BrentAllen

TCD, We run our district EBOR the same as a unit - two adults from his unit, plus a member from district. We conduct them in a central location, once a month, to help with everyone's schedules. Yes, these adults on the board know the candidate thru Scouting. You miss the point of the reference letters: "Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life. List the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf." We want to see how people outside of Scouting see him. Do they see him living the Oath and Law? Letters from religious leaders, school teachers, neighbors - all from people outside of Scouting who see the candidate often - what do they think?

prof, That's not very likely to happen, as the Scout chooses who will provide the references. I guess someone who felt the boy shouldn't earn the award because of some incident could submit a letter, but I've never heard of that happening.

Ed, BadenP doesn't seem to have much use for them. By the way, BadenP, it is 5, not 3.

There is no way I would let that type of conversation go on at one of our functions. Guns and ammo, no problem, I may even be leading that one. But the other things mentioned, no way. When we started our Troop, there were some people who didn't want us to succeed (take boys away from their Troop). They were telling parents that our Baptist Church wouldn't allow Jewish Scouts and families to join the Troop. This was patently false, and I took great offense (I am a member of the church). In our small Troop of 25, we have a couple of Jewish families and a couple of Hindu. Respecting each other's religions is a major lesson in Scouting. I would not allow any type of conversation or actions that made our Scouts or their families feel unwelcome. We are probably 50% conservative, 25% moderate, 25% liberal. I don't discourage political discussion, but I also don't encourage it much, either. We usually have plenty of other things to talk about.

SMEagle, I would suggest you get a copy of the Advancement Committee Policy & Procedures and go over the 12 Steps From Life to Eagle. The candidate isn't supposed to ever have those letters. "The candidates should not be involved personally in transmitting any correspondence between people listed as references and the council service center or advancement committee." pg. 31. "Reference checks that are forwarded with the application are confidential, and their contents are not to be disclosed to any person who is not a member of the board of review." pg. 32. "Immediately after the board of review and after the application has been appropriately signed, the application, the service project report, references, and a properly completed Advancement Report are returned to the council service center." "The Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook and references are retained by council. The Eagle Scout Service Project Workbook may be returned to the Scout after council approval." Pg. 32 The reference letters are not returned to the candidate. The people that wrote them could give copies to the candidate, if they wanted to, but the ones we receive are never shown to the candidate. If anyone is arguing that references aren't important, hopefully all the language above will show the BSA certainly feels they are.

BadenP, We just try to stick to the information provided in the ACP&P: "The board of review should take approximately 30 minutes." pg. 30, Eagle Scout Boards of Review If we have a need to run a little longer, we will. So, how long does your average EBOR run?

SMEagle, Are you saying the candidate collected the letters and brought them to his EBOR himself? If letters aren't included, the council should be contacting the references listed. This process is made much easier if the candidate requests the letters and they are included with the application.

On the application. "The board of review will expect to see a letter from each person whose name is listed on your application." From the Atlanta Area Council Life to Eagle Guidebook. Edited to add - they can submit more if they wish. We require the 5 listed, with the employer being on optional 6th. They can't use the employer instead of one of the other 5.(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

BadenP, I'm amazed that you can judge up to 7 years of a young man's life in just a 30 minute interview. More power to you. For the rest of us, I find the letters very useful. They help to see how the young man is viewed outside of Scouting, from different perspectives. I conducted an EBOR last night and we had letters from his religious leader and high school band director, which were very revealing. The information provided in the letters helps us to ask more meaningful questions than just "What was your favorite merit badge." In our council, we do require the letters. We feel they are important.

Wow. I always thought that Scouts holding PORs of either Senior Patrol LEADER, Asst. Senior Patrol LEADER, or Patrol LEADER had to show leadership.

Two Scouts are ready for Eagle. SM of Scout A turns in his application, along with letters of reference, on second Monday of the month. Council approves on Friday, Scout has his EBOR on Sunday (we conduct district EBORs the second Sunday of the month). SM of Scout B turns in his application, with just the names of references. Council has to contact references, with their choice of doing so by mail. The earliest he will have his EBOR is by the second Sunday of the next month, at least 4 weeks later. If timing isn't important, I guess he can just turn in the names. If he wants to be helpful, he will do his best to get those letters in early. No need to play legal games with the requirements.

Eamonn, I think your attitude about SMs being infallible needs some further contemplation. You stated in the other thread that if a CC questioned your judgement as SM on a POR, you would resign. Now, you are stating you would have problems failing to qualify an Eagle candidate at his EBOR when you know he hasn't met the requirements. What in the world is a BOR for? Is it just a rubber stamp for the SM? Making tough decisions is part of leadership. Being between a rock and a hard place is where all the character a Scout has learned should pay off. If someone in the district doesn't ever do their part in the BOR (make sure the work has been learned and completed) and ask questions to reveal the failings you mentioned, nothing is ever going to change with that unit. I'll ask another question: Is it the lad's fault that the district has allowed this charade to go on for so long, resulting in the lad being denied the chance to really learn leadership and responsibility, to be given the promise of Scouting?

They may not be required, but they are strongly recommended. It makes the EBOR go much smoother if we have them, so any SM worth his salt will work with the candidate to make sure they are in. From The 12 Steps From Life To Eagle (ACP&P): When the completed application is received at the council service center, its contents will be verified and the references contacted. The council advancement committee or its designee contacts the person listed as a reference on the Eagle Scout Rank Application either by letter, form, or telephone checklist. The council determines the method or methods to be used. The candidate should have contacted those individuals listed as references before including their names on the application. If desired by the council, the candidate may be asked to deliver a blank reference form and envelope to the listed references. The candidates should not be involved personally in transmitting any correspondence between persons listed as references and the council service center. If the initial reference letter or form is not returned to the council in a timely manner, the council advancement committee must make direct contact with the references listed on the Eagle Scout Rank Application on its own, by follow-up letter, phone contact, or other methods as it chooses. The candidate shall not be required to make a follow-up contact with the references or submit other reference names. A Scout cannot have a board of review denied or postponed because the council office or council advancement committee does not receive the reference letter forms he delivered.

I'd say he has summed up my thoughts on the issue very well. If units wait until Eagle to really judge Scout Spirit, then they get the mess they deserve. pack - there is your answer, from a 16 year old Life Scout.

"The BOR is a review of the Scout's performance." No, it is much more a review of the Scout's experience, than of his performance. It IS a review of the SM's performance, as he is in charge of the program, and advancement. If Scouts aren't doing the requirements, but are getting them signed off, there is a problem with the program. If the Scouts aren't planning campouts, there is a problem with the program. The job of adults concerned with advancement (mainly, the SM) is to provide the right environment. The review has three purposes - to make sure the work has been learned and completed, to see how good an experience the Scout is having, to encourage the Scout to advance to the next rank. The first two items fall directly on the SM, as a measure of his performance as the leader responsible for the program.

acco, In our Troop, I (as SM) do choose who is going to be an ASM. On paper, we can say it is the COR and CC, but the reality is they aren't going to assign anyone to ASM if I don't approve. Why would they do that? We take a full year to evaluate anyone who wishes to be an ASM. If, after that year I said no, this person doesn't understand the program, doesn't work well with the boys, whatever the case may be, why would the CC and COR then assign them to the position? Maybe there is a reason, but I sure can't think of one.

Stosh, IMO, what you have is a recipe for disaster, and that is what you are getting. The Scoutmaster is in charge of advancement. The buck stops with him. From the ACP&P: The Scoutmaster maintains a list of those qualified to give tests and to pass candidates. The SM can give PLs or others the authority to sign off on rank advancement, but the SM maintains the responsibility to make sure the advancement program is run correctly. Since the SM is in charge of advancement, the BOR is certainly a review of his performance. If the boys aren't learning anything but are having requirements signed off, whose fault is that? The person in charge of advancement - the SM.

John, That is one of the reasons we ended up forming our Troop - the other one shut down for the summer. I didn't ask that question when we visited, because I didn't even think that was a possibility. Since then, I have found there are a good number of Troops that do take a few months off. As a Scout, and now as a leader, summertime meetings are great! No school the next day, no homework to worry about. The boys aren't in a big hurry to get home, so games can run a little longer. I can meet with Scouts right after the meeting to talk about advancement issues or anything else. Sometimes we even decide to run over to Bruesters and grab some ice cream at 9:30 at night. The whole atmosphere is just more relaxed, and the Scouts are excited about Summer Camp and the High Adventure trip coming up. Stories from past Summer Camps get retold, again. These are some of the funnest meetings we have.

Knowing what I know now, when visiting a Troop, I would talk more with the Scouts in that unit. I would find a couple of their First Class or Star Scouts and ask a few indirect questions about skills from T-FC. "I was in Scouts as a kid, and I used to could tie all the knots, but can't remember them now. Can you show me how to tie a few? Bowline, sheet bend, etc.?" Also ask how many trips they go on, and which are their favorites. What do they do on those trips. What happens if they don't have enough Scouts in a patrol go - do they combine for ad hoc patrols? How often does that happen? Whatever rank they are, ask their age and how long it took them to reach that rank. What was the toughest requirement of their current rank. Ask what merit badges they have earned, and where they earned them. Put a little thought into it, and you can get a lot of information about the Troop from a short, fun conversation with a few Scouts.

message deleted(This message has been edited by BrentAllen)

For us, a training culture just means everyone goes thru training as a normal part of the process of becoming a leader in the unit. There isn't any "should I go to training?" It is "when is the next course offered." Once attending training becomes standard operating procedures, those who join the unit in the future will follow the footsteps. The next level of "training culture" would be getting leaders to attend advanced training (Wood Badge, Powder Horn, Wilderness First Aid) as standard operating procedures. How to establish a training culture? It has to come from the top, the SM and CC. If they are fully trained and believe in the benefit of training, they can grow the culture. It might take some pushing and gentle twisting of arms at first, maybe along with some financial assistance (if required). Recognize the leaders who attend the training and thank them on behalf of the Troop for the time they devoted to the course, all in the effort to help improve the program for the youth. We require all adults who go camping with us to be currently trained in YP and Weather Hazards. If we are swimming or boating, they must also be currently trained in Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat. To be an ASM, they have to go thru the full Boy Scout Leader Training program. This also helps build a training culture.

AlFansome, My hat is off to you and the Kiwanis for not only chartering all those units, but for also setting high standards. That is the way Scouting should be done. Well done! Brent Allen

You either believe profanity is right, or it is wrong. There isn't any "context" to it. It is all still in front of God. Profane literally means "outside the temple." Profane words are associated with sexuality and filth - please show me any religion that would consider using profanity as being reverent. The Bible certainly speaks against it. May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable to You, Lord, my rock and my Redeemer (Psalm 19:14). Dean, you aren't teaching them judgement - you are teaching them rationalization. They will take that lesson and use it in other areas, getting them into all kinds of trouble. You certainly aren't teaching them integrity. If they can't use that language in public, in front of their parents, or in front of their religious leader, then it is wrong. Teaching the boys that they can do things that are wrong when the adults aren't around is not teaching integrity.

Situational awarenesss, moral relativism, situational ethics... Our Youth Detention Centers are filled with youth who were raised with this kind of thinking. They don't know the difference between right and wrong. On the important issues, it is a black and white world. You are either pregnant, or you aren't. You are either under-age drinking, or you aren't. You are either doing drugs, or you aren't. Rationalizing should not be your strongest skill.

I don't recognize Scouting as it is presented in most of this thread. Hemming and hawing, jumping thru loopholes, twisting wording, legal-ezing, etc. This is not corporate America, and it's not a government agency. This is a group of parents volunteering to run a youth program in the community, where they want the local boys to get the most out of the program. I commend the Board for setting a high bar. Kenk asked where the boy failed to meet the requirements. Right here, copied from your own post: "The board should make sure that a good standard of performance has been met." In Scouting, we allow the boys to learn thru failure, providing a safety net so they don't fall too far. The Board can point out to this young man where he needs to improve, and he can grow from the experience. This is a much better outcome than passing him for a job he didn't do, where the lesson is "be an Instructor for your POR, you hardly have to do anything, it is easy!" You can blame adults or youth who are "supervisors" if you want, but this boy is going for Life - he needs to show A LOT of self-motivation. He needs to be approaching the SPL with ideas, finding ways to work with the SPLs program, instead of waiting to be spoon-fed jobs to do. Me, personally, I think that if I ever felt I had to go to the district or council to get them to force the Troop on an advancement issue, I would just find another Troop. You either trust the adults leading the program, or you don't. If you don't feel the adults are acting in the best interest of your son, he shouldn't be in that Troop.