BrentAllen

Kudu writes: "Scout Spirit requirements, Scoutmaster Conferences, and Boards of Review are designed to keep a Boy Scout Troop adult-run. They are a flat rejection of Baden-Powell." Come on, now, Kudu. All three of these are in the holy grail of Scouting (3rd Edition, SM Handbook). Are you saying Green Bar Bill's SM HB is a flat-out rejection of Baden-Powell??

I think good ol' Leaky Leahy is still due a prosecution or two. The fact that he continues to be elected is an absolute embarassment to his state, and to our country.

raisin, These tents are very good for both car camping and backpacking. I was taught, and continue to teach, buddy system camping. 2 boys per tent. Add even one more Scout and they get much less sleep. For each additional Scout added to a tent, the amount of sleep lost grows exponentially. These tents are fine in size for the boys. They are a little tight for adults. On car camping trips, I take a Taurus-4 for the adults, and we will put up to 3 adults in it. I'm getting into hammock camping http://www.mosquitohammock.com/ - see Expedition Hammock - so I either take it and/or my MSR Trekker Tarp on backpacking trips. I was also taught, and continue to teach, that backpacks and equipment don't go in tents - they stay outside either under the rain fly, or are hung on a stick lashed to a tree (pack rack) - which helps keep lashing skills fresh. Backpacks can ruin a tent floor. If the boys pack their clothes in zip lock bags, one day's worth per bag, then that is all they need to take into the tent with them. Why do they need to take their entire pack? We haven't had any tent damage issues so far (knock on wood). If we did, the boys and their families would work it out, just as CA mentioned. We have had similar experiences with the tents - camping in absolute frog-stranglers and they stayed completely dry. One last point - I like both tents, and we own both. The Taurus is easier to set up than the Half Dome. The poles on the Half Dome have an upside and a downside - if they are put on upside down, they won't work (there is a hanger where the poles meet on top). Also, the fly has to be put on correctly, or the doorway on the rainfly won't match the rainfly on the tent. Not really a big deal, but the boys do have to pay more attention with that tent.

Alps Mountaineering, Taurus 2-man, aluminum poles. Retails for $199.99, Scout price is $128.00 thru Scoutdirect.com http://www.alpsmountaineering.com/ALPSMountaineeringTaurus.htm http://www.scoutdirect.com/ Other option would be REI Half Dome. Retails for $169, occasionally on sale for $139, had them down to $99 a few years ago. http://www.rei.com/product/728308 The Taurus is a little bigger than the Half Dome, and little heavier. Nearly every Scout in our Troop has one of these two tents; we've been very pleased with them. (Our Troop doesn't buy tents, the boys use their own)(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Buffalo, This may not be a direct answer to your question, but still might help in the long run. When Patrol Leaders are wisely chosen they seldom represent a problem to the Scoutmaster. Yet, occasions may occur when a Patrol Leader goes "rampant," loses his sense of proportions and seems to disregard his responsibilities entirely. This may be the case with the new Patrol Leader in whom consciousness of his official importance is undeveloped. All such instances should be handled in private conversation between the Scoutmaster and the boy leader, with the "treatment" taking the form of kindly, but none the less positive advice. The boy should be made to realize that as Patrol Leader he must be a model for the other members of his Patrol, and that his failure to live up to the Scout ideals is a more serious offence than the failure of a Scout in the ranks. Occasionally a Patrol Leader becomes indifferent to the progress of his Patrol and fails to demonstrate sufficient interest in the welfare of his boys. Such cases may be solved--(1) by arousing the Patrol Leader's ambition through stimulating inter-Patrol games and contests, (2) by making him and his Patrol temporary onlookers instead of participants in some of the more interesting activities of the Troop, (3) or (and this should be the last resort) by removing the Patrol Leader from his office. In the handling of all such problems it is imperative that discretion be excercised constantly so that the Patrol Leader will have no opportunity to feel that he is being unfairly discriminated against or that any animosity exists. Green Bar Bill

Stosh, On one hand, you say older boys will leave if you treat them like 7th graders, but then you say your older boys left because they wanted to be treated like 7th graders. Interesting. Maybe there are other issues that leave SMs scratching their heads, wondering why their boys dropped out. Barry, I'm a big believer in the "adventure" idea. It is the glue in Scouting. While it can be difficult to come up with a really exciting adventure every month, I think if a Troop can put together a really special trip once every 8 - 10 months, those trips provide the "glue" to hold Scouts in for nearly a year. I think when the PLC gets ready for our next annual planning conference, I will suggest each PL ask each patrol member to think about what would be their best trip ever to go on, and suggest that. I don't think we've ever phrased the question in that manner. I look forward to seeing what they come up with.

scoutldr, I'm not disagreeing with your point, but I also keep hearing that older boys are leaving because they haven't been given ownership of the Troop, the opportunity to run the show. The dilema becomes how can the older boys run the Troop at Summer Camp if they aren't there? If they are off doing their own high adventure thing, who provides the leadership in the Troop? I understand the need for more challenging activities for the older boys. I think balancing that need with the operation of the Troop is one of the greatest challenges for a SM.

So, you think an 11 year old boy actually knows if he wants to be in a NSP versus an established patrol? He understands the differences between the two concepts and how they work? He actually has enough knowledge and experience to make that decision? That he has the ability to see the consequences of that decision? Pretty amazing for a boy who just crossed over into the program. The SM provides the vision for the Troop, which includes the cooperation and competition between Patrols to reach that vision. A Patrol that is a clique is a problem. By definition, they only want to hang with each other and do what they want to do, as opposed to a Patrol that is a gang that also understands they have responsibilities and obligations to the Troop. They understand if it wasn't for the Troop, they wouldn't have a Patrol.

mmhardy, Exactly! Group opinion among the Scouts in the Patrol is one of the most potent factors in determining conduct. A Scoutmaster at best sees his Scouts but a few hours each week. The Scouts, on the other hand, are meeting each other all through the week in school and at play, and are influencing each other for good or evil. Is is for this reason that the Scout Ideals, developed in the Patrol, may be even as important as the personal influence of the Scoutmaster in shaping the character habits of the Scouts. This again shows how necessary it is that the Scoutmaster himself trains his boy leaders toward this ideal. Green Bar Bill

Yes, and Venture Patrols still work to the betterment of the Troop. It sounds to me like your idea of servant leadership stops at the Patrol. If you believe in traditional BSA Scouting, it's hard to get more traditional than William Hilcourt. Older boys leave for a variety of reasons. I believe you stated all your older boys had left. Was it because they were being treated as 7th graders? Or they were going back to the same Summer Camp for the 5th year?

DeanRx, I suggest taking a look at page 26 of the G2SS. This is BSA policy, not just our own policies. Bold type throughout the guide denotes BSA rules and policies. In bold: "The Boy Scouts of America prohibits the use of alcoholic beverages and controlled substances at encampments or activities on property owned and/or operated by the Boy Scouts of America, or at any activity involving participation of youth members." In that rule, the BSA treats alcohol and drugs as the same. Any camping trip with Scouts would be an "activity involving participation of youth members."

Is it advisable to have the boys of the Patrol all of the same age? It would seem that this might be the ideal condition, but experience proves otherwise, for often a Patrol so organized turns into an independent clique, with clique spirit instead of Patrol Spirit, and all members of such a Patrol are likely to graduate from Scouting at one time. Save in exceptional circumstances, the best Patrol consists of boys of varying ages. This make-up simplifies the job of the Patrol Leader and tends to insure the permanency of the Patrol. It also presents opportunities for the older Scouts to train and help the younger ones, at times at the cost of sacrificing some of their own wishes for the sake of the Patrol as a whole, a point which adds to the growth of the proper spirit. Once a boy has qualified as a Scout and is admitted to a Patrol, he should be expected to remain a member of that Patrol until he severs his connection with the Troop or is promoted into Troop leadership, unless some compelling reason develops for a change. In a Troop in which boys are shuffled together at frequent intervals and dealt out into new Patrols according to the whim of the Scoutmaster, there obviously can be little opportunity for the development of Patrol spirit and Patrol traditions. Green Bar Bill

I've seen some different interpretations about Patrol Method vs. so-called Troop Method here on the board. This is what Green Bar Bill had to say about it back in 1938. I haven't found too many things I disagree with him about. SM Handbook, 3rd Edition, pg. 220 The mistake has been made by many Scout Leaders of confusing Patrol Method with Patrol Work, making the two synonymous. This notion, naturally, is entirely wrong. The Patrol Method does not imply that the Patrols be let loose and permitted to run each in its own direction independent of the others. On the contrary, unless it promotes the coordination and cooperation of the Patrols--for the good of the common denominator, the Troop--the Patrol Method fails. A Patrol is not a clique sufficient unto itself, but a gang living at one and the same time its own life and the life of a larger group, just as family lives in its own life and in the life of the community. As the Handbook for Patrol Leaders definitely makes clear (Chapter III) no Patrol exists for and by itself alone. It has another part to play aside from its important individual life. Every Patrol has its obligation toward and its share in THE LARGER LIFE OF THE TROOP. A Patrol could never have the truest kind of Patrol spirit unless is also had, in a very active way, genuine Troop spirit, pride in the Troop as a whole, eagerness to help the Troop make a good showing in whatever it undertakes, devotion to Troop traditions, Troop ideals, and especially to the Troop's leaders. Patrol Cooperation and Competition Each Patrol should want to be the best possible Patrol in the Troop, not alone for its own sake but also because the best possible Patrols make the best possible Troop. It may be said that the relations between the Patrols should be characterized by approximately EQUAL PROPORTIONS OF COOPERATION AND COMPETITION. It is important for the unity and strength of the Troop that the Patrols cooperate willingly, readily and effectively. It is helpful to the development of Patrol spirit that there be a sustained friendly competition between the Patrols to reach high standards. pg. 163 The Patrols are the working units in Scouting, while the Troop organization provides supervision and coordination, and establishes loyalty and opportunities for service. In other words, a Troop is NOT divided into Patrols. A TROOP IS THE SUM TOTAL OF ITS PATROLS. (emphasis NOT added)

Eamonn, Are you sure you are on the right web page? Looks like you were doing an online confessional. :-) Back before my son joined Cubs, the CM told me about a Pack Family Camping trip in the spring at one of our council camps. As one of the the dads was unloading their gear, a 12-pack of beer loses it's bottom, and the cans go rolling all over the parking lot. That family and another ended up having a good ol' time around the campfire, until about 1:00 in the morning. Lots of unhappy neighbors in the morning. Most camps I know have designated smoking areas. I don't have a problem with anyone smoking in those areas, or anywhere out of sight of the Scouts. While not healthy, smoking isn't nearly as dangerous as alcohol. I haven't heard of too many cases of smoking causing a driver to become impaired, leading to a crash and multiple deaths. Alcoholic beverages have no place in Scouting when youth are involved - period. R-rate movies? To Scouts?? I don't think I'd get a second chance on that one in our Troop. I make sure I get permission for any movie we show. When I was CM, we put together an outdoor movie event at our local nature center. We showed Jungle Book one year, and Follow Me Boys the next. As SM, I have shown Remember the Titans, Master & Commander, and October Sky at special training events. If you can't find PG or PG-13 movies the boys want to watch, you aren't looking hard enough.

Stosh, You appear to be pretty far off the reservation. I doubt I'm going to be able to answer your questions, but I'll try. For starters, all the equipment is Troop equipment. It all belongs to the CO. It may be assigned to a Patrol, but by the charter, it belongs to your CO. Those holding Troop positions other than SPL, ASPL and TG are still members of their Patrol, so a DC is still an active member of his Patrol. So no, he shouldn't sit around with nothing to do. He should be on the duty roster like all the other patrol members.

I sure wouldn't want to have my signature as SM on an Eagle application for a Scout who filled a POR requirement with a Patrol position, other than PL. I can't find anything in any of the BSA literature that would allow me to come up with that interpretation for the POR requirement. Twocubdad, As to your original post, I would explain to the parents that there are only so many positions, and if their son wants one of them in the near future, he needs to demonstrate his ability to lead and be responsible. Have great attendance, be the first to lend a hand, be an outstanding Scout, etc. You have an opportunity for the Scouts to really ratchet up their commitment and dedication to the Troop, in an effort to "earn" those PORs. If you just create more positions to keep everybody happy, you do the opposite.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this "stimulus" bill contain tax cuts? Aren't we still at war? Surely, Obama wouldn't do anything so terrible as give tax cuts while we are at war, would he? I was under the impression that 9/11 did create an economic crisis. Yes, look at where we are now. Thanks to the Democrats forcing banks to give loans and mortgages to people who couldn't afford them. I'll probably go to my grave still hearing Barney Frank and Franklin Raines claiming that Freddie and Fannie are just fine, no worries!

Luckily I don't have to deal with most of the issues you listed. One infraction of most of those wouldn't get anyone a "do not return" letter. I would not hesitate to let any leader or parent know the language and smoking issues are not acceptable in front of the boys. The alcohol is the one that sticks out. If a leader were to ever show up drunk, I would remove them/ have them removed. Alcohol on a scout reservation is a sure way to get the entire unit sent home. If an adult couldn't go an entire weekend without a drink, I don't think I need them around. I tell the boys (and make sure the parents hear) that there are two things I can't stand - litter and bad language. Seeing litter on the ground hurts my eyes, just as if someone were shining a very bright flashlight directly in them. Hearing bad language hurts my ears, just as if someone were standing there screaming at the top of their lungs. If they want me to volunteer my time to be SM and help with camping trips, I better not see or hear either one. So far, this has worked very well. I'm no saint, and I used to use some pretty colorful language (hey, I was in a fraternity), but I take the role of modeling as SM very seriously. And believe it or not, I have found you can still communicate very well without having to include the foul language. :-)

President Obama in the Op Ed: "But they (US citizens) have no patience for the same old partisan gridlock that stands in the way of action while our economy continues to slide." No, we have no patience for the same old pork-barrel political process, where "me-first" politicians (on both sides of the isle) add in worthless pet projects without any public scrutiny. Let's have just a tiny bit of that "transparency" you promised during the election, and make those politicians that added all the ridiculous pork have to stand up in public and defend their earmarks.

We bought a good bit of manilla from this company, and have been very pleased. http://www.e-rigging.com/store_products.cfm?Subcat_ID=210&Cat_ID=50&Menu_Choice=Catalog Their prices were much lower than others, so when I called, I said we would be using it for Boy Scout lashing projects and asked if this rope would be appropriate. She said her son was in Scouts, and they use it all the time. We purchased 1,200' of 1/4" and 600' of 1/2". We picked up a 100' piece of 3/4" for our monkey bridge. We might look at replacing that with 1" in the future.

I'm still waiting for MY president to lead by example. How about some change I can believe in? "President Obama lectured voters during the campaign about the need to make sacrifices for the environment. But now it's warm and toasty in the White House -- so much so that aides have likened it to a tropical hot house -- and Obama is under fire for turning up the heat. Obama made climate change a staple of his stump speech last year, calling on Americans to lower their energy use and set a model for the rest of the world in combating climate change. During a campaign event in Oregon in May, Obama said we have to "lead by example." "We can't drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times," he said. "That's not leadership. That's not going to happen." But for the first few weeks of his presidency, that's precisely what has happened in the White House. Though he's spent more than 20 years in Chicago, the president was born in Hawaii. And so he "likes it warm" in the Oval Office, said Chief of Staff David Axelrod. "You could grow orchids in there," he told the New York Times. With few orchids growing in the heartland, critics are saying that Obama -- who urged individual sacrifice in an inaugural address that called for a "new era of responsibility" -- hasn't been willing to bear the cold with the rest of the country. "It's stunning hypocrisy," said Christopher Horner, a senior fellow at the Competitive Enterprise Institute and author of two books critical of global warming activists. "Obama spins the dial up, takes off his coat and seeks to mandate that we turn the dial down," he said." Well, at least he and Gore are consistent hypocrites.

Stosh, I'm glad that system works for you, but it is not the BSA method now, nor was it in the past. And for the record, Cub Scouts has only been around for 78 years, not 100. 3rd Edition SM Handbook (1938) The Scoutmaster HIMSELF greets the boy and makes him feel at home. pg. 234 (emphasis NOT added) Current Edition, Troop Program Resources, Ceremonies There are three Webelos-To-Scout Ceremonies described, and all three have the SM receiving and welcoming the new member. The Packs that welcomed you, as SM, to attend are following correct protocol. Bottom line is the boy is joining a Troop and will become a member of a Patrol. I think it is entirely appropriate for the SM to welcome the boy to the Troop. He most likely won't join a Patrol until later. To say that having the SM welcome the Scout indicates that a Troop isn't boy-lead, or isn't using the Patrol method is simply false.

"You should know better than to take campaign rhetoric seriously from any candidate on either side." SR540Beaver, Yes, I should have known better. "Change you can believe in" is nothing but campaign rhetoric. The only thing we can believe in from this administration is SS, DD.

I earned my beads as a CM, and had the beading ceremony at the end of one of our Pack meetings. It took about 10 minutes. The CD did a good job of presenting the ceremony in a manner the boys would enjoy and understand. Look at it this way - this ceremony might inspire some of the other leaders to seek out more training, and maybe even attend WB. After the beading ceremony, one of the dads told me his son, a Wolf at the time, said he was going to get his WB beads someday. That boy is now a Webelos II - he visited our Troop and is going to join us when he crosses over. Needless to say, we are very pleased to be getting this young man, who is very excited about Scouting.

Two conflicting reports in the Atlanta press: "Suleman, a 33-year-old single mother, already had six children, ages 2 to 7 when she gave birth to her octuplets on Jan. 26." http://www.ajc.com/news/content/shared-gen/ap/National/Octuplets.html?cxntlid=thbz_hm "They confirmed that their mother now has 14 children. Making things a little trickier, the woman's husband will soon be returning to Iraq to serve." http://www.wsbtv.com/health/18600993/detail.html The good news is she appears to be set to write/ have written a book about her experience. Maybe she will generate enough income to take care of her kids.