BrentAllen

Lisa, Not sure who you are talking about, but if it is a private citizen, they have the freedom of speech. How is that different from what I posted? I pointed out that our elected officials were making it official government business to investigate and hold hearings about Bush's speech. They were on our dime while doing it - that's the big difference. It was just a political witch hunt being funded by taxpayer dollars. The funny thing was the GAO shot them down.

AP: Obama tells students each has something to offer "Yet this speech came with a dose of controversy, as several conservative organizations and many concerned parents warned Obama was trying to sell his political agenda. That concern was caused in part by an accompanying administration lesson plan encouraging students to "help the president," which the White House later revised. (Education Secretary Arne) Duncan acknowledged Tuesday that some of the prepared guidance for school officials included a suggestion that students could compose essays stating how they could help support Obama an idea the education secretary acknowledged was wrongheaded." Good thing us conservatives raised our objections, so the administration wouldn't do anything wrongheaded.

jblake writes: "If we are canoeing they can get their own canoe and stay in the general area to observe. The only exception to this whole process is when a non-swimmer is required to have their parent in the canoe with them. They are then required, per BSA rules." I didn't realize they had changed the G2SS. When was it changed? The online version still shows the previous text: 3. Swimming Ability A person who has not been classified as a "swimmer" may ride as a passenger in a rowboat or motorboat with an adult swimmer, or in a canoe, raft, or sailboat with an adult who is trained as a lifeguard or a lifesaver by a recognized agency. In all other circumstances, the person must be a swimmer to participate in an activity afloat.

Uh.... No. Actually, I posted that so we could see a difference. Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen any Republicans calling for congressional hearings or investigations on Obama's speech. I do find the difference in reporting from The Washington Post of the two events very interesting. One was using the students as props, the other is there to inspire them. Hmmmm....

Yep. Headline from the Washington Post, with quotes from Gephardt & Rep. William Ford. Bush gave the speech in 1991. Democrats held hearings and investigations.

Headlines and opinions about President's speech at school: "The White House is turning a junior high classroom into a television studio and its students into props," "The Department of Education should not be producing paid political advertising for the president, it should be helping us to produce smarter students," "And the president should be doing more about education than saying, 'Lights, camera, action.'" "As the chairman of the committee charged with the authorization and implementation of education programs, I am very much interested in the justification, rationale for giving the White House scarce education funds to produce a media event."

A member number is not required to register with MyScouting or to take the training. You can register as a non-member. As for our Troop, I just tell the parents they have to complete the training before they can attend. No training, no attend. We haven't had any problems getting parents to take the courses. We also require all of our parents who want to be MB Counselors to go through MB Counselor training (conducted at the Troop level) and complete YP.

Obama's speech is now up on the White House page. Looks ok to me. http://www.whitehouse.gov/MediaResources/PreparedSchoolRemarks/

I don't mind having parents come along, as it is a good time to educate them about the program. First, they must be YP and Haz. Weather trained. If we are going swimming, they must be Safe Swim trained. If we are going boating, Safety Afloat. Once there, the only thing I usually say to them is to stay out of the patrol areas and while you are on the trip, and Johnny isn't your son, he is a Scout in this Troop. We haven't had any problems, mainly due to the "regulars" showing the new adults what to do. As SM, having new parents along gives me a great opportunity to learn more about the family and their son, from the parent's perspective. The more I know about the boys, the better job I can do.

I like this guy's ideas. http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/fdemartini/2009/09/06/why-can%e2%80%99t-conservative-sign-onto-the-democrat%e2%80%99s-plan/ To summarize, get rid of the public option, regulate the insurance industry to promote competition & drive down prices, exclude public funding for abortion, exclude public funding for illegal immigrants (other than emergency care), make it revenue neutral, provide more tax benefits for companies that offer insurance plans & individuals, and work on tort reform. He says it much better than me.

Sorry to disagree, Lisa, but that is just the attitude that has put this country in such a mess, IMHO. We treat our elected officials (not just prez, but also reps and senators) like rock stars, celebrities and heroes, when the truth is they are just citizens like the rest of us, and they work for us. Due to their superiority perception, they now have unbelievable benefits, which we all pay for. And when politicians are spending hundreds of millions of dollars for the opportunity to work for us, something has gone terribly wrong. The power they wield has turned to corruption. They expect to get paid back for all that money they spent getting elected. They forget who works for who, and expect to get compensated, in ways other than their salaries, for just doing their job, to represent their constituents. It's time the tables were turned, and I think that is about to happen. In the interest of full disclosure, I would have considered in an honor to meet some of our past presidents - Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt, to name a few. That would be due to the things they accomplished in their lives, not just because they were elected president. As for the speech to the kids, I'm not in favor of it. Our schools will allow parents to opt out. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with my daughter. I'm not worried about my son, he can tell BS when he sees it (yes, even from me). The White House is supposed to post the text of Obama's speech tomorrow, so parents can read it beforehand. If all he wants to talk about is working hard and staying in school, I have no problem with it. The problem I do have is the White House has already admitted they were wrong with the lessons plans they provided, and have scaled them back. Asking kids to write letters to themselves about how they can help Obama, instead of asking how they can help their country, is just wrong. It smells of third-world and communist dictators building up themselves, teaching children they are to serve the person, to be loyal to that person. If he gets into health care or global warming or any other political topics, I'll opt her out. We'll see tomorrow. Hopefully it will just be about education.

If you look at the Mission Statement and Aims, you won't see anything about leadership. If you look at the Oath, Law, Motto and Slogan, you won't see the word leadership. Leadership development is one of the 8 methods. You are correct, leadership as a deliverable is not a stated goal of the program. We certainly spend a lot of time trying to teach it, though. I understand your point. I just don't know if changing the questions in a BOR as you mention will achieve what you are after. I think Personal Management MB might be a better venue, maybe adding a requirement dealing with planning and conducting a weekend camping trip. Throw in all the finances, reservations, transportation, etc. Maybe require it to be earned by Life, so they have learned the skills before starting Eagle.

packsaddle writes: What constitutes a 'miracle'? How do I know one if I experience it? How do I distinguish it from 'magic'? Check this out. I consider this a miracle. J Mac. Maybe you have a perfectly good explanation for what happened that night. My explanation - sometimes, God likes to show off.

disagree. Exactly which questions would show a program is adult-run? As for the second set of questions, they might work for a PL or SPL, but how do they apply to, say, your librarian, historian, chaplain's aid, bugler, instructor, etc.? Am I missing something?

Smithgall, That sounds like a great trip! We go on a lot of family trips, mostly driving. We've been out to Glacier, Yellowstone, Mt. Rushmore, some other places. People are shocked when I tell them we drive, but we get to see so many different things along the way. That being said, we are flying to Yosemite next summer. With only two weeks for the trip, we'd burn one just getting there and back. When the kids started getting old enough to travel beyond going to Disney, we started looking at all the places we wanted to go. Then, look at how many years you have before your kids graduate high school and head off to college. You really don't have that many years to squeeze in all those trips before the kids dis-own you. Make those trips while you can, I don't think you will ever regret them. My Scoutmaster's wife passed away recently (she was in her 70's, fighting cancer), and their daughter spoke at the service. She smiled as she talked about the month-long trip they took when they were kids, going out west in a motorhome. You can't buy those memories with any amount of money. Your son will remember that trip for the rest of his life.

No, it doesn't take trained leaders to take a Troop to Summer Camp. I don't know that I would let my son go on a trip without trained and experienced leaders attending - summer camp or otherwise. Parents wouldn't let their sons go to a school with untrained teachers, but some have no problem with letting their sons disappear into the woods for a week or a weekend with untrained and inexperienced leaders. Makes no sense to me. As SM, I see it as my job and obigation to go on the trips. I haven't missed on yet, and don't plan on it for the next 12 months. When the PLC held the planning conference, I asked them not to schedule a trip on one weekend, in October. I was volunteered to co-chair a council event, but other than that, I'm pretty much available. The PLC had no problem with the request. We need some Scouts to help with the event, so some will help out. The PLs questioned their patrols for the events and trips they wanted to do. The PLs printed out schedules for school, band, church, athletic teams, etc. and brought them to the meeting. I printed out the council calendar and brought it. The boys came up with the trips and put them on the calendar, checking the other calendars for conflicts. They added COHs and officer elections. They decided which trips would be appropriate to invite Webelos IIs to attend. Compared to last year, they did a very good job and things went pretty smoothly. The Mellow Mushroom pizza helped, I think.

I find it interesting that we have one thread over in adult training, where the discussion revolves around finding SMs with enough outdoor experience and training to take Scouts into the woods. Then we have this thread, where CCs should be able to find 10 different adults with the experience and training to take their Troop's 5 patrols on separate camping trips each month. Stosh, Does this stuff you talk about ever actually happen in your Troop, or is it all just going to happen some day? Did you actually have older boys go on a HA trip while the younger boys went to camp? Do you have a single patrol go on a separate trip from the rest of the Troop? I would like to hear real life experiences. From the BSA program, the PLC is made up of representatives from the patrols - the PLs. The PLC isn't some autonimous body that just dictates to the Troop.

Buffalo, I mainly work with the PLs to develope goals. This can be hard for them, at their age (< 13). I start by asking them what the picture of success would be for their patrol (this is done during TLT). They are getting better, after hearing this once or twice before. We talk about problems the patrols have at Troop meetings and campouts - getting everyone to cooperate, to pull their load, to know how to camp. So, if we know what the problems are, what would the picture of success be? They usually picture their patrol functioning smoothly, everyone doing their jobs, helping each other, getting meals and clean-up done on time. Next, I ask - how do we get there? Many of the things they talk about in their picture of success are related to advancement. A FC Scout is going to have more skills and knowledge than a TF. So, maybe some of the goals for the patrol need to revolve around advancement. Maybe a goal is to get all the patrol members to FC. This is where I would like for them to end up, as that goal is something that is achievable and quantifiable. Plus, it helps define the job of the PL a little more clearly. The PL will do a better job of making sure the Scouts in his patrol don't miss out on advancement opportunities, like selecting the patrol camp site, or planning and cooking a meal over an open fire. The PL starts to put these things together, and sees if he helps his Scouts advance and learn skills, his job will be easier in the long run.

Sounds like you are "boy led" to me. I guess I'm just a little surprised by how everyone gets so hung up on "boy led." Between "boy led" and "patrol method" I would put much more weight on "patrol method." You can have a Troop that is boy led but doesn't follow the patrol method, but I don't think you can have a Troop that is patrol method that isn't boy led. Focus on patrol method and boy led will naturally follow. Plus, your COR will probably be much more comfortable with the term, even though there is no actual difference. You could have some real fun with your COR - "COR, you'll be happy to hear we are doing away with boy led. We are now just going to be a patrol method Troop."

Lisa, Tough situation. In my short tenure as SM, I haven't had anything remotely related come up. But I'll offer how I think I would handle it. I would probably start with the topic that Scouting has the idea that to be the best kind of citizen, one has to believe in a higher power, that we serve a higher authority. Hopefully I would be able to explain that in a way he would understand. If that was successful, I would talk about faith. Not about a particular religion, but just about what faith is (as opposed to being able to prove something, as in scientifically). I was taught that faith is like a muscle, and needs to be developed and built up over time. That most of us have times of doubt in our faith. The BSA isn't in the business of kicking boys out for having doubts about their faith. That's not what we are about. This is, however, different from a situation where someone emphatically denies there is a god or higher power. That person would be an atheist, and the BSA does not allow atheists to become members. That is BSA policy. Hopefully, he would see the difference between the situations and see that we aren't being hypocritical.

At Northern Tier, we just used PolarPure or chlorine. No filters. Looking at the CDC web site http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/drinking/travel/backcountry_water_treatment.html, I see that iodine or chlorine (PolarPure): is not effective in killing Cryptosporidium; has a low to moderate effectiveness in killing Giardia; has a high effectiveness in killing bacteria. Chlorine dioxide (KlearWater): has a low to moderate effectiveness in killing Cryptosporidium; has a high effectiveness in killing Giardia; has a high effectiveness in killing bacteria; Filtration: has a high effectiveness in removing Cryptosporidium when using an absolute less than or equal to 1 micron filter (NSF Standard 53 or 58 rated "cyst reduction / removal" filter); has a high effectiveness in removing Giardia when using an absolute less than or equal to 1 micron filter (NSF Standard 53 or 58 rated "cyst reduction / removal" filter); has a moderate effectiveness in removing bacteria when using an absolute less than or equal to 0.3 micron filter. None of us got sick at NT. I didn't mind the taste of the PolarPure. I will probably start using some chemical treatment with my Katadyn Hiker Pro filter (.3 micron). Anyone using the KlearWater product? From their web site: Q. How quickly does KlearWater work? A. KlearWater is fast. KlearWater's Chlorine Dioxide formula acts within a few minutes to eliminate most common bacteria (such as E-Coli), and viruses. For "tough" pathogens, such as Giardia and Cryptosporidium a longer treatment time (15-30min.) is recommended. That is about the same time for PolarPure.

OneHour, We aren't to that age group yet, so I can't offer any suggestions from experience. That being said, I would suggest trying to find more challenging activities for the older Scouts. My guess is most 15 - 17 year olds aren't going to be interested in working with the younger boys, so what to do with them? Instead of trying to make them be officers and run the program (if they really don't want that), use them as an example to keep the younger boys in the Troop, by letting them do some really exciting stuff (which they hopefully will plan for themselves). High Adventure is one option. Taking Wilderness First Aid is another - maybe also volunteering to be a "victim" in the course. Have some EMTs come in and go over some advanced first aid, just with the older boys. Learn search and rescue. SCUBA. Ask them what they want to do and try to provide a program just for them. That will probably require one or two ASMs focused only on the older boy program. Ideally, these older boys would be running the Troop program. I'm guessing once these boys have been PL, QM, ASPL, SPL it is going to be hard to keep them excited about doing those jobs again. And with 20 of these boys, you would have too many cooks in the kitchen. It looks to me like you have two choices - 1. try to force them to hold PORs and run the program for the younger boys, which they don't want to do, so you lose them, or 2. develop a program for them that is exciting and challenging, and will keep them active in Scouts. If you go with the latter, you will at least have them around to hopefully help out from time to time. Once they have acquired some advanced skills, you can request they teach them to the Troop, as Instructors. My guess is they might be interested in showing off these advanced skills from time to time. We had a slightly similar problem, with our whitewater rafting. Our older boys (13 year olds) had been down the Nantahala 4 or 5 times, and were bored with it. This past weekend we went up to see Unto These Hills (great show!) and go rafting on Sunday. I enticed the older boys to go by asking them if they wanted to be the guides - now they were hooked. 3 of the boys guided their rafts (each had an adult in the boat) and had a great experience. They were nervous, excited and challenged. I later heard one of the boys describing the experience to the outfitter, and asking about becoming a river guide. An activity that had been boring was now very exciting. Maybe the same can be done with other activities. Green Bar Bill had a chapter in the SM HB (3rd edition) on Senior Scouts, "The Senior Scout in the Troop": "All of the activities mentioned in the previous Chapters are capable of holding the older boy, provided they are carefully planned and well executed. Wherever possible, all efforts should be aimed toward keeping older Scouts interested in the regular program of the Troop. These older fellows represent a very important investment to the Scoutmaster. They have been trained in the leadership and Scoutcraft and consequently can be used in leadership and training of younger Scouts. Nevertheless, it will be found that the boy when he reaches Senior Scout status and grows into young manhood desires added features, "Senior Scout Activities," which he feels are more definitely planned for him. This does not mean that he is growing away from Scouting, but rather that he wants it in a more advanced form. It should be definitely understood that Senior Scouting Activities are largely advanced - or grown-up - Scouting. As already mentioned (in Chapter 16) the main program changes which may be found necessary to hold the older boy are constituted by 1. More rugged hiking and camping (wilderness adventuring). 2. Extended responsibilities. 3. Increased social activities. 4. Varied emphasis of the Merit Badge Program." He goes into each of those areas in greater detail. There are also chapters on "The Explorer Patrol in the Troop" (now called Venture Patrols), "The Sea Scout Patrol in the Troop" and "Other Senior Scouting Activities." While some of the material is dated (late 1930's), most of it is still very applicable.

In our council WB courses, participants do camp in their tents and do go on an overnighter away from the main camp site - carrying all their gear backpacks. The only part of the courses I've been on that were conducted inside were some of the meals the first weekend, in the dining hall. For the second weekend, the participants cooked and ate their meals at their patrol sites - on tables, under tarps. I'm not sure where all this "indoors course" comes from. Other than a couple of meals, all of ours is in the outdoors.

Why would a PL need to be FC? Because he needs to be able to teach those skills to his Patrol. That used to be the way leadership was taught, it was a skills-based system. From Green Bar Bill: He is the Leader of his Patrol. As such, he leads his Patrol by his initiative and personal example, in Scout Spirit as well as in Scoutcraft knowledge, establishing the morale of the Patrol on such a plane that the Scout Oath and Law will be realized in action. Finding the Patrol Leaders Intelligence and Scoutcraft Knowledge. A Patrol Leader should have the brains and push to set the pace in advancing in Scouting. If he is outdistanced by his Scouts, he is in grave danger of losing their respect. SM HB, 3rd Edition.

Buffalo, We are just about to the point where we can put in some qualifications to run for SPL or PL. This is where I would like for us to end up: SPL: 1. First Class or above 2. Attended NYLT 3. Served at least one term as PL PL: 1. First Class or above Since we aren't fully "there" yet, we will probably go with the following: SPL: 1. First Class or above 2. Attended NYLT PL: 1. Second Class or above John-in-KC - I think the SM should have some vision about where he would like to see the qualifications set, so he can mentor and coach. With a young Troop, they probably don't have much of an opinion on the matter. Making some suggestions and providing the reason behind them will help the boys understand the reasons for the qualifications. BTW, Green Bar Bill stated the candidates for SPL should be FC or higher, and have served 26 weeks as PL. Those requirements were actually part of the By-Laws.