BrentAllen

Dean, I was thinking the same thing, but then I read the parents came home, heard voices from their son's room and busted in to find the pair in bed, in the act. They called 911 and detained her until the police arrived (her car was in the driveway). Now, even if the ghost of Johnny Cochran returns to get her an Innocent verdict, I think the council is still going to feel the same way - they want no part of her in the program.

scoutldr, How would you explain the growth of our Troop? I have that very text in a presentation I give to all Webelos parents who visit us, and I read it out loud. I discuss it with the Webelos during a SM conference. I make sure all new members understand our stance. 6 to 26 Scouts in two years. I would hardly call that "dwindling down to nothing." That future major-league pitcher - how much slack does his coach cut him to miss practice and games? If you want to make Varsity, you don't miss any games or practices - yet, they don't see membership dwindling. You want to make the highest rank in Scouting? Just show up went you feel like it. Hmmm. Does that make any sense? I would argue that Troops lose far more boys due to boredom and lack of program focus than they do because of vigorous attendance and participation requirements. Imagine trying to play on a baseball team where only half the boys showed up for practice or games. How much fun would that be, when you can't really learn and play the game? When the same thing happens in a patrol, they never get beyond the Forming and Storming, which can be extremely frustrating, and no fun at all. No fun = No Patrol Spirit = no Scouts.

I've posted it many times on this page, borrowed from Green Bar Bill, who wrote it back in 1937: "The real price of membership in this Troop will be unfailing regular attendance at its meetings and outings, and steady progress in all the things that make a Scout "Prepared." If we put our own time into the activities of this Troop, we shall certainly expect you to do your part with equal faithfulness. At Troop 494, Scouting is a way of life, not just an activity." If I had to write a specific definition, I would use 70% attendance at meetings and campouts for the previous 6 months to earn the next rank. If you are holding a POR, the percentage would be higher, at 83% (5/6).

"I'm imagining that this could get especially testy during the final six months for Eagle, when a Scout may be approaching 18 and have tons of other stuff going on, and not be all that excited about camping out with a bunch of 11 year-olds." So, if he isn't participating with the Troop, why is he a Scout? As a Scout who is about to earn Eagle, shouldn't he be setting a good example by being very active? Instead, he is setting a terrible example - when you are one of the older boys, you don't have to participate, or "be active" to earn Eagle. If he doesn't have time to be a Scout, how does he have time to be Eagle? It appears many Troops have adopted the idea that you can actually earn Eagle while not actually being a Scout. Amazing.

kittle, Green Bar Bill said it the best - start small, and let your program grow as your success grows. Start with the right kind of boys - keep your eye focused on quality, not quantity. Build a strong nucleus of boys that will influence the others who join, in the values and traditions you want to establish. Have a strong vision for the Troop and stick to it. Don't compromise your vision just to add more members. Run a quality program, and the numbers will be there over time. Most importantly, ask God for direction, wisdom and patience. Ask Him to bless your new Troop.

Honor is probably the most difficult virtue to uphold because it requires that one first be honest with oneself. If you can overlook or live with your own dishonor, then it's a simple matter to think that the rest of the world can also.

bilgerat, The best poly long u/w I have found is at wickers.com. I wear their mid-weight stuff most of the time, but when it gets down in the 20's and I'm going to be pretty stationary, I go with the Expedition weight. Without getting too personal, I also wear their boxers daily, and it is the most comfortable I have ever worn. Even after 5 years of wear, they look just as good as the day I bought them. Drawback? It isn't cheap. Good news is they now offer seconds in their Outlet section. I just bought some long u/w for my son that are seconds, and I can't find anything wrong with them. Midweight top seconds are $14 and bottoms are the same, to give you an idea on price. I don't think I will ever have to buy long u/w again, if it continues to hold up so well.

DWS, I think claiming you are an athiest and homosexual, which is what Jersey stated, is a lot different than "not being sure" or "avoiding acting on feelings." pack, No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws. Every Scout should have religion. There is no religious side to the Movement. The whole of it is based on religion, that is, on the realization and service of God. Better not invite me to your funeral, if you are wearing your uniform. I always carry my trusty Swiss Army knife. :-)

"...and I don't see a reason for them to be excluded ..." Yeah, that whole "On my honor,... do my duty to God...and morally straight." thing is just a bunch of words, right? I mean, nobody takes it seriously, right? The most important thing is that those athiest and gay Scouts got the nice pretty award pinned on their uniform, so they can feel good about themselves. But, if the award turns out to mean nothing, and is nothing more than a pretty medal, then I wonder why it would make them feel good about themselves? Kinda reminds me about a certain president and a certain prize, but at least he didn't have to lie to himself in order to receive it.

fgoodwin, I did "look it up." The SM HB states "He may be assigned to a member of the troop committee to help him with his work." Question - if a Troop is small, only one patrol, and doesn't have a Scribe, do they have no advancement, since they won't have anyone to record it?(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

LsStuff, The swastika was an Indian (as in India) symbol for good luck, before it was hijacked by the Nazis. Rudyard Kipling used the symbol as part of his signature on books he wrote about Scouting, prior to the mid-1930's. I have a 1926 edition of "Land and Sea Tales for Scouts and Scout Masters" which has his signature in a circle, with the swastika inside the circle, right above his name. Any interest I would have in wearing such a knot would be related to Kipling's involvement with Scouting - and maybe to show how things can get out of hand when Scouters decide to start wearing unapproved and inappropriate knots.

Beavah, You need to try it before you criticize it. There are many functions that flow through. For instance, when we log in an Activity, the program keeps track of how many events each Scout participates in, and will fill in that requirement when they have reached the number. As was mentioned, if you have several boys complete the same requirements on a camping trip, you can go into Group Credit and check one box for all of them. The data entry is actually very easy. Plus, it keeps up with all addresses, phone numbers, email addresses. As I mentioned, our Troop web page is synced up with Troopmaster, so any Scout can go into the web page and see what requirements have been completed towards the next rank, and which need to be completed. They can also see all merit badges earned and dates, as well as all contact information for anyone in the Troop. Other features: record dates for Health and Medical forms, and I can generate a very easy report to see if any are out of date. Nights camped is recorded through the Activities, so I can easily see if a Scout has the number of nights for Camping MB. You have to record that information somewhere, so why not do it with a few key strokes? Generally, the only MB partials I enter are from Summer Camp, since our Council doesn't issue Blue cards. I'm not a big data entry type, so if this program wasn't extremely easy to use, I wouldn't be using it.

Exactly - when to act like a Boy Scout, and when not to. Because that is all they are really doing - acting. Which is a huge difference from "being."

We went camping in the snow this weekend, which is pretty rare here in Georgia. Well, actually we were right up on the TN/NC border to be exact. A fair amount of snow on the ground, which made for some great horseback riding through the woods. The temperature dropped down below 20 during the night, which is also pretty unusual for us. The boys loved it! Yeah, Beavah, I've adopted the phrase "there is no bad weather - only hot weather, cold weather, dry weather and wet weather." I'll have to add "interesting weather" to the list.

Advancement in the patrol can certainly be tied back to Patrol Method, and is a leadership issue for the PL. During our training, I ask the PLs to come up with a vision of success for their patrol. What would a successful patrol look like, and how would that patrol be better than the one they currently have. The new PLs will struggle with this at the beginning, but after some discussion, we usually work around to the problems patrols experience on outings - not very skilled at cooking, slow in setting up camp, very slow in breaking camp, not efficient in camp clean-up, disorganized, etc... If they don't come to the realization on their own, I will ask "how many of these problems would you still have if every Scout in your patrol was a First Class Scout?" The PLs will soon see that a big part of their vision for success will involve getting their patrol members trained in the T-FC skills, which leads to them all being FC Scouts. So, yes, the Patrol Leader should be working with his Scouts on moving up the advancement trail, at least to FC. We use both the books and Troopmaster. For our boys to be considered in uniform for the Honor Patrol competition, they must have their Scout book with them (as well as be in complete, correct uniform). During the patrol meeting, a PL that is on top of the ball will look at the boys' Scout books and see what they need to work on, and see if there will be opportunities during the upcoming campout. Does this happen all the time, without some reminding? No, not in our Troop, but I try to get the SPL to give them gentle reminders at appropriate times. I can't imagine being SM without Troopmaster. We record all activities and attendance, including Troop meetings and service projects. Rank information exports straight into our Troop web page, so individuals, PLs and all Troop leaders can see where each boy is in working on their next rank. TM also helps me keep up with the status of each award - earned, reported to council, presented to the Scout. It also keeps track of our MB counselors, partial MBs, nights camped, miles hiked or canoed, and a million other things. We just have 26 Scouts; I can't imagine working with an even larger Troop without the program.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

You can call me old-fashioned every day of the year, and I will always consider it a compliment. To me, it is plainly obvious that one of the biggest problems we have in society today is the absence of strong dads in families. 40% of our children are being born out of wedlock. We have a large number of single-parent families, with mom as the head of household. Many of our boys do not have a good strong adult male role model in their lives, which is something I think Scouting can provide. IMO, if you add girls to the mix, you are going to greatly diminish this benefit of the program. I'm reading a good book, "Better Dads, Stronger Sons - How Fathers Can Guide Boys to Become Men of Character" by Rick Johnson. I think some of the message ties in pretty well with Scouting.

The BSA just calls it the "official uniform." If trying to differentiate it from the normal Scout shirt, maybe a "COH uniform" or "Ceremony uniform." Those terms might also include the MB Sash and dress/leather shoes.

President Lincoln made Thanksgiving an official US holiday: Proclamation of Thanksgiving Washington, D.C. October 3, 1863 This is the proclamation which set the precedent for America's national day of Thanksgiving. During his administration, President Lincoln issued many orders like this. For example, on November 28, 1861, he ordered government departments closed for a local day of thanksgiving. Sarah Josepha Hale, a prominent magazine editor, wrote a letter to Lincoln on 28, 1863, urging him to have the "day of our annual Thanksgiving made a National and fixed Union Festival." She wrote, "You may have observed that, for some years past, there has been an increasing interest felt in our land to have the Thanksgiving held on the same day, in all the States; it now needs National recognition and authoritive fixation, only, to become permanently, an American custom and institution." The document below sets apart the last Thursday of November "as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise." According to an April 1, 1864, letter from John Nicolay, one of President Lincoln's secretaries, this document was written by Secretary of State William Seward, and the original was in his handwriting. On October 3, 1863, fellow Cabinet member Gideon Welles recorded in his diary that he complimented Seward on his work. A year later the manuscript was sold to benefit Union troops. By the President of the United States of America. A Proclamation. The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequaled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle or the ship; the axe has enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the consiousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom. No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and one voice by the whole American People. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to His tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union. In testimony whereof, I have hereunto set my hand and caused the Seal of the United States to be affixed. Done at the City of Washington, this Third day of October, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-three, and of the Independence of the Unites States the Eighty-eighth. By the President: Abraham Lincoln William H. Seward, Secretary of State

BadenP, Thanks for the compliment. I do think the 1937 SM HB was the best one ever written, and we have lost a lot of what made Scouting great. Funny, I saw in another thread where you said the greatest Scouter you worked with as a DE was a 75 year-old, with 50 years of experience in Scouting. I'm sure he wasn't a "backward thinking dinosaur era" Scouter, right?

Beavah, I am aware of the issues you mention, I consider them very valid points. My goal is to keep the PL as the most important position, with the others in support. How to do this? The PLC (not the JLC) will plan and run the Troop - deciding what trips we go on, what we do at meetings. This may not be readily apparent to the boys at this time, but will be learned as we go along. Right now, we have 26 Scouts in 3 full patrols of 8, with an SPL and the TG/QM. The SPL and PLs are the "power" positions in the Troop, doing the planning. As SM, I treat the PLs as the leaders of the Troop. The SPL and TG/QM are treated more as my assistants in supporting the PLs. It is a fine line, which I hope we can establish clearly for the boys to see. Yes, the JLC will hopefully have some "cool" factor, where the boys will want to join it. My goal is not to have the JLC be the most sought after group (that would be the PLC), but will be the group to keep the older boys interested in the Troop and active. A 15 year-old Scout who has never run for PL or never put in the effort to gain the confidence of his patrol mates to elect him, is going to stay in the patrol. If he does want to move into the JLC with his peers, he will see the PL position as the stepping stone. I think that motivation also works, though the main goal should be to want to serve as PL. I think the best way to describe my vision of the JLC is the way GBB used the JASMs, at least as described in the 3rd Edition SM HB. Our oldest boys aren't 16 yet, but they have the experience of many 16 year olds. Our 5 oldest boys have all served as either SPL or PL (most still are), have all attended NYLT and have gone on a HA trip (NT). They have anywhere from 52 - 69 nights camping, and are either First Class or Star rank. They have all attended 3 weeks of Summer Camp. This is one of those issues that is hard to noodle out. On one hand, if a Scout becomes PL when he is 13 and stays PL for the next 3 years, the Troop won't have many boys who ever serve as PL. I would never tell a Scout he can't run for PL again - as long as he wants to, that is fine. I just feel once the Scout has served as PL (ours are serving for at least 2 terms, more like 3 or 4 currently), and is one of the older boys in the patrol, it is probably time to get him out of there and let him try some new responsibilities. It is that age-old problem of keeping the older boys interested, and letting them feel like it is THEIR Troop, that they have the ownership. I don't see how an older Scout will get that sense of ownership if he stays in the patrol, now underneath a younger, less-experienced PL. I could well be wrong on this, and we may have to change the program as we mature as a Troop. Our thoughts on this type of program may also come from the fact that we started with a group of six 11 year-olds who have carried the leadership roles while young. In a mature Troop, these boys wouldn't have been PL until they were older. Now that we have gotten a little older, all of our PLs are 13 - 14. The 11 year-olds are having to wait to get a chance to hold those positions, which is good, IMO. jblake, I see the PL as the most important job in the Troop, but not the highest ranking. The difference in the two might not be readily apparent, but I will save that for another thread. GBB divided Troop officers into the following groups, which I find interesting: Commissioned Troop Scouters - SM, ASM Warrant Troop Leaders - SPL, JASM Patrol Officers - PL, APL Other Troop Officers - Scribe, QM, Bugler JASMs were Instructors, Contest Leader, Outdoor Activities Director, Game Leader. Could also be Scribe, QM, Bugler(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

I've had many discussions with many leaders about poor uniforming. After going through all the excuses, it always boils down to one thing - fear. Fear of losing boys. Fear of being considered "un-cool" for setting a high expectation. I choose not to build my vision for the Troop on fear. When we have Webelos visit, I do try to scare some of them away to other Troops. I want boys in our Troop who really want to be Scouts. We talk about the uniform, and I suggest that if they or their son has a problem with wearing it completely and correctly, they find another Troop to join. We are interested in quality, not quantity. We had a 7th-grade boy transfer in from another Troop a few weeks ago. He never wore his uniform at the other Troop, he had outgrown it. They didn't expect it, and he never wore it. He went on his first camping trip with us this past weekend, and he was in complete uniform, and proud of it. Same Scout, two different environments. He has told me several times he really likes our Troop. COs and Troops do not have the authority to change the uniform. It is set by national, as is stated in the Insignia Guide. Insignia Guide Official Policy Personal commitment, pg. 1 "The leaders of Scouting - both volunteer and professional - promote the wearing of the correct complete uniform on all suitable occasions." SMT224, The program is supposed to be for the boys. While I like seeing our adults in uniform, and it is good for us to set a good example, at the end of the day, the program is for the boys.

Beavah, I agree with most of what you say, but the only problem I see with the older boys staying in the PL position for a long time is they get burned out, and the younger boys never get the chance to grow into leaders. That being said, I do believe the PL is the most important position in the Troop. As BP said, the patrol is the character school for the individual. We had a situation back in Sept. where one of our older boys, who had been PL since he joined Boy Scouts in March, 2007 (five 6-month terms as PL), ran for SPL and lost. I think one of the reasons he lost was the boys in his patrol didn't want him to leave, and they voted against him. This boy decided not to run for PL again, either because of sour grapes or he was tired of the same position, which is what he claimed. The patrol elected another boy PL, who was one year younger. I felt if I left the older boy in that patrol, the new PL would never have a chance to lead - the boys would always turn to older boy for his approval. I discussed the issue with the SPL and we decided to offer the older boy the position of TG/QM/INSTR. He gladly accepted, and things are working out, as we all move up the learning curve. After much consideration and discussion with experienced leaders, we are working on forming a JLC with the older boys who have served as PL. This will be our SPL, ASPL, QM, Scribe, TGs, Instructors and others, if we ever get that big. Their job is to be resources for the PLs to call on, and to handle some of the non-patrol work that adults some times end up doing (QM work, for example). The plan is to only let boys who have served as PL move up into the JLC, which will hopefully encourage the older boys in a patrol to want to run for PL, and work to earn the respect of the members of the patrol so they will elect them. This may have to be modified as we go, but I certainly don't want the older boy counter-culture clique you mention. I also strongly agree with the special treatment for the PLC/JLC. Give them the responsibility and work of running the Troop, but also some reward, as you mentioned, for carrying the load.

I wouldn't be around to keep correcting you on all your many mistakes. Someone else would get stuck with the dirty job. I'm sure you are still looking for the "separation of church and state" clause in the Constitution. Question - will you be observing the national religious holiday tomorrow, or will you be working, as a protest to the obvious mixing of church and state?

Uh... BadenP... emb021 was quoting Eagledad, it wasn't his own statement. If you read his post again, you will see he says he is NOT that familiar with Campfire. Try reading more carefully before pulling the trigger. To answer the original post, I would find something else to do. I'm not interested in being SM for a co-ed Troop. I have a son and a daughter. They get plenty of interaction with the opposite sex throughout the year at school, church, everywhere else. Boy Scouts should be for the boys.

This is the form Eagle92 mentioned: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34405.pdf If that isn't being used, and MB Counselors are just turning in the Adult Application and can then teach any MB - what a SNAFU. MBCs are supposed to be approved for each MB they teach.