Eagle94-A1

1 hour ago, DuctTape said:

Regarding cost, the problem most have is that little/none of the $ to national or to council is viewed as benefitting the individual scouts and patrols. They do not see the value of that sunk cost, or the value is not commensurate with said cost.

Regarding national, I have seen National ignore volunteers, and not only the unit serving Scouters, but big, national level ones. Anyone remember the national Philmont Committee finding out about the mortgage AFTER the fact, the Cub Scout 411 Committee that had the program they created changes about 18 month into it without any input, or the national Sea Scout commodore, finding out that national was looking at dropping Sea Scouting's age limit to 18 when parts of the CHURCHILL REPORT got leaked?

What is national good for? Training has been dumbed down. Current uniforms are made of crappy material to the point that vintage uniforms with tons of glue on them go for almost a new shirt, and a vintage shirt without glue can cost as much as a new shirt. My oldest had a pair of new pants split with less than 2 months of wear on them. I am still wearing ODL pants and short that are over 20 years old. And they had lots of wear as I spent 6 summers on camp staff, and worked for BSA for a total of 5 years. My Gen 1 Switchbacks look older than my ODL pants due to the fading.

17 minutes ago, Scouterlockport said:

This is the problem with the funding of councils, the funds that go to keeping camps running and maybe the salary of a DE (in theory) none of the fees help troops with their running of their units. 

My council sold 2 camps purely for the money. One camp was subsidizing the other two camp until they shut down the camp for 9 months. When the ranger died, Volunteers stepped up to the plate and took care of one camp. Heck the council moved all the equipment at the camp, including folks personal equipment that they left at the camp so they would not have to transport it back and forth, while it was still in use. As for the camp they are trying to build up, there are so many issues with it, that, many folks will not go to it, including former staffers. And when folks try to fix matters, they get run off.

9 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

When was the last time you saw a summer camp that was patrol oriented?  I mean, really patrol oriented?

When my troop did summer camp in 2020 and we created our own program. Scouts had an absolute blast, but will not do another one because of the lack of MBs offered. Sadly one of my adults agrees with them. When I proposed doing a HA week on the AT to cut down on summer camp costs, even though that is something the Scouts wanted to do, the lack of MBs was the driving point. And my CC said it would be fun, but a waste of a summer. Sadly the focus on advancement and Eagle is causing folks to forget the fun and adventure.

18 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

 Unprompted, his first comment was about that scouting was not fun anymore.

Understatement of the year.  There are so many rules, regulations, and hoops that have to be gone through, that folks are becoming disgusted. Look at the new rule on Cub Scout pack camping limiting to 1 night on their own, yet can do multiple if a district/council function. No rational was given for this, even when multiple people and on multiple websites, and even councils, have asked why the new rule is being implemented.

The rule that limits 18-20 year olds in regards to what they can do, yet also demands that they follow all YP guidelines nonetheless, is a major concern for me as I have lost extremely knowledgeable and experienced Eagles because they do not see any value in continuing as Scouters and having to give up friends. In some cases they would not be able to associate with school mates and family members because of the new YP rules. In my long history with Scouts, Those 18-20 year olds are better Scouters with more knowledge, skills, abilities, and expereince than 98% of the new crossed over Cub Scout leaders. Heck I had Eagles under and over 18 help teach ITOLS back in the day.

1 hour ago, Cburkhardt said:

This discussion will ultimately include things like mergers, local council bankruptcies and significant local and national changes (many positive) in the program and its management as a direct or indirect result of the bankruptcy. 

One of the not so positive national changes is the increase in fees, and allowing councils to match, them. And don't tell me Scouting is cheaper than Sports. I know that. My kids are involved in Scouts Because we cannot afford sports. Scouting is slowly becoming out of reach for folks. Add council fees, and it is ridiculous. 

And before you mention fundraising, we do it and 2/3 of the troop is on some type of assistance. The price is slowly becoming cost prohibitive to the folks that most need it.

My problem has been recently crossed over Cub Scouts from packs that did not properly use the transition program having a hard time understanding that the Scouts are in charge. Sometimes it takes time and counseling, but they usually get it and enjoy it.

My BIGGEST (major emphasis) problems problems have been the parents of recently crossed over Cub Scouts. As far back as when I was a Scout, we had issues with parents not understanding the concept and interfering, including those who should have known better One case was the Eagle Scout and an experienced ASM telling me that they do not think the Patrol Method works and that the adults need to take charge and run things. These two were overheard by several Scouts telling their Scout he does not need to listen ot htem, only the adults.They eventually went to a troop just like that. Worst case was a group of parents who, despite being "trained" would ignore it and take over command of the Scouts. Those parents nearly killed the troop, and caused 2 families to leave.

At least in the USA, our kids are so regimented, i.e. activities planned and scheduled by parents, strict extracurricular practices led by coaches, etc, that extremely few kids have any free-time and can think for themselves. Not scouting related, but when I was in charge of a job shadowing program at my former job, I could not tell you how many how many parents, including parents of college age students,  filled out and scheduled shadowing for their child, without the child even knowing what to do. At my current job, I had parents organize their child's college schedules without understanding the process. In one case the plan by the mother would have resulted in no financial aid, and would have taken the student twice as long to complete the degree. In another instance, when COVID limited the number of people in our facilities, I had one mother screaming at me because she could not come in to tell us her daughter's schedule. She also did not know the process. We worked with the student, got everything set up properly for the student, and when she shows mom after leave, we get yelled at for screwing up her daughter's schedule. This is a college student and their mother.

29 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

I was thinking ... YPT, but NOT registered ... it's an oxymoron.  An automatic statement that the YPT points did not sink in.   There is no YPT meat without the person being registered.  It's like attending law school, but never passing the bar.  

I know someone who submitted multiple applications over a 5 year period, but was never registered. Council lost every single one of the applications, including the 3 hand delivered ones. When I finally pushed the issue at council for the 6th submission, they were registered for less than 3 months.  Some SNAFU in IA 2.0 / SCOUTBOOK. caused every MBC to be unregistered in my council. They said the heck with Scouting after that.

So yes, I knew an unregistered leader with YPT.

(sarcasm on) What's Venturing? (sarcasm off)

Seriously I know in my area, you do not here about Venturing..  Some predicted that with the introduction of Girls into Scout Troops, venturing would slowly die off. Seems like the case. As for Sea Scouts, in my area they are growing. Then again Sea Scouting has traditionally been the red-headed step-child of Scouting, so it is much, MUCH more volunteer driven and led.  Heck one long time SE didn''t even know what a Sea Scout was!

Trust me, I know first hand that no Cubs will slowing kill Scouts. My troop has had no feeder pack for 10 years now.  We are down to 6 actice Scouts, and will lose 1 soon to college.

1 hour ago, Cburkhardt said:

Mergers used to be opposed by unit level Scouters for the sole reason that these placed council camping properties at risk of being sold.  The bankruptcy changed that dynamic, with many of the marginal properties already having been sold to fund the trust.  My sense is that people have moved on from insisting that marginal properties be retained at all cost.  People want fewer and upgraded properties and one way to do that is to merge.

Not all camps sold were "marginal." I know of one camp that until council shut it down for 9 months, was subsidizing the other 2 camps the council owned. Why sell it you ask? The camp was prime real estate, despite what the court appointed appraiser listed, and the PTB wanted the money. That camp paid the council's share of the lawsuit, and then some. And of course all the equipment that the OA and others had donated over the years was taken away while the camp was still in use. Heck the council took equipment that did not belong to them, stuff that volunteers owned and were using to maintain the camp since the council stopped maintaining it before the sale, despite it still being used.

As for the other "marginal" camp sold, they had more attendance at that camp than the "primary" camp that they are keeping. Improvements were being made by the volunteers up to a week before the sale.

The reason why folks at the unit level in my area have been opposed in the past was not because  of camp sales, but rather customer service. As someone who volunteered at the council level of a Metro council, coming to a to work in a rural council that was larger geographically, but a much, much smaller population,  there were challenges that my volunteers and I faced, that I would never have imagined. Customer service is a problem, and sadly over the years it has slowly gotten worse.

Now folks in my area are begging for a merger. Customer service cannot get any worse. 

52 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

Many of these are national employees. Ours are. I have heard some aren’t. I assume that is for low volume, or marginal operations national chooses not to staff. Then the council would be the reseller. 

Actually it is the reverse. Many shops are actually "council distributorships" meaning they are council owned and they have council employees running things.  National shops actually rent space from the council and national pays the workers.

25 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

2) Council payments ... I expect National sees councils having funds in endowments & property (even after bankruptcy).  They easiest way for them to access that is to increase the council annual registration fee.  BSA can force council consolidation by greatly increasing that national charter fee (10x, 100x, etc).  I expect that would result in massive consolidation of councils without National BSA having to work through the specifics. 

(sarcasm on) My council should be rolling in the dough. They sold one camp for over 10x the court appraised value, and that paid more their share of the settlement. (sarcasm off)

Unfortunately councils will pass on their costs to the Scouts, making it more prohibitive for some folks. 

And some council are in denial about mergers. I am a rumor-monger for bringing that up at a public meeting. Funny thing is, so far all my "rumors" are turning out to  be true.

For that I am thankful to everyone here.  I get more accurate and timely info here than in my council. Heck I found out about the 2017 membership survey here, and my SE was not going to do anything about it until others started posting it on social media.  

On 4/20/2023 at 4:14 AM, Mrjeff said:

Or maybe they got answers to the questions that they expect and maybe those answers were so overwhelming that they have to reevaluate their thinking!

If the answers go against their thinking, they will ignore the results. Look at Instapalms are the best example of National ignoring the volunteers polled.

On 4/22/2023 at 8:45 AM, 1980Scouter said:

How many LC are going to have to merge after making their contributions? Many rely on interest from investments to fund a large portion of operations. 

Take away most of the investment earnings and they are in trouble. 

Actually in one set of court documents, National plans to reduce the number of councils by 2/3s.

Folks,

Dopes anyone know anything about the "special pathway to Eagle Scout for those whose journey was interrupted during their time in Scouting?" I have a Scouter who is a CSA survivor, and quit after being assaulted. He was not involved in the lawsuit as he did not beleive BSA was liable and his assailant has been dead a while now.

2 minutes ago, MYCVAStory said:

Sorry....yes, plan may now go effective.  Fat fingers.  

THANK YOU FOR THE UPDATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And yes I am screaming in Joy at ya! I want justice for victims.

27 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

...The survey’s results (from 20 questions) are not yet available but will be released publicly when they are, a spokesman for the organization said in a statement. 

I will believe it when I see it.

Please keep us posted.

Yes, National and Councils will not advertise competition. heck I am surprised https://www.highadventurescouting.com/council.html exists because it is in direct competition with with the 4 national HA bases.

Back in the day, the International Division could help out with International Letters of introduction, national Scout organization info, and restricted international swag, i.e. BSA international neckerchiefs, jacket, slides,  and if you earned it World Crest (pre-1990), International Activity Badge, International Youth Exchange Badge, or the current International Spirit Award. 

Back in the day, my district created their own exchange program. The city my troop was in had a twin city in Canada. Relationships were developed between troop  up there, and where I was at. They worked with us to create trips to us, and vice versa. They lent us 5 Scouts and Scouters to be our guides, and I was one of the 2 Scouters who were their guide a few year later.

If you got contacts in Nepal, I would contact them. I would also contact International Department,  https://www.scouting.org/international/ for assistance. 

BE ADVISED (emphasis) BSA's rules still apply, even if  the visiting organization allows it. Folks overseas get shocked at some of BSA's rules and regulations.

I  do not know who did the appraisals, but one camp they seriously undervalued. When I told folks how much the appraisal was for, they were extremely shocked because their nearby properties were a lot less land, and valued at a heck of a lot more.

When they listed the property, it was 5 times the appraisal price. And as i stated, the sale price was more than 10 times the appraisal price because of a bidding war.

Stupid question: what happens to the excess money from sales?

I know my council made 10x the appraised value of one camp they sold, and made at least 4x what their contribution from property sales was supposed to be.

Here is the funny thing. The unit volunteers were told none of the money from the camps' sales was going to the lawsuit.

A former exec board member, when I told him what the unit serving were told stated "That is not what they told us (exec board)."

(sarcasm on) I love my council (sarcasm off)

1 hour ago, Mrjeff said:

I just wish that the BSA would just leave the administration of the local councils alone.  They make up policies and rules that they really can't enforce, they have lost the trust and confidence of the members, they have over priced everything, and made it very hard to enjoy. 

Are the council's any better?  In all honesty, the only ones who are doing anything to support units at the council are the support staff; registrar, office manager, secretaries, and shop employees.

1 hour ago, Double Eagle said:

 

And for those that read to the bottom of the post:  The youngest Eagle Scout was 11yrs old.  Not many 11yr olds have the skills, knowledge, and attitude to complete Eagle projects, BOR, and application. 

 

Don't remind me. And while he was very personable when he got to talk in his interview, dad seemed to be the primary mover.

I do not know when an "Eagle Advisor" position was created, but I am guessing within the last 15 years.  So My questions is, what did folks do when advice was needed for the project before the advisor position was created?

I went to my SM.

51 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

I didn't see if anyone posted a link to the survey.  Here it is: https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fscouting.co1.qualtrics.com%2Fjfe%2Fform%2FSV_bwRYOkYtVhKuhD0%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR023Zyg17gdApjE2j3_U5DHb6Nf2L3DqzO-psskHKUmSN1h2OCgAMzJrlU&h=AT2HR5V67UvWPBRa97b7P7qsVHaI3OL9YOBrRFduGIA-dEiJNkJ3xoejPuCV5zgEjfnC4fRyUBDgLg2881iKNEXYpOqLSV7h35nTohFqu2m9S-5iLC26KIm5S--LCd3AmQ&__tn__=-UK-R&c[0]=AT1ksbr1YQp-wVczI4xzZS7m9o0902qtI2rMWKWHUEZ-OTurDvj6z7YyC9YItVBo8jcMHjiNtrez_Ov2IqMDJ1TPEI1QLTmtmROv6oyMl7qrx4KV1lhngmn4qZliOK1lIJKTNBfK_lC9SGyRkJ3Vi0riDBXq0uZCBwrjtj-kT_cqc4HlfhWoHngTJC9xg-Eq9yffDIKBfbq7TokHu8b-V2kcvsQ6

 

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3 hours ago, fred8033 said:

One point ... don't drag out decisions or try to force change.  If you don't like how the SM is doing it, are you ready to find another SM?  Or another unit?  Our kids are only young for a short time.  The time in scouts is even shorter.  

Concur 100% You can read about some of the challenges I've encountered with one troop. At first manageable, but with new families coming in, gto to the point I back out. Kids said hey were having fun, but both wife and I noticed  changes in personality. Scouting was slowly becoming frustrating, instead of fun for them. Getting away to a new troop that was Scout led helped tremendously,

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

How big is the C10 endowment?  Inquiring minds want to know...

in 2020, Form 990 Schedule D, Part 5, page 31 of the document states they ended 2020 with an endowment of $56,163.690, 2019 was $54.152,230. 2018 was $50.113.630.

Concur with @InquisitiveScouter. I had a large, 6 man Coleman tent. IT was a P.I.T.A.O.  to set up, especially by myself in the rain. Eventually we also went the two tent route, the hoodlums in one tent, the wife and I in another. That tent was used maybe 10 time in a 5 year period.