Eagle94-A1

How good a relationship do you have with the troop, and how much work is left to get AOL?  If they are only waiting for the 6 months since completing 4th grade,  see if the troop will let them visit meetibgs and go camping. Son's troop has an open door policy, and Webelos can go on any trip allowable by BSA. We had 2 Webelos do hiking while the troop worked on backpacking and hiking.

Another thing if they are chomping at the bit. Cross them over as soon as they are 10.5 or in December.

Keep it up.  I had a similar discussion between BORs with one of the patrols last nite.  IMHO, our society has conditioned them to follow the adults' lead, and they have a hard time comprehending that they can do what they want, within BSA guidelines, as a patrol.

1)  WELCOME TO DA FORUMS!  (And yes, I am screaming at you at the top of my lungs like I would any new Cub Scout leader   )

2)  Guide to Insignia and Awards is your answer,  http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide.aspx

3) Regarding stars, you got 2 options

   OPTION  A. X Star on a CS yellow background for the X number of years as a Cub ( And if you have an old 1 year star on TC Orange background from when it was a separate program you can wear that OR add a year to the yellow background)

         Y Star on a green BS background

        AND a Z star on a leader blue background.

   Option B Add X+Y+Z and wear that total on a blue background.

Update

I had a conversation with the COR/CC. He is going to think about it and bring it not only to the troop committee, but the church board. The issue that may cause some challenges is that I am not a member of the church, nor of their faith. Scouting is truly viewed as an outreach program with the church, and the troop has attracted families to them. If I would be approved, I would be the first non-member as SM ever, and the troop has been around on and off, mostly on, for over 60 years.

Believe it or not, I do not have a problem with it, and understand where the church is coming from. Regardless of the decision, I am sticking with them.

Actually whether you are in a BSA uniform has nothing to do with can you drink alcohol. From the GTSS:

See? Nothing about wearing a uniform.

 

If you go home after a BSA event, there are no BSA rules that prevent you from having a glass of wine with dinner, even if you haven't taken your uniform off yet. If you are at a troop camp out, you still can't have a beer even if you are not wearing a BSA uniform.

 

I don't understand where the idea the "no alcohol rule" was somehow tied to being in uniform came from.

Actually I read about a case where an SM was put into the Ineligible Volunteer Files after being seen in a bar, in uniform after summer camp. Thankfully he followed the appeal process and explained why he was in a bar, in full uniform, and was reinstated: it was the closest place from where his troop bus broke down that had a phone to call a tow truck for the bus, and parents to pick up Scouts.

MattR,

National BSA has come up with some standards that approved providers agree to use for WFA.

Here's a link http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/680-008.pdf

Couple of things.

1) Agree with the pencil whipping comment. IMHO, and I know many will disagree. but doing away with the Skill Awards has contributed to that occurring. One thing mandated by the adults in my son's, and I will continue to do, is during the January lock in, working on/reviewing First Aid skills. I think knowing first aid is a vital skill, and wish First Aid MB was required for First Class Scout again.

2) In regards to epi-pens laws vary from state-state. In some states, only the person who the epi-pen is prescribed to can administer it, or someone approved by their parent/guardian. Some states allow anyone with training to administer it. Plus there are professional/licensing issues.  One of my coworkers has issues requiring an epi-pen. We were told that if they ever goes into shock and needs the epi-pen, we need to make darn sure that their hand is on the epi-pen and we are "aiding" them in administering  the drug as there are legal issues for me and licensing issues fro the RNs.

3) Threats of lawsuits are real even if frivolous. I had someone tell me I should sue the leader who pulled me out of the water for dislocating my shoulder prior to my surgery. There was someone who rescued a coworker from an auto accident who sued her for injuries. And while I think and hope this is a joke, I read about a lady suing her rescuer for rape because he touched her "inappropriately" to do CPR and was was giving mouth-to-mouth.

4) Nowadays, it is easier and cheaper to settle out of court than to defend yourself. A doctor in MS is the best case for that. He's Junior and in one specialty, while his deceased father, Senior, was an Ob-Gyn. One of Senior's patients decided to sue Junior, despite repeated attempts telling them Senior died. Long story short, Junior had to hire a lawyer, take time out of his practice, prepare for court, AD NAUSEUM, in order for the judge to dismiss the case within 30 minutes at trial. OH and expenses were out of pocket becuase Junior's malpractice insurance lawsuits from HIS patients, not just any malpractice lawsuit.

5) Even knowing all of the possible negative repercussions, and dealing with an injury resulting from an attempt to rescue someone, I would do it again in a heartbeat. I would expect someone to do everything they could to help out one of my kids, and I will do the same.  I know I could not live with myself otherwise.

Hedge,

I admit first aid in ITOLS is not enough. Heck IMHO even a basic AHA first aid course is not enough, and I teach those courses. Those courses are designed for urban environments with easy access to medical care.

But basic first aid courses were not always that way. Especially FA MB.  It taught skills that would be considered WFA.

Back in the day, First Aid MB, or at least where I was taught,  was outdoor based. it taught us how to recognize problems, and how to improvise using stuff found on a trail, on ourselves, and in a backpack. We learned the skills, then practiced on hikes with scenarios. Out of all my first aid classes over the years, it was the best one. In reading the BS WFA book ( http://www.scoutstuff.org/bsar-wilderness-first-aid-manual.html#.Vgh8YW7ig40)  about 90% is what I was taught for FA MB.

As for CPR, you are correct CPR certification is not needed for T-2-1. However, CPR is used for an unconscious choking victim which is a 2nd Class requirement. And being able to demonstrate CPR and AED usage is a FA MB requirement. IMHO certification is more CYA.

BUT I also know that CPR changes every five years, Waiting to get back to work and find out what the new changes will be in 2016 and get my instructor update, as well as finding out when the new books come out.

As for Epi-pens I don't know why they are not taught for T-2-1 or FA MB, especially since it seems as if more and more folks are developing allergies that require them. The only thing I can think for NOT teaching them  is that it is a controlled substance requiring a prescription to obtain. And I bet some lawyers do NOT want "kids" administering them. That and in some jurisdictions, only the person who it is prescribed to can administer them, although you can help them out

What I've found interesting is that techniques I was taught back in the day, went out of vogue, but are not coming back.

And I too hope that you have "wasted" all of that money on training and supplies.  But it's good that you are prepared for when things hit the fan. From multiple experiences as both a victim and responder, "Being Prepared" is key.

Had a chance to talk to to my friend, and  he's good with me becoming SM,  now it's time to talk to the CC/COR

Hedge nails it. Stabilize and call 911 is the current in basic first aid. When I helped teach/recertified a AHA first aid class in June, the only hands on stuff required was putting on gloves; bandaging, and one other item I can't remember. But it was either treating for shock, cut off finger, or epi pen.  Yeh we do some extras in the class.

What's interesting is that when I got injured in August, it was the leaders and the SPL that took care of me. Grant you we sent the scouts back to camp to cook. But those who took an AHA class probably could not treat me.

Unfortunately we too use email and FB to communicate. The issue we have is that not all of the Scouts have an email/FB account, so emails go out to both Scouts and parents.

I admit part of the issue for me is not wanting to deal with the irate, first year parents. Instead of putting the blame for the lack of communication where it belongs, on their Scout, it gets placed on us leaders instead. In the past 2 years since I'm back involved on the Boy Scout level, only once did a parent recognize where the blame belonged.

Also we have had times where Scouts said they were going on an activity, only at the last minute to be informed no they are not because the parents had something else planned.

We also use a newsletter and calendar that's given to the Scouts and parents. But I question how many even read it.

Interesting. I wonder if they will allow alternate certifications to suffice, i.e. EMT, RN, PA, MD, DO, etc to qualify.

My questions are the following:

1. IF this is the case, is it the result of outside agencies' first aid courses being little more than calling 911?

2. IF this is the case, will BSA revamp the First Aid requirements so that basic First Aid is spread out among the S-T-2-1 requirements, and First AID MB focuses on Wilderness First Aid?

3. IF this is the case, how are councils going to implement classes to aid volunteers in taking these classes? I've seen these classes in the $150+ range, and can tell you I cannot afford to take that class one time, let alone every two years.

FYI these are the types of uniforms in national BSA literature I've read about.

Professional Uniform, and yes I wore my Eagle tie tac and some type of BSA lapel pin with it.

Field Uniform depending upon program it can be Boy Scout, one of the 3 Sea Scout or 4 Sea Scout leader uniforms, Cub Scout, or Venturing uniform.  Some people call the Class A

Activity uniform. Currently the field uniform with a Scouting T-shirt or polo.  From 1989- approx 1999, was khaki shorts with either a tan, red or maroon polo shirt. Sometimes called a Class B.

Camp Uniform, This is in CS Day Camp NCS literature. Basically it's a CSDC shirt.

Local Uniforms i've seen  include Aquatics Staff, T-shirt and swim trunks.  BSA did come out wiht official swim trunks at one time, and that camp used those once they came out. Other uniform was the COPE uniform. That one consisted of BDU trousers, and initially camp staff t-shirt, but when we got them, the COPE course t-shirt instead. Also included harness and brain bucket.

I think that the transition is hard, mainly because of the poor training for Scouters and parents on boy lead and the patrol method....

I know it's more complicated than that, but I feel that it wouldn't need to be.

 

Part of the issue is not understanding boy lead. Especially parents.

But the biggest challenge is CS leaders. You spend  X number of years as a CS leader being trained to run meetings, trips, etc, Then become a BS leader and have to sit on your hands and let them do it.  Very hard to transition.

Or as Master Yoda would say, "you must unlearn what you have learned."

Yes the trasnistion from CS leader to BS leader is VERY HARD, even for those of us who know better. Why I kinda harp on the balencing between guiding and mentoring vs taking over. I did the taking over once before, way back when I was a brand new ASM. I was acting more like the SPL, and some of my friends who were youth started getting ticked off. Other leaders had to have a cup of coffee and worked with me.

As for the questions, most are standard with me. The only coaching I do prior to a BOR is to tell them to relax, think, and take it easy.

As an FYI Patrol meetings and other DAY (emphasis) activities do not require adults. Only overnight activities.

1)  Please keep resposnes coming. I'm one of those who are not quick-witted when a new challenge comes about and need to think on it. So this forum is helping in planning.

2) What are some ways to not insult any of the current leadership when I present the ideas to improve the troop? Again the SM has done a fantastic job holding the troop together and keeping them active despite his health and lack of consistant adult help. My other friend who is suppose to take over has also done a great job inspiring the troop and workig with them when he could. After all, he was the one that inspired and motivated them to go to Philmont.

I've briefly talked to the SM about taking over if need be. He doesn't seem to have a problem with it. Only comment was "I still want to be active." I responded "Yes, you're a valuable resource, but I don't want you to feel obligated to do everything.

I am trying to meet with my friend to talk person to person with him about it before meeting the CC this Monday. But it's going to be a challenge since he gets married in 9 days, then on a Honeymoon.

Yep, the CC is attending the Monday meeting to do 4 BORs. I was informed that I was still listed as a MC on the charter and that I need to be there to sit on 3 of them (Oldest is one of them!). So I am going to bring it up to him.

@ya lazima vumbi

 

Well @@Krampus might have the correct BSA uniform and socks, but does he have official BSA underwear?  Did anyone bother to check that?  

Don't go there. Anyone remember the official OA boxers at NOAC one year?  Then again, I wish I had gotten the OA "Toothpick Holder" when I had the chance. Alas, they sold out by the time I got to the trading post.

At what point do you draw the line?

 

Of course, sometimes you just don't have time to get everything done twice.  So focus on repeating parts of required badges often enough for completion, if you leave one thing or so to be done at home, that's fine.  And electives become just that, don't repeat electives unless it's a useful scout skill like knots or cooking or hiking and camping or first aid

 

You do things, sometimes repeat them adding to the expereince, as time contraints allow.

With the exception of one incident I was involved in, outside of SMCs I didn't have much interaction with the SM until I was ASPL. And that was only becasue the SPL wasn't there and I was in charge. But he was a hiker and camper. And we were a hiking and camping troop.

After I turned 18, we got a new SM.  Still into hiking and camping. But loved boating since he was a Sea Scout Quartermaster, and a nautical engineer. You guessed it, once summer hit, lots of fun on the water.

Yep, they were good rolemodels who I want to emmulate.

I have to ditto cardboard box ovens.  I'd bake cookies at the end of the year for my den with one.

Not LNT friendly, but AWESOME, is "Turkey in the Hole." dig a 6' hole, build a small bonfire, and let it get to coals.  While that is going on, take your turkey, insert a bag of ice in it. Take several stick of butter to the turkey and add any spices.  Wrap the turkey in 3 layers of foil going in different directions. Place turkey in the hole, cover in coals, then cover with dirt. Wait x number of hours , and when ready you will have a turky that fall off the bones.

HMMMM maybe the kids will let me use one of their foxholes this Thanksgiving? 

At summer camp the camp commissioners wanted a duty roster posted in each campsite.  It is the only time I have ever seen the boys put one together and it was totally ignored throughout the week.  Everything seemed to get done quite well without it, too.  

In my expereince, it's usally the older Scouts who have been around a while, know each other really well, etc etc, that can really get away with no duty roster. Some mixed aged patrols can do it, some can't.  NSPs gotta have it, otherwise their is arguing, bickering, and nothing gets done.

The leaders in my troop do this. each one picks a meal. we buy everything needed for it. And everyone chips in for KP.

Except the last campout I went on. The idiot who was suppose to cook breakfast didn't wake up on time to do it. Used getting back from the hosptial at 5:00AM as an excuse for oversleeping.  

Quazse,

Traditionally each meal had different folks cooking them. Samples from the past showed that, and that is how it was taught at Brownsea 22, JLTC, and the old SM Fundamentals..  Looks like that is out now. Looking at the 2016 requirements,  Scouts need to cook three meals on a single camp out still.

As for IOLS, oneof the things I HATE WITH A PASSION (emphasis) about the syllabus is the idea of signing off a card when they do something, "just like the Scouts."

As for Cooking MB, I guess those meals he has already done can go towards that instead of First Class since he got a partial in it.

Sorry, didn't read the Tenderfoot and Second Class requirements.

Yep IMHO, the requirement as written is not conducive to the patrol method and reeks of "one and done," as if the Scout only needs to do cooking on one campout. That's ok, my son can deal with it. He's got 15 weekend trips under his belt so far, loves camping, and can deal with this. His advancement, his responsibility.

Definately something the PLC needs to be aware of as it may change how the patrols have to do things. Old school leaders teaching old school methods. Also may present some challenges for those going to Philmont. Luckily we have approx. 7 - 8 trips between now and when they leave for them to meet the requirement as stated.

On a personal note, why the heck didn't national incorporate this new method in the ITOLS syllabus? And I love how in the BSHB they talk about folks doing the same thing for the entire weekend trip, but the sample Duty Roster is the traditional rotation method.

Thanks folks for the answers.

No I haven't, I suggested he go directly to the SM. The reason for that is at the moment, and I stress at the moment,  only the adults sign off on requirements. Reason for that is rank. His PL and another are "Scout," and the 3rd PL is Tenderfoot. I personally am hopiong to change that in the near future.

EDITED: I'm one of those who think PLs should sign off on on the T-2-1 Requirements that they themsleves have mastered as evidenced by them holding that the rank they are signing off on.

I also think Scouts should be able to sit on BORs for T-2-1 like they use to in the 1972-1989 period.  One of the very few things I like about the Improved Scouting Program.

Ok this question came about last night becasue of a conversation I had with Oldest. While it affects him immediately, I see this affecting pretty much everyone but 4 people in the troop. I haven't talked to my troop's leadership about it yet, and neither has he. But I think I know what the SM will tell him, and know that on this board we have a good grasp on things.

Requirement 4E for First Class states:

On one campout, serve as your patrol's cook. Supervise your assistant(s) in using a stove or building a cooking fire. Prepare the breakfast, lunch, and dinner planned in requirement 4a. Lead your patrol in saying grace at the meals and supervise cleanup.

The patrols use duty rosters and rotate the duties for each meal, so one person normally doesn't cook three meals on a camp out, at the most 2. Only time we ever had 1 person cooking every meal was the Scout, who wants to be  chef, was working with the NSP on their first camp out. Has been with his patrol ever since.

My thinking is that the 3 First Class Scouts we had actually used multiple camp outs to get the three meals in.  I don't have a problem with Scouts taking multiple camp outs to meet this requirement since they are using the Patrol Method, but what are your thoughts?