DuctTape

I suppose I am using "efficiency" in the most vague, most broad way. I think they all stem from lack of trust of the scouts and the program.

First step I would suggest is the troop committee all take the training together. This way they begin on the same page, understanding their roles/responsibilities and excising the pre-concieved beliefs which are not part of their roles.

One area in which we all can improve is the removal of barriers to the Patrol Method. In general, all of the things adults do to make it easier or more efficient which could be done by scouts may be barriers to developing the patrol method. For example, adults towing the troop trailer which stores equipment to the campout for easy access to gear which allows scouts to go back/forth whenever something is needed. This habit denies the patrol the opportunity to communicate, plan ahead, and learn to cooperate. Better would be the following: While planning the outing, the patrol determines which equipment they will need. The patrol QM (ad hoc) requests the equipment from the troop QM. The equipment is divided up among the patrol to be packed with their personal gear. Each patrol member is responsible for specific items. The patrol QM keeps track (a list?) of who has what. Upon return, the patrol mates return the equipment to the patrol QM who then returns it to the troop QM to store in the trailer. It is very common when I bring up these types of examples for adults to "defend their practice". While they sometimes have legitimate reasons, almost always they are just trying to justify their interference as they fail to even consider the positive rationale for doing it differently (ie, letting the scouts do it.). What other "adult efficiencies" are barriers to the Patrol Method?

Yes. This is my experience too. I have my suspicions as to why, but nothing close to definitive.

A long time ago I worked at a video store which had a contract with the local prison to provide movies. We were given a list of "prohibited content" to exclude from the tapes we would send them. No specific film titles were excluded, just general content.

When McDs was developing the egg mcmuffin, they were trying to make "eggs benedict" into a sandwich. They had difficulty with hollandaise sauce (too messy I presume) and then "someone" suggested to top it with a piece of cheese and the mcmuffin was born. Another method is to make a "square" version using pie irons to fry the egg, and a square ciabatta roll instead of an english muffin. Bonus is those that want "panini style" can finish their sandwich in the pie iron (gets the cheese all melty). I usually forego the egg as they are a relative pain to pack and use extra cheese (a nice swiss or cheddar) and either sausage or ham instead of canadian bacon. All gets cooked on a tiny grill over the fire. The addition of a tomato slice and/or avocado makes it delish.

yeah. they can also spend two weeks at summer camp living under canvas but never once preparing their own meals, or doing anything resembling the patrol method.

Barry is spot on. This a great opportunity for scouts; adults should not deny them by doing what the scouts can do for themselves.

If the State has an "open meetings" law, this practice may be illegal. Often there are strict laws governing what may be discussed in executive session. At the very least it is unethical. The purpose of public meetings is to discuss (debate) issues.

As examples, they are to help guide not be exhaustive lists. The counselor approves the specific meeting based on the purpose of requirement.

I have always viewed the motto as a character mindset which complements the slogan, "do a good turn daily". For me, "be prepared" is NOT about gear, but one's character to make the ethical decision and willingness to act on it. "Are you prepared to do what is right?"

I was a reader/lurker for a few years before I "joined". I remember some big debates and some time-outs but it was not as far back as you guys have been here.

I know. The adults make it difficult. Often trying to find "loopholes" to take away from the reqs, or ways to add to them. A high quality mB counselor understands the reqs as written and helps the scout complete them. The problem arises when unqualified folks sign up to be a mB counselor and the district does no vetting beyond YP.

While the requirements may not state "debate" at the meeting, a public meeting following Roberts Rules any discussion of a motion is considered "debate". Only during this time can any viewpoints be given. Thus the requirement to attend (not view online IMO) a meeting with differeling viewpoints presented can only occur during "debate". Yes, it is semantic. I think the focus on the "public" is missing the point of the requirement. Public means you can attend, private is closed to "the public".

+1 on the sawyer squeeze.

Certainly there are some. I posit those are the exceptions and not the rule, at least in my experience. The same is true for many mB counselors outside of the "college/camp" as you state. Hence why I put the blame on council/district as they do not ensure mB counselors are vetted, trained etc... and worse are complicit in organizing events which basically require the ignoring of requirements and deny scouts real opportunities.

Exactly. The mB counselor provides much more than just a "sign-off", the sessions are opportunities for the scout to benefit from the adult association method, to learn from an expert. If the scout is really into the topic and has done so much they are "ready to be signed off" and are, then the scout is denied the opportunity to really benefit from associating with an adult who has a similar passion in the field.

This highlights the failure of councils who see advancement as the goal, not as a method. Yes I blame councils as they push the "mb colleges" and "camp mbs" which do not follow requirements, or even the GTA. These events, a 3-hr sit/stare/signoff are an abomination to both methods. mBs as advancement and the adult association methods go hand-in-hand. As a mB counselor I meet with scouts a minimum of twice. The first is "a scout learns", the second is "the scout is tested". The test does not take place simultaeneously with the learn. Some might query, "but what if the scout already knows it"? In which case I would respond, I have never had a scout know the content at greater depth or have more experience than I. Thus the first meeting still provides some level of learning and the scout benefits also from the adult association. -my2cents

The issues stated are not blue card issues, they are a result of adults doing what the scouts should be doing for themselves. Barry is spot on.

I think the detailed rules were a result of adults not using the method appropriately. I do agree that they have also become a metric of success instead of a means to an end.

I must admit that I used to be much less concerned or even aware of my uniform in the years past. Having read TLS's posts over the years regarding uniforming and insignia has changes my viewpoint. I was not one to knowingly ignore the guide to insignia, I was instead simply non-chalant about it. TLS posts have been enlightening for me. The reminder of the uniform as a method, like advancement etc... really hit home. When we discuss the Patrol Method, we espouse the desire to reach the ideal. We do not chastise when we fall short, but instead recognize where we trying to improve to get closer to the ideal. If someone was to come to this forum and state how they refuse to use the patrol method, we would espouse the virtues of the method and how it, in concert with the other methods, IS Scouting. When discussing advancement as a method, we often use the phrase, "no adding (or subtracting) from the requirements". This protocol can be viewed as one of the base tenets of BSA advancement philosphy. One could also see it as a tenet of all BSA methods. I could go on with the other methods, however my main point is not that one method is more important than the others, nor is one inferior to the others. My point is that all the methods work together to achieve the Aims of Scouting. Willful disregard of the methods in part or whole only makes achieving the goals more difficult. We should strive for the ideal in each of the methods. So thank you to TLS for his years of posting in defense of the uniform as a method. It was not that long ago when I finally saw the light.

The problem IMHO is that the system is backwards. The councils primary function should be to support the units. It appears the council believes the units should support the council. The units primary function is to support the patrols. The patrols primary function is to support each other.

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First step in advancement is A Scout Learns. The test of the requirement comes later. However, since it was asked how to test 4b. One possible test could be to do it on a campout where no roads exist in the forest. The scout would still have to use the digital map to determine their route to their desired location. The gps would provide updated current location to help them course correct. The extreme version would be to do this in an area without cell coverage in which case the gps app would only give lat/long and the scout would have to use a pre-downloaded (or paper) map to navigate.

Awesome! The scouts got to experience "camp life" as BP explains is very different from "living under canvas" which he didn't care for. From Aids to Scoutmastership, " Any ass, so to speak, can live under canvas where he is one of a herd with everything done for him;"