same shelter, which caused some headaches, but overall they were doing stuff as patrols.

We got a lock in next month. Because of the improper food storage situation and issues with KP 2 months ago, and almost this weekend before the TG nipped it in the bud, we have a retired health inspector coming in to talk about the importance of storing food properly and cleaning properly.  I'm hoping it has some "cool" photos and isn't boring lecture. That was adult driven.

But after rock climbing, we will be having a "field day." Troop spent money getting supplies for the Scouts, and as I've mentioned, some of the supplies were not taken care of and thrown away, or are missing. Patrols have not kept inventories, despite repeated suggestions to do so. While the Field Day was essentially an adult decision, we do have buy in from most of the Scouts as they are sick of other patrols borrowing stuff and not returning it.

And I think that's another issue. Instead of always  having three patrols, we have been combining them from time to time based upon numbers. In fact I want to say the last time the NSP used their patrol box was the camp out I got injured at.

Long journey ahead.

In regards to lawsuits against COs for choosing their own leaders since July, I have no idea.  I do know that there have been several prior to that, and not just based upon sexuality. There was a lawsuit against one CO by a parent because the CO wanted their members in leadership roles in the pack. The parent was not a member of the congregation, nor a member of the denomination and did sue.

While it can be hard to be in that situation, I'm in it to a degree at the moment, I do understand where the COs are coming from. I also know the importance of having a good CO to UNITS relationship. In my current situation, I'm in the background supporting my Scouts to the best of my ability.

SP,

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I would need to get recertified. And I don't have the paid time off to do it.  Heck, the troop's leaders were discussing who would be going to summer camp last nite at camp. One made the comment it's a pity I'm dealing with the paperwork, but can't go.

 I'm so sorry to hear about this. A few thoughts.

1) Do you really think the anti Scout led leader will remain? If yes, AND your son is affected to the point of quitting, then move to another trip.

If not, you may need stay and help out as best you can and take on the repsonsibility when anti-Scout led ASM fumbles.

2) If step down, be supportive of your son and look to other areas to support Scouting.

Good luck.

My cert is expired and I need to go back.  I admit I never dealt with the certification aspect as PD. We got enough issues that I don't want to worry about a conditional certification and getting a waiver.

Jackdaws,

I'm willing to do anything EXCEPT go to NCS again and take a week off. I do not have the vacation time to do that anymore.  I still have copies of everything I've done. I can essentially hand someone an entire program on a silver platter. All that would need to be done is update it to the new advancement, i.e. these activities meet these requirements. Heck the old PD just dropped off all the supplies at my house for storage. I do not want that stuff going into the maw that is the council service center. It will either be lost, damaged, or sent to the main camp never to be seen by Cub Scouts again. Already had to have a DE get involved in getting my supplies once from summer camp. They didn't order their supplies in a timely manner, and tried to "requisition" mine!

 Hardest part would be recruiting folks. I hate to ask someone  to do something that I can't do.

Desertrat and Qwasze,

Kinda hard to let go of something you busted your butt to improve. Our "Down Period" lasted over 10 years. I remember being a DE and going to day camp to support it and it only had 7 Cubs attending. Yes, you heard me 7!  By the time I first staffed it in 2009, we had 22. We had 3 good years, then in decline again. I served in the background trying to pull it together, and became the PD again at the last minute when the CD was "fired" for not attending council day camp meetings. But since I've stepped back a second time, it has faded fast and is essentially flatlined Yes, it's been hard on me emotionally because of the decline.

Desertrat and SeattlePioneer,

The DE, his boss the DD, and the District Chair all know about the situation.  I hate to say it, but the DC, and most of the committee, is more focused on Boy Scout than Cub Scouts.  I'm actually the only CS rep to show up at the meetings. Others feel it's a waste of time.  As for the DE, he is brand new, and to be honest I believe he will be assigned summer duties at the council's HA base. He is NCS certified for that program since he worked there 3 summer prior to being a DE. As for the DD, don't know about except he is extremely overworked managing 3 large districts by himself while sharing the DE with another DD ( don't ask, our professional org is screwed up with DEs covering multiple districts, in some cases multiple service areas)

JoeBob,

 That's a good idea. Possibly evening or weekend activites may be better. Less paperwork to deal with. And wouldn't have to deal with NCAP.

RS,

I wish I could take another vacation! Hopefully by the time 2017 comes around, I will have enough time to do so.

I admit I have not been active as a knight for a while, so I do not know what is going on.

I can say this though. The KofC are not under direct parish control, but do have control from religious authorities. Although they do a lot for the local parish. Some parishes do not have a KofC council, and some KofC councils will have there own club houses separate from the parish property. I know that one KofC parish I was in had such a club house, and that is where the troop met. KofC viewed Scouting as part of their ''patriotism'' obligation, and only a few Scouts were members of the Catholic Church.

That said, I have mixed emotions on this. Taking it at face value, I see where the focus should be on the church and its members, so the move has a non-legal reason for it. But I also see where it can be seen as a move to protect the KofC from lawsuits since they may been seen as a civic group. So the move maybe how the KofC will protect themselves and their obligation to follow Catholic orthodoxy, while continueing to support Scouting.

One concern I have is anti-Catholic bias and bigotry. You would be surprised at how many folks do not associate the KofC with the Catholic Church. They would let their kids join a KofC chartered unit, but ''hell will freeze over before I go to meetings at a [)(+!¦% Catholic Church.''

Stosh,

By professional, I meant anyone with high level knowledge, skills, abilities, and certifications who have a legal obligation to perform tthe needed skill.

I think the day camp in my district will be dead this year. Don't know what happened, but something did occur between the CD and the PD. PD's job has him traveling all over, so he stated he will not be back. CD, said after last year's expereince, he ain't doing it again. Said he didn't get a lot support and cannot do it all by himself.

So with less than 7 months, 4 months to NCS, we have no CD, PD, staff. NOTHING,

When this was announced at the district meeting, folks were looking at me to pick it up. I staffed it for 6 years, being PD for 3. But I do not have the vacation time to do it. After being out for 7.5 weeks,  I need to save up my paid time off all over again.

And to be honest, I have no idea who to try and recruit. The CD I worked under was a real micromanager who turned people off. The guy who replaced her wasn't a planner. He was a "seat of your pants" type. So there was no recruiting for folks to run stuff. Heck the last year I worked, I was suppose to be with my Tiger and leading a combined Tiger/Wolf den. Because he didn't recruit anyone for shooting sports, I spent more time on the ranges than I did with my Tiger.  

I wasn't at day camp last year, but I have been told by many that it was unorganized chaos. A lot of complaints. After the past 2 years I don't know if it's worth saving or not.

I would say go ahead and put him in, but after filling out one of those forms recently, you need their approval to complete the form.

My understanding is that UNLESS they are professionals, i.e lifeguards, EMTs, etc, ANY lifesaving action, no matter how big or small can qualify. I know the form for the Honor Medal and Medal of Merit is the same, so don't let that scare you.

There is an approval process, don't know how long that will take, but hopefully less than 2 years. I would really like to attend the ceremony if the guy who pulled me out of the ocean back in August is approved. And he will be in this area only for 2 more years.

I know there are a lot of complaints about some of the stuff being built at camps. Heck I was ticked off at the pool that was built at my old camp, when we have a gorgeous man-made lake with built to Safe Swim Defense specs waterfront. I thought it was a waste of money.

BUT, I found out that there are a lot of laws, both federal and state, that are being pushed on camps. That was why my old camp had to build a pool.

That's why all BSA camps have to deal with the National Camp Accreditation Program, which replaced the various National Standards. A lot of the improvements are being mandated.

 You have heard me say several times before that the adults have to learn twice as much twice as fast to build a good boy run program that doesn't get in the boys way. Once you (the adults) understand that learning is part of the experience and that it is OK to change, it's starts to become more fun and less frustrating.

 

Definitely true. I've need to relearn some things about younger Scouts. I've spent too much time on the district level working with the OA or adults and on the Cub level, that I need to relearn working with new Boy Scouts.  sat down and realized it's been essentially 11 years sicne I worked with a troop as an ASM.

_{I was responding to this comment. "Just get everone working on the new requirements ASAP."} 

_{I admit I may be overly concerned about the rank changes because of a situation that happened in my district. We had a Scout get denied a Life BOR, which affected him getting Eagle before 18. Long story short, the troop he was originally in allowed him to use the pre-2009 BSHB requirements  that were in effect when he joined, and did not tell him about changes to the various rank requirements. It was only after that troop went to Trail's Life, and he joined another troop that he found out that there was still more to do Life. It was discovered at the SM Conference. This delay caused him to miss the "6 months as a Life..." Eagle requirement as his Life BOR was at the 17 years 7 months mark.}

_{Thankfully he received a waiver, earned his Eagle, and is active as an ASM with the troop, and one of the chapter vice-chiefs.}  

I disagree with having everyone starting on the new requirements. You do have Scouts out there working on T-2-1 under one set of requirements. It would not be fair for those Scouts to have them work  and then all of a sudden have the requirements change on them. A transition period is needed.

I admit, I lament how the OA has changed over the years. I know that when I was more active with the OA, I tried to bring back a sense of ''best of the best'' in regards to the OA. I also worked with the youth to get a good program going. Yes we worked hard, but I also wanted us to play hard.

Some of the downfall I blame national. I still do not llike the current election process. There is an expectation by many that everyone gets in. Heck had 1 SM ticked off at me and the election team because we ''scared off half my Scouts.''' Sad thing is, this was a former lodge chief and section officer who wasmad at us.

But I also need to blame some of the idiots before me, who went overboard. Yes there were legitmate cases of hazing that occured. Yes someone did get their shoulder dislocated at a TAPOUT CEREMONY, which led to a lawsuit, and lawyers reviewinghow things were done andbeingdelared possible child abuse and hazing.

But what really hit home with me was talking to my son. Unlike when I was his age and First Class, he could care less about getting into the OA as it isn't a big deal for him. Considering he's been a PL, SPL, and nominated for a second SPL term (he declined and wentfor TG) I think he will get elected the first time. That is the only thing he likes, the possibility of getting in on the first ballot compared to me and getting in on the 3rd ballot..

I LIKE IT!  Just beware of the Nazgul.

If that were true the requirements would reflect that mission by tying eligibility to those goals AND allowing SMs to hold back anyone who does not meet those requirements.

SMs DO have that ability already. They have the right to deny someone eligibility if they don't have Scout Spirit.  But in my experience the SM rarely does this. In all my years in the OA, only 1 SM regretted allowing a Scout on the ballot.

Your lodge and chapter may vary.  One of the advantages for adults in the OA is fellowship. Great to bounce ideas to problems at folks. And for me, I was very active in American Indian Affairs as a youth, so I can really get involved with that.

In regards to Desertrat

Speaking as a long-time OA member ('76), I think the OA is slowly dying.   Pockets are still alive, but not many.

 

Seems the scouts just aren't interested in it.   They could take it or leave it. 

 

I know organizations change.   But I think the beginning of the end was when the OA changed from focusing on electing the best scouts/campers to emphasizing an "honor society."     The OA flap was a badge of honor.   

 

The old hallmarks were:

1.  Tough to get elected.   I think the change in election policy in the mid 1990s is the start of the OA's downfall. I didn't get in until the 3 ballot and I didn't complain. Now, I've seen folks quit Scouting b/c they didn't get in.

2.  A difficult ordeal. DON'T GO THERE! I remember three notches and you have to come back. I've read where  it use to be 1 notch and you're out. One Ordeal I attended, had an adult candidate complain the entire time. Couldn't send him home as that was "hazing," and had to remove him and do a 1 man candidate work party. As soon as the Ordeal Ceremony was completed, he dashed.

 

3.  True appreciation for Native American culture and heritage. To many "Hollywood Indian" stereotypes. Although National is starting a push for lodges to "go local" and do their own research. Big proponent of that, but know first hand that fighting the stereotypes is extremely difficult.

 

4.  Being proud to serve on camporee staffs, ceremony teams, cleaning the latrines at camp...service was key.

5.  There were secrets.  But you gotta be elected to learn them.

 

Society and scouting have changed a bit.  I don't think it's particularly tough to get elected anymore.   The ordeal--varies.   Native American aspect:   some scouts are still enthusiastic, most don't care.  Service?   Not so much.   I see alot of OA chapter/lodge fun events, and a huge leap in the OA patch design industry.   Secrets?  No!  The horror!  

 

The OA isn't that big a deal any more.   I think a few decades ago, the BSA purposefully decided to downplay the mystique and honor-camper aspect.  

 

...mission accomplished.

That may be part of the problem. When my son joined the troop, they doubled, creating a true NSP for the first time. First TG was 14. So age maybe a factor. But another factor may be the SM. SM is old school, and was talked into doing NSP by the ASM who was suppose to take over. SM is used to mixed aged patrols.

And to be honest, I'm not too thrilled with NSPs to date. But I also realize that we haven't had an effective TG to do the job properly. SO this is a learning expereince for all.

It sounds as if your TG isn't ready for doing his job with the new patrol and is seeking support from an adult.  I would suggest if this is happening on a regular basis, more forethought needs to be put into the process.  One scout, Den Chief for the 2nd Year Webelos boys (12 month commitment with National Award as the goal).  When they cross over into Boy Scouts, he merely continues on (without the "DL" adult) and becomes the new TG. 

TG is brand new to the position, so he is getting a feel for it. Plus we never really had a functioning TG before IMHO, so he has no role model to follow.  My son's TG didn't do a thing, and the previous TG ended up getting elected PL of the NSP. And that was a "challenge." Considering it was his first night really working with them, my observations are he's OK. Needs some time, and adults out of his hair.

You just have to keep reminding the adults until it sticks. Most eventually get it. This isn't a fact that you can tell them once and they get it. It's an idea with lots of ramifications. Once they start understanding how all these ramifications fit together then they're quite helpful. It took a couple of years since I was starting from scratch but now I have adults that get it. If you can find them a job to do that's great but this is really all about training the adults.

This is going to be the challenge, especially since I honestly think one of the CS leaders is reliving his Scout Days with the troop. One of the two adults who interfered  I can talk to and get to see the light. The other reminds me of when I was a brand new ASM, and couldn't get out of "Boy Scout" mode

and into "Scouter mode."

As the song goes, 'It's gonna take time....patience and time to do it right."

The SM needs to find something for the meddling adults to do that doesn't directly involve the patrols.  I was almost that meddling Cub leader almost 6 years ago when my oldest first crossed over to Boy Scouts.  Thankfully, the SM at the time found me a job to do--Advancement chair.  I can remember about a month in, hearing the New Scout Patrol (my former Webelos Den for the most part) fumbling about with menu planning.  Thankfully I was seated at the computer entering in data, so it slowed me down enough to realize that I need to stay away from them

I'm actually working on that.  Any ideas to keep the adults away will help! I'm actually thinking snacks in another room for the adults to socialize. IF we can find another room.

Kick them all out!  If the boys are leading what purpose do the adults have in the meeting?

 

I find that 95% of my job as SM is keeping adults out of the boys' hair. 

 

"The boys can't do it without adult help, mentoring, directing and guiding!" .....   "How would you know?  You've never given them the chance to try."

 

"The boys were struggling with the problem, so I offered up some help."    .....  "And you thus took away their opportunity to work it out on their own, by emphasizing they weren't good enough to do it on their own."

 

"If left alone the boys will never be comfortable asking for help."  ....  "Then that's a problem they're going to need to work out on their own."

 

Occasionally the boys come up with a solution to their problems that I think is a really good idea.  Most of the time they don't and they struggle until they get something that will get them through the situation.  I really don't think they are capable of coming up with brilliant ideas the first time around, but I'm not going to have my adults running around making sure they don't fail. 

 

My lesson for leadership for my boys is: "Take care of your boys."  My lesson for adult leadership is: "Make opportunities for the boys, don't take them away."

TG suggested one adult so that if the SPL has a question, he won't have to track someone down in another room. And he doesn't want the SM because he gets involved too easily. It's trying to figure out which adult since ALL of us, myself included, have butted in on occasion.

New Scouts for 2016 *must* use the 2016 requirements unless they officially cross over before January 1, 2016.

WWWWWEEEEELLLLLL...

...my troop is telling the new Crossovers next week to wait until January to get the new handbooks and use the new requirements.  We only have a Christmas Party between when they join on the 18th, and the first real meeting for them on Jan. 4th.

I can sympathize.  I've done FOS presentations and I try to keep them short, sweet, and to the point.  I admit I do take up about 10 minutes total.  I give a brief talk on where FOS goes and I have Scouts handing out the brochures to the parents.  Scouts are usually still handing out brochures ort picking up completed one after I'm finished talking. Thats about 7-9 minutes.

Just before everything is over, I ask for another minute or 2 to say how much was raised, and more importantly THANK EVERYONE.  

IF the FOS patches are available, I'll stayy afterwards and hand those out to those who qualify. We give out special FOS CSPs for those who give a specified amount. Basically what it costs the council per scout to operate.

1) When is Cross Over? If it's later this month, I'd wait.  If it's next year,  I'd start attending troop meetings now.  The troop I am with has had the pack's 5th grade Webelos attending our troop meetings for about a month now. Some of it was to finish up requirements, i.e. attend a Boy Scout troop meeting, but for the most part they are done and were waiting for the 6 months since finishing 4th grade.

2) What set of requirements will you be using the 2015 ones or 2016 ones?

"Train 'em. Trust 'em. LET THEM LEAD!" William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt

Last night's meeting was a very good one. OK, the meeting was more patrol oriented than formal skills instruction then patrol meetings, but considering some of the challenges the troop has faced, I'm very happy.

As most  of you know, the troop was restarted and has had little adult mentoring of the youth.  Long story short, only 1 consistant leader in poor health until a few months ago. Since switching to an ASM role in June, I've been trying to work with the SPL and PLC and get them more involved in planning, operations, etc. Frustrating and challenging with previous SPL. BUT some of the youth noticed what was trying to be done and are taking heart.

We had our annual planning conference last week. I know, usually it's done in Aug/Sept, but this troop does it based on the charter year. SPL took the bull by the horns and ran it. Yes we has some adults interfere, and I was one of them, but for the most part,  our intereference was " you do realize that you have 2 campouts 2 weeks apart" and ideas on where to camp since we do not have a Where to Go Camping book.  Overall we got ourselves a good year ahead. May not be camping 12 months, we got the traditional lock in for next month, and we may have another next November aboard a ship. But we are doing something every month.

BUT what has made me happy was the meeting last night.  I've been working with the SPL to give him ideas on what to do and how things should be done. I gave him a sample meeting plan  to follow, and he came up with on on his own HOWEVER, found out at the last minute the meeting plan was not feasible du to an adult not being able to get the equipment tothe meeting. SO the SPL adapted and overcame. As mentioned above, the troop meeting turned into a more patrol oriented one rather than a skills one.  And it turned out to be a good thing as the patrols worked on some much needed items. 

Next two meeting are pretty much set in stone and require little planning. We have a Crossover to attend next week, and Christmas party the follwoing week. BUT HE HAS ALREADY STARTED WORKING ON THE JANUARY 4TH MEETING.  May not seem like a big deal to some, but for this troop it's a first. He's also gotten buy in from the older Scouts to do skills instruction. In fact, once they finished everything they needed to do, they were practicing their pioneering skills so they can teach the rest of the troop in January.

I am hoping this continues with the Scouts.

Next step is to get the adults out of the way. Yes we had two adults get a little to involved in the new scout patrol. Ok 3 adults, as I stepped in twice to remind them they need to listen to their troop guide, and a second time to tell them they need to focus on s specific item. But the other two adults, both former Cub Scout leaders, got a little too involved into their meeting.  I'm thinking the Troop Guide's idea of kicking out all the adults except one is a good one. Problem is, he doesn't know which adult to keep since we are all troublemakers to a degree.