BrentAllen

From his speech Tuesday night: OBAMA: I m proud that we passed a recovery plan free of earmarks. What??? I guess we are back to what the definition of -is- is. ______________________________________________________ On another issue.. http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6960824&page=1 The Obama administration will seek to reinstate the assault weapons ban that expired in 2004 during the Bush administration, Attorney General Eric Holder said today. -As President Obama indicated during the campaign, there are just a few gun-related changes that we would like to make, and among them would be to reinstitute the ban on the sale of assault weapons,- Holder told reporters. What Obama actually said during the campaign: -I believe in the Second Amendment, and if you are a law-abiding gun owner you have nothing to fear from an Obama administration,- Obama said. -This has been peddled again and again. Here's what I believe: The Second Amendment is an indvidual right. . . people have the right to bear arms. The good news is this is setting up to be a repeat of 1993.

Mafaking (phasers on), I doubt that 45 year old Scouter is wearing it to impress you. I sure wouldn't be. I have a good friend who is 83 who wears a Philmont patch on his right pocket. He was a SM for 34 years, a WB CD (old course) and has just about done it all. He has no need to impress anyone. He doesn't wear that patch to impress anyone, only to remind himself of what a great trip he had. (phasers off) :-) Mike R., I don't think you will find NT filling up like Philmont does. If there is only one week you can go, then you need to be ready by April 1. If your dates are flexible, I don't think you need to sweat it too much. It seems like I recently saw an email where NT still had openings for 2009, but I could be wrong. If the patches are a big deal to the boys (I still like getting them myself), also remember there is the BSA National High Adventure Triple Crown, for attending all 3 national HA programs. If the boys attend Philmont and Sea Base, but go private at BWCA, they would have been close, but no cigar. Just something else to consider... http://www.holry.org/triplecrownaward.php

John, I think this is the section you are refering to: ACPP #33088, pg. 34 Advancement in Summer Camp Camp merit badge counselors must be qualified (see "Qualifications of Counselors," page 13). Camp staff members who are qualified in the subject and are younger than age 18 may assist the merit badge counselor with instruction. The merit badge counselor or instructor in a particular subject should be available to both individuals and groups. However, regardless of the class format, each Scout must be reviewed individually by the counselor to ensure completion of the badge's requirements. Because of the need for continued practice in some subjects, it will be necessary to meet candidates at a certain time each day. For other subjects, it may be necessary to meet as a group once or twice during the week. Each counselor must maintain the exact standards as outlined in the merit badge requirements - nothing deleted, nothing added - and make himself or herself available at the time most convenient to the Scouts. Partial completion of merit badges should be credited to a Scout on the Application for Merit Badge and given to the Scoutmaster at the end of the week.

This is the language provided in our Council camp guide: MERIT BADGE COMPLETION REPORTS At the end of your camp week, Woodruff will provide your unit with a printed, individual summary report of all merit badge classes attended and the status of completion. Participants in Mountain Man will receive a checklist of items accomplished during the week. We do not issue MB-Blue Cards. CAMP ADVANCEMENT POLICY Woodruff camp staff members are responsible for skill instruction as well as verification that a scout has demonstrated a skill, completed a merit badge or fulfilled an advancement requirement. Camp staff do not sign off on any advancement or merit badge requirements, rather they report the achievement to the unit leader via the end of camp advancement reports. It is the responsibility of the unit leader to actually award credit for completing advancement or merit badge requirements.

MB Counselors are required to be 18 years old. Are you talking about teaching the material while working with an approved MB Counselor, or working alone? I see no problem with the former, as long as the Scout really knows the material.

We conduct the Investiture Ceremony for new Scouts when they join, similar to the others with the candles for the Law and Oath. At our December COH, we have a covered dish dinner and make it a big family deal. We have a couple of Hindu families, so we get to broaden our palate that night.

Guy, If the SM doesn't buy into the concept, you are going to have a pretty hard time with any change. If you can get the SM's ear and get him to really listen to your argument, you might have a chance at trying some baby steps. If you can't convince him that the Patrol Method idea is workable, your final argument might be - Scouting is an experiment. It always has been. Let's just try it and see what happens. If it doesn't work out, we can at least say we tried. But to say we have tried, we have to give the idea an honest chance. Let's try it for a certain period of time (probably at least 3 months) and see if we have any success. The nature of those baby steps would be determined based on where the Troop is now. Are the patrols really run by their Patrol Leaders? Does the PLC plan the Troop meetings? Does the SPL chair the PLC meetings? Take a look at every step in preparing for a meeting or a campout, and see if an adult is doing the task, or a Scout. For those the adults are doing, can a Scout be given the task? Start with a few tasks, and add more as the boys can handle them. Duty Rosters and menu planning/food buying may be good places to start for campouts. For meetings, are different patrols in charge of different parts of the meeting? We have one patrol in charge of the gathering activity/game. The other patrol is in charge of the opening ceremony (these rotate every week). Do you have a Scribe who records attendance? If this plan is laid out correctly, the adult leaders should see their jobs actually getting easier. They don't have to do as much of the planning, it's up to the boys. If you can get the adult leaders pointed in this direction, you have won more than half the battle. Now you just slowly start transfering more planning work from the adults to the boys. Pretty soon, you won't even remember the "old way" the Troop was run. :-) Good luck! One final thought - if the adults are interfering with the meetings, set up some activity in another room to get them out of the way. Whether it is discussing an upcoming trip or training, or talking about MB counseling, find something to get them out of the room. I know some Troops that only allow uniformed leaders in the room for Troop meetings. That gets rid of most of the adults. If your uniformed leaders are causing the problem, that is going to be a little harder to do.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Kudu writes: "The old books do not force regular elections on Patrols. The idea was to find the Patrol's BEST leader and to stick with HIM. You will not find regular elections in the old books." Sorry, my friend, but you do find regular elections in the old books. 3rd Edition, SMHB, pg. 187 TERM OF OFFICE As a general rule, a Patrol Leader may be kept in office as long as he gets results. Nevertheless, it is advisable to make public to the Troop the fact that the term of office is for a predetermined length of time, such as one year, and that after that the Patrol Leader may be eligible for reelection. This will simplify the matter greatly in instances where a Patrol Leader has performed poorly and might have to be asked to step down in order to permit more efficient leadership to take his place. If conditions arise which necessitate a change in Patrol Leaders before the end of the year, such as would occur in the case of resignation, transfer or removal, the office should be filled at once, preferably by the advancement of the Assistant Patrol Leader. The new leader will then remain in office for the remiander of the year, when he may be available for reelection to a "second term." It is well to keep in mind that as many boys as possible should have an opportunity to gain leadership experience. For that reason no single individual should be allowed to "monopolize" the Patrol Leadership over a long period of time to the exclusion of other capable and worthy Scouts. But when a Patrol Leader moves out of that position the Scoutmaster should see to it that some other opportunity opens up for him so that he may continue his interest.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Jeff, For someone with as much Scouting experience as you claim, it is amazing how clueless you can be. What is the Scoutmaster's most important job, according to B-P? Training boy leaders to run their Troop. Train Scouts for a job, then let them do it. Now, I can understand how someone whose training technique is sitting on their rearend would be confused by seeing actual training is process. But that is what you just saw - TRAINING the boys to lead their Troop, not sitting on my rearend waiting for them to figure it out. Saturday morning, by time the boys got up, had breakfast and cleaned up, we hit the water around 11:00 AM. That meant we were only able to get to Billy's Island that day. So, that evening I pulled the PLs together and asked "where do you want to go tomorrow?" They wanted to go to Minnie's Lake, to the day-use platform for lunch. I asked them how long it would take us to get there, and they did the math, based on our canoeing pace on Saturday. From there, they backed up to how long it would take for breakfast and clean-up, and then back to reveille. The final part of the process is sharing that plan with everyone on the trip - boys and adults. See, training is showing the boys how to do something they don't really know how to do. So, for Monday, I asked the boys to let us (adults) know the plan so we could be ready to leave. They came up with a plan and said we needed to be packed and ready to leave by 9:30 AM. We adults were there by the canoes with our gear loaded at 9:30. The boys took a little longer breaking camp, and were ready by 9:50. They learned they need to be more efficient in breaking camp and delegating duties. Train them, then let them do it. That is called leadership. Kudu, Having officer elections every six months is a good plan. It doesn't mean good PLs are tossed out of office. I have on PL who has been elected for 3 consecutive terms. The elections do give the boys the opportunity to change PLs if they want, and also let a leader who may be getting burned out take a break. If a boy has a sport season or something coming up that would prevent them from filling a POR, they can plan around that with the elections. I'll repeat - the elections do not mean the PL can't run again. If the boys in the patrol like what he is doing, they will re-elect him.

Barry, The time management and planning is an issue we are working on, with some success. On our last outing, I asked the PLs to come up with an agenda similar to the one you drew up for the next day. We talked about how far we wanted to canoe, and backed up from there. It took a little while, but they finally figured out everyone needed to be up at 7:00 AM, with breakfast completed and heading to the canoes by 8:15 if we were going to make our destination. They did a pretty good job of estimating where we would be for lunch, etc. Each day they got a little better, and quicker, at drawing up the plan. They also did a pretty good job of hitting the schedule, usually only 15 - 20 minutes late at the most. Now, if I can just get more than one boy per patrol to actually wear a watch... :-) The patrols do compete frequently on skills-based competitions, and they love winning and hate losing. This is probably the single most important activity for building patrol spirit. And as you mentioned, it is the quickest way to get the new Scouts up to speed on the skills. Mafaking, I don't know if it is that difficult to instill patrol method, or if the lessons have just been lost to time. I bust on Kudu from time to time, mainly because of his deragatory tone, but I will give him credit for turning me onto the 3rd edition of the SM HB. I have attended WB and staffed it twice, but I have learned much more about Patrol Method from reading these two volumes. Some of the material is a little dated (it's only 70 years old) but I find the techniques for working with the boys to be very effective. Another interesting story about some of the classic (old) Scouting materials - I picked up a 1952 copy of Boy Scout Games recently. I showed it to my son and some of the other Scouts. I didn't think I was going to get it back. They love the games described in that book! Understand, my son is an XBox fanatic, so I was more than a little surprised to see their intense interest in this book. They have introduced some of these games to the Troop, and they are very popular. I believe traditional Scouting still works very well, when given an honest chance.

Speaking of Paul Ehrlich... this, recently from George Will: Speaking of experts, in 1980 Paul Ehrlich, a Stanford scientist and environmental Cassandra who predicted calamitous food shortages by 1990, accepted a bet with economist Julian Simon. When Ehrlich predicted the imminent exhaustion of many nonrenewable natural resources, Simon challenged him: Pick a "basket" of any five such commodities, and I will wager that in a decade the price of the basket will decline, indicating decreased scarcity. Ehrlich picked five metals chrome, copper, nickel, tin and tungsten that he predicted would become more expensive. Not only did the price of the basket decline, the price of all five declined. An expert Ehrlich consulted in picking the five was John Holdren, who today is President Obama's science adviser. Credentialed intellectuals, too actually, especially illustrate Montaigne's axiom: "Nothing is so firmly believed as what we least know." http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/will021509.php3

Lisa, A couple more pieces of wisdom from Green Bar Bill that might help you: "the Patrol Method is not ONE method in which Scouting can be carried on. It is the ONLY method." And the two-fold secret for success is simple: I. Make the Patrol the unit ALWAYS, in and out, through thick and thin, for better and worse, in victory and defeat, in games and contests, at meetings, on hikes, and in camp. II. Train your boy leaders for their positions, place the responsibility of leadership on them and let them exercise it. Only as a Scoutmaster acts on this principle does he understand--and use--the Patrol Method. ---and--- ARE THE PATROLS PATROLS? If a Scoutmaster should feel that he fails in having success with the Patrol Method, let him ask himself a few pertinent questions, instead of looking elsewhere for a place to throw the blame. "Do I always think of my Patrols in terms of the leaders? Do I always transmit announcements and information to the Scouts through the Patrol Leaders? "Do I always answer the Scouts questions about routine details by saying, Ask you Patrol Leader; he knows! instead of giving them the answer myself, thus doing my part to develop in them a certain amount of respect for those leaders, to whom they have to look for vital facts and guidance? "Do I keep asking the Patrol Leaders for specific pieces of information about their boys, such as advancement, progress, home conditions, finances? "Do I stick these alleged leaders right out in front at every opportunity where they get a feeling of leadership? "Do I commend them publicly whenever they show signs of taking responsibility, and do I always refrain from criticizing them before their group? "When something goes wrong in one of those Patrols during a Troop meeting, say a little matter of discipline, do I jump on the boys themselves, or do I first call the Patrol Leader aside and point out the situation to him, making him realize that it is his responsibility to handle it?" Those are some of the questions a Scoutmaster may ask himself. If his answer to most of them is "Yes!" then he is truly a leader of boy leaders. But not only thathe is using the Patrol Method in his Troop!

Kudu, I've read thru the 3rd edition, and I can't find where GBB even mentions a Patrol QM in the text. What am I missing? You either missed it or are just ignoring it, but in another thread you said "Scout Spirit requirements, Scoutmaster Conferences, and Boards of Review are designed to keep a Boy Scout Troop adult-run. They are a flat rejection of Baden-Powell." All three of these are in the holy grail of Scouting (3rd Edition, SM Handbook). Are you saying Green Bar Bill's SM HB is a flat-out rejection of Baden-Powell??

Lisa, I quote from Baden-Powell: "Patrols should be kept intact under all circumstances." I don't know if that will help you, but it is from the man! As for food planning, we budget the following way: Breakfast - $2 Lunch - $3 Dinner - $5 Two breakfasts, a lunch and a dinner for two would run $24, pretty close to your number. We find the boys can eat pretty well within these limits. If there were only 2 boys in a patrol going on a trip, I would much rather have them struggle together as a team than to throw them in with another patrol. Mixing them messes with the dynamics of both patrols. We aren't there yet, but imagine a Troop full of patrols that were as ardent about their patrol identity as Wood Badgers are. That is the way I remember it being in our Troop, back in the dark ages when I was a Scout. We had so many patrol competitions and contests that we had a ton of patrol loyalty, just like being on a sports team.

OK, I get how to play your game. Come July, our two patrols will decide to realign themselves into age-based patrols. The older patrol will go to Northern Tier. Come early August, the boys will decide to realign themselves the way they were in June. We will send a patrol to NT, even though they register as a Crew. There, I think I got it.

Yes, OGE, and add in the fact that Stosh's patrols are age-stratified, so the couple of older boys in the patrol aren't going to get to go until the younger boys reach the age requirement. What about Jambo? If a patrol has members who aren't old enough to go or can't afford it, no one in the patrol goes? For our young Troop, we have 2 patrols. Each patrol has an almost equal mix of 7th graders and 6th graders. There is no way either of those patrols can go to Northern Tier - half the members are too young. So the older boys from both patrols are going as a Crew. I have no problem with this format, for very special trips. OTOH, I have seen Troops that constantly formed ad hoc "temporary patrols" for regular campouts because the patrols didn't have enough boys attending. I disagree with this philosophy. We want patrol spirit and identity as fierce as that of Scouters who have attended WB. I don't see how that can be developed in a setting where boys are constantly shifted from one group or patrol to the next.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

Barry, It was because of comments like that why I started the thread on Patrol Method According to Green Bar Bill. I'll quote him again. "The Patrol Method does not imply that the Patrols be let loose and permitted to run each in its own direction independent of the others. On the contrary, unless it promotes the coordination and cooperation of the Patrols--for the good of the common denominator, the Troop--the Patrol Method fails." "Every Patrol has its obligation toward and its share in THE LARGER LIFE OF THE TROOP. A Patrol could never have the truest kind of Patrol spirit unless is also had, in a very active way, genuine Troop spirit, pride in the Troop as a whole, eagerness to help the Troop make a good showing in whatever it undertakes, devotion to Troop traditions, Troop ideals, and especially to the Troop's leaders." "The Patrols are the working units in Scouting, while the Troop organization provides supervision and coordination, and establishes loyalty and opportunities for service. In other words, a Troop is NOT divided into Patrols. A TROOP IS THE SUM TOTAL OF ITS PATROLS." Green Bar Bill In the future for our Troop, I think we are looking toward working with the concept of Crew Trips for special outings that have limited space. This would be in contrast to Troop outings where the Patrol Method is normal SOP. For instance, the Okefenokee trip we just went on had a limit of 25 persons on Mixon's Hammock. The other trail routes, which involve overnighting on small wooden platforms, are limited to 20 people - and 20 would be pushing it, given the small size of some of those platforms. Our Troop had no problem with the restriction this year, but probably will next year. Cumberland Island, another local favorite, would be a difficult trip for a large Troop. So, for one or maybe two trips a year, we may work with a Crew format, similar to the HA programs. I just don't want to let this grow so big that we forget what Scouting is about - Patrol Method outdoor activities. If the Crew philosophy starts to crowd out Patrol Method, then you really just end up with a camping club, not a Boy Scout program. As you may know, Green Bar Bill termed the older Scouts as Senior Scouts, and had programs set up for them. Some Senior Scouts were even more defined as Explorer Patrols or Explorer Troops. This was the foundation for today's Venture Patrol. We don't have any Scouts that would fit the description of a Senior Scout, so we don't have the issue of coming up with a program to keep older boys involved - yet. So, I have a little time to try to crack that nut, and I'm thinking the Crew trip format might help in that endeavor.

When young men graduate from high school or college, and you ask them who their favorite teachers/professors were, they almost invariably mention someone who challenged them, made them reach deeper and discover something about themselves. They never say "Oh, that would be Mr. Smith, because he made it easy for me." Your story certainly reinforces that point. Thanks for sharing.

Neilup writes: 1) Agree with it or not, there is no "performance" requirement for the Position of Responsibility. If the boy is in the job for the required period of time, he meets the requirement. The SM is not permitted to put in a "training" requirement, particularly retroactively." and "As far as Den Chief goes, the requirement is to "serve actively 4 months in one or more positions of responaibility." There is no training requirement and clarifications from National have made it clear that there is no performance requirement. There is no requirement to "perform the duties of the position."" I'm not sure where you got this interpretation, but I feel that any Troop that just lets a boy sit in a position for 4 months with no performance requirement has done a huge disservice to the Scout. From scouting.org "unit leaders must ensure that he is fulfilling the obligations of his assigned leadership position. If he is not, then they should remove the Scout from that position." How would anyone be able to judge if a Scout was fulfilling his obligations if he didn't have a standard, or performance requirement to measure against? If the Den Chief never met with a den, he never fulfilled his obligations. I would never let my son receive credit for being a Den Chief over the summer if there weren't any meetings. If one of our Scouts wanted to argue this point, I would have a serious SM conference about being trustworthy and how he felt he had "served actively." Wearing a patch is not serving. Troops have the ability to set requirements for SPL (see SM HB, pg. 13). I know of several Troops that set requirements for other PORs.

Eamonn, Could it also be the OA set the expectation of the uniform? And the Troop set another? That is what it sounds like to me, so your son was just following the expectations set. I wouldn't ever punish a boy for not being in uniform by not allowing him to participate in a function. I do think that is going too far. We find that peer pressure works great for our Troop. No threats, just expectations - a huge difference. Coming back from the Okefenokee Swamp yesterday, just as we were about to leave the parking lot (after spending 3 nights out at Mixon's Hammock) I noticed 3 Scouts not wearing uniform pants. I called their PL over and asked him (in front of these 3) why they weren't in proper uniform for the trip home. He looked to them and they came up with several excuses, none of which were valid. I told the PL that when I was a Scout, if that happened, my SM would wait for the Troop to unload the gear, the boys to get their uniforms on, and the equipment reloaded before we left. I told the PL I would give him a pass this one time, but not to expect it again. We were in public, and I expected them to look like Scouts. This expectation applies to the adults as well, and we were all in correct complete uniform. This may seem petty to some, but it is part of the bigger picture. It is part of following group instructions and being prepared. If the boys can't or won't follow these instructions, what about when it comes to a more serious issue, like bringing a water bottle or first aid kit or survival kit? It is part of being a team, making sure you are prepared so that you don't become a liability. Eamonn, what if every boy in a Troop decided they didn't want to wear the uniform, ever. As you say, they can do that. How is the uniform method being used in that Troop? To be a method, it has to be applied. There has to be a process, a plan, a system, a procedure. If no uniform is accepted, then I don't see how the method is being employed.

I don't see the number of adults on the trip being nearly as big a problem as with the way they behaved. If the adults knew their position on this trip (under the leadership of the boys) then there wouldn't have been a problem. From the information provided, it sounds like there wasn't a written agenda, as in (example) (See Backpacking MB pg. 78): 7:00 AM Reveille 8:30 AM Break camp, hit trail 12:00 Lunch at Certain Spot 12:45 Back on trail 4:30 Reach overnight location 6:00 Supper 10:00 Lights Out The boys should create this agenda and present it to the SM. If he agrees, he lets the adults going know that this is the plan. If they can't physically make it, don't go. The adults can't alter the plan unless a health or safety issue arises. It sounds like the boys and the adults were on different plans, kind of like a band playing from different sheets of music - it doesn't work. The boys plan, the adults follow. Everyone learns and enjoys the hike. Adults camp away from the boys. Most of these details are in the Trek Safely procedures. In addition, we have the lead group take a "catch-up" break every 30 minutes (see Hiking MB, pages 41 - 42). If someone in the back twists an ankle, or worse, the group isn't spread out over 5 miles of trail. This is part of being courteous, as in the 5th point of the Scout Law. If the adults are so far behind that they aren't going to be able to keep to the plan, the adults aren't being courteous - and this needs to be pointed out to them. Lisa - as far as changing the culture, I wouldn't bet money on it. You need a new group of adults working with the VP who understands the program. They should view these VP meetings just as they do a PLC meeting - the adults are only there to answer questions and veto any plan that isn't safe, or are simply impossible. The SM should discuss the produced plan with the PL and ask probing questions about parts that aren't realistic. During the meetings, the members of the VP should be courteous to the adults and stick to a meeting agenda, and not waste a lot of time socializing. Set a time limit for the meeting, and they get the work done.

Eamonn, I don't know if your "I'm going to whack you because you let the Patrol down!" was directed to me, but it appears to be. For the record, none of our Scouts have ever "whacked" anyone for not being in uniform. They do ask them why they aren't in uniform and let them know they are letting the patrol down. That is building patrol spirit. We have even had some Scouts bring an extra belt to meetings because one of their patrol members was constantly forgetting his. If that isn't patrol spirit, I don't know what is. A Troop has every right to set expectations. If a boy doesn't want to wear the uniform, he is welcome to be in Scouting, just not in our Troop. If a Scout showed up for a BOR and started cussing like a sailor, what would you do? Would you just ignore it, or would you try to correct his behaviour? What if he was constantly cussing and picking fights in meetings and on campouts? What if it got so bad that Scouts were leaving because of it? Would you kick him out and make him miss everything the BSA has to offer? There aren't any regulations against cussing that I'm aware of, but most Troops won't tolerate it. How can that be enforced? Is that any different than uniforming? If a Troop has a correct uniforming policy and one boy refuses to follow it, how is that boy being loyal or helpful or courteous or obedient? As a Scouter, you have an obligation to promote the wearing of the correct complete uniform (see Official BSA Policy and Insignia Guide). Requiring the Scout to wear the correct complete uniform to BORs and SM conferences or any suitable Scouting event would fall under this obligation.

Our Troop has a quarterly Honor Patrol competition, where points are earned for uniforming, attendance and advancement. The Scouts in the patrols put the pressure on to be in complete uniform (Scout pants, shirt, belt, socks). As SM, I don't have to worry about it, other than making sure I'm in complete uniform at all Scout events.

Traditionally, this used to be around the end of National Boy Scout Week, which was the week that covered February 8 and 12. Belated Happy Birthday to the BSA (Feb. 8).

Thanks, OGE. I just wanted to get my admonishment over with early today. As with most cases, we are only hearing one side of the story. Some of the conclusions reached here with limited information are pretty amazing. The SM is in charge of advancement in the Troop. If he feels SeaGull99's son isn't ready to advance, I would have to defer to him. I wouldn't handle the situation as this SM appears to be doing, but it is his call. Kudu won't care for this WB 21st Century lesson, but what are the first three rules of conflict resolution? 1. Involvement 2. Involvement 3. Involvement If it were my son, I would advise him to approach the SM after a Troop meeting and have a talk. I would advise my son to ask the SM if he is upset with him, if has done something wrong. To tell the SM that he feels like he is being treated as if he has done something wrong. If so, what can he do to make things right. Going over the SM's head will likely make things worse, in the long run. Finally, if the SM is as bad as SeaGull says (scolding the boys in front of the Troop), I would find another Troop.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)