DuctTape

I disagree with de-prioritizing Adult Association. The problem isn't the method. The problem is most adults don't understand it, and it isn't done properly (as is true with most of the methods). To wit, the complaints of adults taking over NSPs is NOT adult association. Just having adults present or hovering is NOT   adult association. An overbearing SM leading everything and/or telling scouts how to do everything is NOT adult association.

Adult Association is adults of high moral caliber exhibiting the Oath and Law through words and deeds. Adult Association is the regular SM conferences which mentor scouts and help them grow. Adult Association is an expert in his field/hobby sharing his/her passion with scouts as a mB counselor. Adult Association is when a scout looks at an adult and says to themselves, "I want to be like him (or her)."

There are plenty. I have met many, but they do not have tv shows so no one else knows of their names. Extrapolating to the entire country I am certain there are thousands of qualified young people who could fill the role.

If BSA wanted to, they could fund and create a show (start with youtube) to generate a media presence for the ambassador. This is not much different from what BSA did in its early days when authors wrote books and stories about scout patrols. These were not commissioned by BSA but they did not object to folks using "Boy Scouts" and other trademarks since it promoted the program. 

But, yes, there are many qualified young people who could do this. 

2 hours ago, Calion said:

Forgive me, but I don’t see how. In each situation, a Scout is in a situation where he has no idea what to do. Do you let them fail, having no idea how to succeed, or do you step in and help? Or do you step in and do it for them?

Do you see a fourth option?

Wait, you’re kidding, right? You’re talking about everything being Scout-led, with little to no adult interference, only post-hoc guidance, and you’d be surprised that the Scout leadership had not ensured that every new Scout had been properly instructed into how to put up his tent?

But not if that Scout is in a leadership position, right? Or, in that situation, would you simply take over?

At this point I am mot sure you read my entire post. I will allow you time to re-read it and reflect. Please remember that all my comments are meant in the spirit of helpfulness for you, and moreso for the scouts. 

11 minutes ago, Calion said:

I don’t at all disagree that allowing failure is a key part of Scouting. But if the Scout has absolutely no idea how to do a task, do you just stand back and let him fail? Or do you guide and mentor him? If a Scout is having problems putting up his tent, and there are no other Scouts around who are experienced enough to help him, do you stand back and let him fail, and fail, and fail, because he has no idea what he’s doing? Or do you step in and guide and instruct?

This is a different situation from "whispering in the ear" of the patrol leader who is running a meeting.

In general, a PL should regularly invite "experts" to teach a skill at a patrol meeting. The patrol meetings can be part of a larger troop meeting. 

As to this specific situation, I would first ask why was there no instruction prior to the campout? If there wasn't (which is a problem inandofitself), I would let the scout struggle and wait for them to ask for help. If I see the scout will not ask, prior to them hitting the frustration and melt-down stage, I will ask if they would like some assistance. After they accept, I will often then say "I am happy to show you, but the price is that you will be expected to show the next scout who needs assistance." Since no other scouts are experienced (as per your scenario), I might do this with a group of two (or three). I would also follow up with the PL about knowledge and skill preparedness of the patrol and remind them of using meetings ahead of time to get instruction and practice skills. 

Lastly, I think you may be misinterpreting a lot of my commentary. I am not suggesting that we just let the scouts flail and fail and never intervene nor provide guidance. It is just the how & when of intervention. It is an art for sure. As you can see in my example above, I guide them ahead of time to plan, and ask for assistance. I will never say no to a request for assistance (A Scout is Helpful).  If I see a potential issue I allow the scout to struggle up to but never getting to the point of maddening frustration (each scout is different).

Welcome to the virtual campfire.

-dT

Sharing a personal story here, it may or may not help.

I started scouts in a troop which was very active, the SM was great, the patrols operated independently, I had fun with all the other guys.

After a couple years I visited another troop with my father. I knew some of these guys from school, but not many. The troop was ok. It didn't seem like it was better than the other. I went on a campout with them. I had a good time (I think?) I did make some new friends quite quickly. I do not recall ever going back to the other troop for a meeting. We just switched to the new troop. I do not recall at the time "missing the other troop" as I was having a good time with the new guys.

Many years later I was having a conversation with my father and the old troop came up. He asked if I knew why we changed. I did not. He did not give me many details but said it was a safety issue; something about inappropriate firearms use. It might have been on a campout I did not attend. I do not know.

My point of the story is that even though I was having a good time in my old troop, and the troop operated quite well, the safety issue was a non-negotiable for my father and we switched troops without me even knowing why. As a scout, doing scouting things with other kids I didn't even realize it or apparently care. I know I adapt to change quite easily, so that could be why it really did not faze me at the time. 

Good luck!

19 minutes ago, yknot said:

Some of it seems good but some of it seems concerning. Federal lands are already overrun in a lot of places. Not sure allowing more unpermitted usage even by smaller groups is such a good idea.  Also given what I've seen of "capital improvements" they are too often connected to concession operations.  

 

Yeah, I must be missing something. This bill seems to be less about public access and more about allowances to guide companies and other businesses.

The reason I would not recommend it is because it does not allow failure. A scout needs failure to reflect and learn. That is the number one feature of scouting. Allowing the scout to fail, reflect, learn, and improve IS scouting. 

One reaon I am not a fan of parent's putting $ into a troop account ahead of time for campouts, etc... is this practice reduces (eliminates?) the opportunity for scouts to learn budgeting, responsibility, planning, value of $, etc... at the individual and patrol level. When scouts have to "touch the $" at all levels of the program they benefit greatly. Every step of the process that separates them from the $ is an opportunity lost. 

6 minutes ago, elitts said:

That's exactly what the situation is, though most of those parents won't admit it.  They want their children to always be completely safe and happy, obediently following the rules and doing only what they are told and not having to bear the responsibility or consequences for anything so they can just "be kids".  Somehow they think their kids will magically pick up the ability to cope with life's trials after they are 18.

The idea of raising children that question (politely) adults, determine what they think a solution should be on their own and who can function somewhat independently is simply anathema to some parents.

In which case the answer to the parents is, "I suppose Scouting is not the activity you are looking for. Good luck with finding an activity which fits your needs." 

A few more details here: https://abc7ny.com/bear-attack-cooperstown-harriman-state-park-camping/11885251/

"I made a mistake," Ayers said. "I left some of my food in my bag and spilled some on my leg and it was also other people that left a lot of trash around."

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

Now, that sort of sounds fun.  I can see it happening this way.   ...  Need to avoid the last kid chosen issue.  
 

IIRC, the "choosing" was all done ahead of time by the PLC. This was just the announcing. So it wasn't like gym class and picking teams. It is possible they announced all the patrols selections at the same time, "Tigers select Jimmy and John". It was a long time ago.

An interesting idea I only experienced once, and that was when I joined my first troop. At the first few troop meetings all the new scouts participated with all of the patrols (a different patrol each week). IIRC, we went as 2 per patrol. After 3 or 4 meetings the Patrols chose which of us were invited to join them. They made a big deal about choosing us. It was kind of like "draft day", the SPL would announce "The Toads choose Jimmy to join their patrol"! Cheers and high fives as each scout would run over to their patrol, be greeted with enthusiam and given their patrol badge. 

Sad that previous human use habituated the bear. Bears are creatures of habit, it learned at some point that tents and sleeping bags were an easy food source. Earlier human visitors must have kept food in their tent and/or sleeping bag which provided the bear the opportunities to learn this. Sadly the scouts (who apparently did follow food storage protocols) were the benefactors. Fortunately none were seriously injured. 

1 hour ago, Calion said:

Seriously off the rails like the Scout sitting there like a deer in the headlights, having absolutely no idea what to say or do?

Possibly. Might I suggest that if this occurs it might be a result of not having the conversations with the scout ahead of time. Has he scout been explicitly told he may (and should) seek guidance when needed? Did the scouter go over the plans with the scout leader ahead of time? Not to approve or fix them, just to ensure the scout had a plan. The scouter should ask leading questions to help the growing scout leader determine what should be considered. Afterwards, a sit down to discuss what worked, didn't etc... But not "whispering in their ear" during the activity.

In general, "off the rails" is when a significant safety issue is about to occur.

14 minutes ago, Calion said:

Here’s my question: Is that really a problem? Acknowledging your other concerns and focusing on this one, what’s wrong with their first year in Scouting being an AOL 2, with the Patrol Advisor continually whispering in the PL’s ear, while the new Scouts get used to Scouting? That’s basically how new troops work in my experience; why not new patrols? Heck, even in established troops it can work that way if the older Scouts have gone inactive or aged out and younger Scouts are leading the troop. 

I think the biggest problem is that is creates a paradigm which then must be dismantled. I disagree that it allows them to "get used to scouting" because that paradigm is fundamentally NOT scouting; what they are getting used to is adults being the leader. The idea of an adult continually whispering in their ear of a scout who is not prepared to be the leader denies the scouts the opportunity to experience scouting via an older Patrol leader. This experience will have positives and negatives which will help shape the younger scouts understanding. It will also affect how they ultimately lead when they are more prepared to do so. 

2 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Is 2 MBs at camp ok? 

I remember a scout who spent TWO weeks at the rifle range, and archery range. Those were the only two mBs he earned. Said it was the best summer camp he had.

Another scout spent a week fishing, and he already had the fishing mB!

Freeze dried meals are pre=packaged highly processed stuff loaded with salt, sugar etc.. Bringing some extra food for yourself is a good idea, but you can do much better than freeze dried. An easy way is to dehydrate your own homemade meals. Generally any one-pot meal or casserole style will work. One doesn't even need a fancy dehydrator, it can be done with a oven on low and the door propped open. Even better if you have a convection oven as air movement is more important than heat in dehydrating.

Camp menus like this are just one reason I dislike dining hall style summer camps. At patrol cooking camps (IMO, "real" summer camp) the food is fresh and and healthier.

Nice!

I learned to cook because of scouts.

I agree that one does not prop up their organization by showing how much worse another one was/is. That said I do believe there is a significant difference between the Catholic Church and the BSA in regards to their responses to CSA.

No doubt the BSA failed to address CSA adequately, failed to notify authorities and their attempts to mitigate by having internal documents (IVF)  barring volunteers was not effective. 

This is in stark contrast to the Catholic Church who did not even attempt to bar known abusers but instead just moved them to a different parish.

Neither did well.

That is not typical. May I ask why did you choose this troop? Did you visit others?

8 minutes ago, MattR said:

 

Lamb is vegetarian?

21 minutes ago, swilliams said:

Okay, I HAVE to share this story now.  One of the new parents that came on the last camping trip brought two suitcases, two full-size pillows, and a massage table.  I am not even kidding, swear on my life.  She set it up in the middle of camp and lay there while everyone else was fixing lunch.  

When the campsite is next to the cars, this is what happens. Nothing wrong with car camping, but it is "stage 1". Next is moving the campsite a quarter mile from the cars. Then a mile. Then 3. All of the stages require growth and usage of the specific advancement requirements. This is why a good program has advancement built in as automatic necessities to participate in the program. Contrasted with car camping plus advancement. The added benefit is the quality program grows with the scouts so there is less burnout. Little of the "we do the same campout all the time". I have found the greatest obstacle from moving away from the cars (and trailer) is the adults.