DuctTape

There is a problem when a newsletter and the GTA contradict, and worse when sections of the GTA contradict.

In this case, I do not see a contradiction. The "should" is specific to "before starting", but the conversation is still required and the SM signature acknowledges said conversation. 

Based on your description, I am assuming the camp has been having photogrphs taken and then the scouts then make a sketch from the photographs?

While I would not deny the scout, I would expect better from the camp and the mbc. It is apparent they are trying to do things as quickly as they can without the primary focus  to the scout's growth.  IMO, the camp is denying the scout a real opportunity to go out and watch the moon while making a sketch of it. The purpose is more than a sketch of the phases. It is to provide the scout a real opportunity to engage in astronomy. The reason for a sketch is because it takes time; the scout is not just making a quick observation but having a worthwhile experience. Now if I was the mbc and a scout came to me and said, it is raining tonight, what if I went out and took a photo of the moon and then did my sketch for this night while in my tent. I would say , "sure, sounds good." And then counsel the scout, "when explaining the changes perhaps include what you were unable to witness from the the still photograph compared to sketching the moon live. I look forward to seeing your sketches and hearing about your observations. Oh, and remember to have your buddy with you. Have fun!"

12 minutes ago, nolesrule said:

 

 Right, but it demonstrates that you don't actually have to see the stars themselves in the sky to be able to meet the requirement. You essentially just have to point to something held above you outside at night (there's a note on that particular set of sub-requirements that basically says it must be done outside at night). But someone else's intepretation of that requirement might deem that scenario to not be completed as written but rather a circumvention.

 

I would disagree that simply pointing to something held up is the same; that would indeed be a circumvention. In the scenario with the blind scout, the mbc recreated the night sky with a tactile means to observe it and the blind scout had to find the correct constellations by touch. One might argue this would be even more difficult for a sighted scout. Had the mbc just held up a tactile version of the constellation, that would not suffice. Just as if the mbc held up a printed paper with the constellation and a sighted scout pointed to it. In the example of the blind scout the term observe was creatively adjusted to accomodate the tactile observation skills of the blind scout. The requirement was completed as written. So no, not the same as just pointing to something held above you.

I understand you do not desire to litigate the specific requirement here, but it might help to have a third party weigh in on the specifics. In the end this is really the issue, since it appears the Unit Leader is supporting the need for the scout to complete the requirement agreeing with the Adv Chair (he/she has apparently deferred their authoity to the advancement chair that it could not have been completed as written). 

Unless the mB -counselor did in fact take liberties and the scout did not complete the requirements as written. Creative means is not license to modify/ignore the requirements.

I remember the article in which you reference. The mbc basically made a braille version of the sky for the scout to observe via touch. The scout did indeed observe in the night sky and identify the required constellations. 

This section is not for requirement interpretation, but for those circumstances where it is plainly evident the scout could not have completed the requirements as written. Such as Astronomy merit badge signed off when the the night sky was unobserveable.  

This situation also highlights a common complaint I have of using these "camp reports" instead of blue cards, alienating scouts from the advancement process. 

I am no Luddite, but if any process change in scouts eliminates a scout's responsibility and puts it solely on adults is a disservice to the scout and takes away from them an opportunity for growth. So SB, or other digital record keeping should either supplement the blue card process, or the scout needs to be able to access the digital record to submit records.

2 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Might be how it how it is on paper.  We got back from Summer camp and the staff was still entering completions.  We didn't know what our Scouts really completed till we were already home.  And there were no MB counselors.  Just staff teaching classes and no adults in sight.  Blue cards?  HA!!  All we have is a PDF generated in Black Pug.  
 

There might be a way that MBs are to be completed and recorded, but its not being done correctly.  And that is the fault of adults.

Yes. Adults are most often the problem, and summer camps often facilitate the problems. Ultimately when the process is not followed it is the scout who loses not just because of lost paperwork, but often being shortchanged from a growth opportunity that should have been a robust mB experience.

Ultimately it is the scouts responsibility to have their blue card signed, and to keep it. The mB counselor is responsible for testing each scout on each requirement and then signing off on the blue cards. Attending a class may or may not have included the individual testing of the scout. MB counselors, even at camp, may not just count attendance at a class as fulfilling  the requirements as written. Thus without a specific record of each requirement being completed as written, the camp director nor any other adult can wave a wand to waive the sign-off on the blue card.

A thrifty way to find a place to camp which we use regularly is contacting local parks which do not allow camping in general. We have had good success asking if we could do a "park clean-up and camp overnight". The town parks are very amenable to the arrangement. They will often send someone down with a truck to provide bags and then collects them when we are done.

The scouts do about an hour or so of dedicated cleanup in the parking area, and then continually pick stuff up while hiking and playing.

Edit: having the scouts call to ask (on speakerphone) is a fantastic growth opportunity. To facilitate success, we will have an adult make first contact to inquire about the possibility and then have the scouts call.

With a larger troop that is able to have enough adults for separate outings, you could also encourage the patrols to plan their outings instead of the troop. The PLC time could then be to see if there is overlap and then patrols could do outings together. But first, the ideas come from each patrol. 

IMO the best part of individual patrol outings are the reporting out to the troop about the outing, bragging on the activity and recognizing patrol members for jobs well done purposely excluding advancement, although the reporting might have involved something for advancement. 

Example.

Troop meeting opening.

Reports from Patrols.

-Big Bad Wolf patrol did an overnight bike trip. Jimmy was awarded "mr.fixit" for his expertise in re-aligning a chain that came off a bike. The Wolf Patrol would also like to recognize Mr. Andrews for meeting us at the park with all our camping gear. He surprised us with ice-cream sandwiches too.

-Wild Lightning patrol just returned from a 2-night campout. Davey led us on a poop hike. We followed marked trails around the park looking for animal poop and trying to figure out what kind of animal made it. Davey gets the "poop hiker award" (hands Davey an TP tube with "poop hiker award" written on it.  

What are these "spendy" outings? Knowing these might help us see the type of activities which interest the scouts. Then we could provide some thrifty alternatives which might also capture their attention.

Barry, I do not think we disagree, except for the judgement that their decision is actually in error. I completely agree with having a worthwhile discussion with them, but I withold judging their behavior. The judgement should come from them.

10 hours ago, qwazse said:

I’m hearing a different concern other than scouts disregarding uniform standards. It sounds like scouts were trying to promote an alliance that some did not want to be promoted, and some want BSA to sanction those scouts.

To be fair, scouts want some scouters to favor a position against their conscience. And they want to have an outsized voice by promoting an individualism that can’t be expressed through standard uniforming.

That is one possible interpretation. Another possibility is the scouts are mocking those whom said alliance is being proffered. Another possibility is the scouts were just trying to have fun and be goofy. 

There are other possibilities as well. Likely the true intent of the scouts is one of the other possibilities. We should be careful to not ascribe intent based on our own interpretations which are clouded by our own experiences and biases. 

If it were me and they were my scouts I would start by engaging in a conversation in a non-judgemental manner. (With a smile)... "Hey Jimmy I saw you wearing tights and a tutu, I don't think I have seen that before. How did you come up with that?"

1 hour ago, mrjohns2 said:

No thank you. Scouts already have too much school at school. I hate the worksheets/ workbooks. 

I agree. I did not like the worksheets in the later 20th C and we are now more than twenty years into the next. We can move past the worksheets and even the pamphlets. If we want to modernize them, do not just make digital versions of the paper product instead we go to video. "how to do a j-stroke" video. Wait, it already exists thanks to the experts at canoeing tv on youtube.  All that is necessary is for national to keep a website updated with the the requirements. No pdf necessary, just the website and links to relevant youtube videos for specific information. I would not recommend they try to parse all the links by requirement, instead just a broad list (at most parse it by category). Continuing with the canoeing example:

Canoeing mB Requirements (current date)

1.

2.

3.

etc...

Resources:

link to American Canoe Association Website

link to other canoeing websites

How to Videos:

link to ACA videos on youtube

link to other videos...

Broken Link Report Button

District and Council events are mostly the antithesis of patrol method camping anyway. I discourage them (to the adults).

I could not complete it. Survey question #3 about which is least compelling, I cannot answer. All are equally compelling (to me).

It used to be that the troop would have a library of pamphlets which the troop librarian would be in charge. The librarian would keep records of which scout borrowed which pamphlet, ensure the pamphlets were up to date, etc... A troop usually did not have all mBs in the library but would have multiple copies of the popular ones. 

IMO, if summer camp utilizes a dininig hall, scouts should not be able to use those days towards camping merit badge. #PuttingOnFlameRetardantSuit

IMO, if summer camp utilizes a dininig hall, scouts should not be able to use those days towards camping merit badge. #PuttingOnFlameRetardantSuit

IMO, the real reason to do a roll your own camp is to do a completely original adventure.

- canoe trip

-backpacking trip

-bike/hike

-WW rafting

-wilderness survival/bushcraft

-fishing

... or combinations. 

Inherent to any roll your own is patrol (or individual) cooking including the menu planning, shopping and prepping.

All of these can incorporate one or more merit badges IF any of the scouts care to work on them, but the focus is fun/adventure not mBs.

I do not think trying to replicate a merit badge based BSA camp is likely to save all that much $ when all is said and done. As I began, the purpose of a roll your own is to do just that... something that is your own.

6 hours ago, yknot said:

The only other nonethnic youth activity I know apart from scouts that incorporated something like face paint as a rite of passage was foxhunting. Young members of the Pack would get "blooded" the first time they managed to arrive at a kill with the rest of the field. Their faces were marked, sometimes with fox blood, sometimes with something more benign. However, modern day outlooks have changed and fox killing is viewed differently and blooding, or the simulation of blooding, has like many other dated practices pretty much faded away. It's hard to understand then why proponents are so determined to keep things like Native American inspired face painting in scouting, particularly OA, when it has nothing to do with what youth actually do in scouts. Scouting is patch, badge, pin,  sash, flag, and ribbon mad: There must be some impressive regalia unique to scouts and OA, and in keeping with the organization's own insignia traditions, that could be created to replace using symbols of Native American culture like paint or feathers. In the present day, putting war paint on scouts seems as odd and out of the mainstream as putting fake fox blood on young riders. 

My initial thought to your opening statement was "eye black" used by athletes. While functional in nature, it has also begun to be used as merely decoration. 

My second thought was seeing kids at school athletic contests. Many will paint their faces with school colors,  a specific athlete's jersey #, or (during homecoming) their graduation year.

I often see little kids with face paint at festivals, usually some cartoon character.

As I was finishing my thoughts here I also realized that many adultsvwill use face paint especially at sporting events, like NFL games.

I guess my point is that the more I thought about it, the more common face paint in today's culture really is.  However your point about it being specific to a "rite of passage" is something different and well put.

I agree the SM (and all adults) should have the mindset and character necessary to serve the scouts. In addition to the focused vision of the SM, the "how tos" using the patrol method, motto, oath, etc... must be shared and understood by the rest of the Scouters especially the ASMs. Communicating to the Committee the "how tos", their alignment to the vision and the direct line linking the methods to the aims will not just help the committee to understand but also facilitate the SMs work. The necessary (thin yet unbreakable) thread within all of this is as you alluded to with the servant leadership,  Adult Association as a method. The scouts need to see, witness, and experience first hand the adults demonstrating the highest level of leadership, communication, patrol method, character, etc... The Scouters should be hyper-focused on being  exemplars whom the scouts WILL emulate.

Perhaps we can use this thread to impart some specific examples of "how tos" , their connection to a vision and use of the patrol method to maximize SM effectiveness?

A go-to resource for the scouts for information, mB cards, recommendations, etc is a worthwhile ASM duty for a very large troop.

If a troop does have an ASM dedicated/focused on advancement, that person should be acutely aware of the slipperiness of advancement as a method to advancement as an aim. The ASM should be careful to ensure advancement is the scout's journey and not push, prod, nor carry the scout along for the ride. Good are gentle reminders posed as questions such as "hey bobby, how is the archery mB going? You got a partial at camp last summer right?" As stated this role can slide a troop into advancement as an Aim and worse not belong to the Scout. 

1 hour ago, Tron said:

Probably the easiest option is to run units slim: minimal equipment on the property book; liquidate rainy day fund into action now to prevent LC snatching later on. 

Perhaps this might bring scouting back to its "earn/build your own" roots. Scouts making their own gear, or saving money to buy their own. Less "troop gear" might be a blessing. One of the vestiges of the oft demeaned heritage patrols was the gear the patrol made, and/or purchased themselves. It was the patrols stuff, not the troops.

2 hours ago, ThenNow said:

Thanks. I’ve posted that before and never received anything but emotional responses. No factual rebuttal.

I’m not saying BSA did “nothing,” just to be clear. Also, the standards of the day are still irrelevant here. The issue is, was it “concealment,” as defined? We have to look at all of these facts today, on July 2, 2022. That’s where we are and all we have. This is one state’s definition:

To establish fraudulent concealment, a plaintiff must prove (1) that the defendant took affirmative action to conceal the cause of action or remained silent and failed to disclose material facts despite a duty to do so and, (2) the plaintiff could not have discovered the cause of action despite exercising reasonable care and diligence.

The third essential element of fraudulent concealment is knowledge on the part of the defendant of facts giving rise to the cause of action. In other words, the defendant must be aware of the wrong.

The fourth and final essential element of fraudulent concealment is a concealment of material information from the plaintiff.

§42.9 Fraudulent Concealment Exception to Statute of Limitations, TN

I am not an attorney so please forgive me, but wouldn't the standards of the day be VERY relevant as to establishing (or not) fraudulent concealment at that time?

Now I am curious as to other's super secret peach cobbler recipes. Mine is just the typical dump cake style; nuttin' fancy.