Venividi

dfolson, When your son asks to go to the pool, ask your son if he has invited the other boy. If he hasn't, that is an opportunity for a lesson in citizenship for your son - that a scout is concerned for his fellow scouts. Gets scouts to think of others. As MB counsellor, it is not your responsibility to chase scouts to work on a MB, but it would be a scout's place to contact another scout and ask him to come along.

Potential Alternative analogies: National Ski Patrol NSP (I was a member a dozen years ago), per their web site, their role is serving the public and outdoor recreation industry by providing education and credentialing to emergency care and safety services providers. i.e., they provided education material for training ski patrollers, and material/instructions for the regions that have been established across the country to test the patrollers. After successfully passing, individuals receive their certification from NSP. NSP supports ski areas, and each ski area has requirem

the other current topics about what lisabob's son was over heard saying, people's ideas on changes for the Guide to Advancement, the differing views as to whether it is better for the boys to go with once and done or have some level of proficiency of skills, the dkurtenback's observation on a disconnect between skills needed for advancement and skills needed for sucessful outings got me to thinking of some good questions to ask at a BOR, perhaps for first class and above: BOR question 1: You've spent the last x years learning and practicing the skills needed for high adventure trips; wee

bnelon, If you want to have minimum standards for the boys in your unit, you are free to do so. The guide to advancement has paragraphs, sections, and phrases that support that. If you want to have meaningful standards, your unit can have them also, as supported by the section from the GTA that you quoted about advancement being a means to an end, not an end to itself. Yes, the GTA is self-contradictory. Which you choose is dependent on what you are trying to achieve, and which you think is more valuable. My wish for changes to the GTA is that the document would be re-wri

I'ld go for no term limits. Term limits implies positions are something boys have to do to advance. The whole advancement mindset becomes "what do I gotta do" to earn my next patch? How can it get done with as little effort as possible. That's really not what we should teach. We should be motivating the desire to do something because it helps other people, not because it is a requirement towards Eagle. Let the ones that want to hold a position and actually fulfill the duties because they feel a sense of responsibility to the patrol and/or troop, and that the rest of the boys willingl

Lisabob, Thank you for sharing. What a breath of fresh air. While adults agrue how about how to interpret requirements, the boys could hardly care less. As shared, they like it when it is theirs, and have ownership and feeling of responsibility. I note the absence of any comment about advancement. Adults seem to think that boys are motivated by getting patches as easily as possible, when in actuality, that is not what keeps boys in scouting until they age out. Thanks again for sharing.

bnelon44, I like your enthusiasm and commitment to youth, and to your boys in your unit. If you find that your preconceived notion of what is meant by "mastering the skills" is getting in the way of boys having fun, of boys safety in the wilderness, causing a lot of boys in the unit dropping out, etc., I trust that you will make appropriate adjustments for the benefit of the boys in your unit; either on your own, or in consultation with other leaders, unit commissioners, etc. I do believe you are one of those leaders of the right sort. Other unit leaders are entrusted in the s

The benefit of the term "master the skills" is that it is subjective. Just like determining scout spirit. Trust SM's of the right sort to make choices that are consistent with the aims of scouting and the goals of their CO.

Another thought - have conferences with the patrol leaders and ask them how they can aid the SPL. If they are leading their patrols well, it makes the SPL's job easier. You don't describe the current troop environment. I have seen troops where PL's don't have control of their patrols during meetings and campouts, which makes the SPL's job tougher.

Perhaps this should be in a spawned thread, as your question is specific to developing an individual that is already in the position, and not just developing boys in general to be a good SPL. Developing a good SPL takes several years. Starts with learning to be a good follower. Then willingly taking responsibility for part of a patrol's needs, wheterh formal or informal (i.e. patrol QM, grubmaster, or just helping out with younger scouts for the sole reason that he notices that they need help). Then being a den chief or PL of a patrol. And taking a turn at a POR such as troop QM or

With youth sports, the journey is the enjoyment of the game. The continued improvement of skills while building on existing skills. Being motiviated to improve by the desire to win a game, (or get a hit, or catch a fly ball). Learning to be depended upon and to depend on teammates. Learning to handle a loss by picking yourself up and spending time improving skills, and trying harder next time. In summary, many skills that will be useful in life.(This message has been edited by venividi)

Twocubdad, I think you are on the right track when you ask if it is a membership numbers thing. BSA is faced with declining numbers in an era where there are many, many choices for boys, and many have hyper-parenting parents. How does BSA stay relevant in an environment like that? How do they keep advertisers and sponsors? How do they balance the needs of the majority of their CO's? Peeling the onion - some possibilities: - an inactive or partially active member is better than a non-member. the organization can't help a boy that is not a member towards character, citizen

> How do we get the boys and parents to appreciate the journey when they are focused on the destination? Through words and actions. Implement a program where PROGRAM is the emphasis. You will attract families that share that same emphasis. Recognize boys(and adults) for real skills and achievements; for taking the journey; even if those awards and recognitions are homegrown troop awards. Be consistent. Stand up for the progam and vision; don't cave in to pressure from those whose agenda is the destination.

BadenP, I see your point, though I think that it would be the parents of the scouts that would step up and support year round camping rather than expecting that a SM will do all the work for them. A unit commissioner (or DE when a UC is not available) should be advising the committee and CO as needed, but it is still the parents of the scouts and the CO that need to provide the support needed for a year round program.

One of the former SPL's would give a short talk to the troop before elections of things the boys should consider when casting their vote. This included things such as which candidate has helped out on campouts in the past 6 months? Who pitches in to help on campouts, service projects, organizes games, etc. etc. The older boys would ask specific questions to the candidates, asking for examples of what they did in the past 6 months.

>It is not the boys fault but rather the lackluster program that most troops offer >them these days. Too many SM's would rather be sitting their fat butts on an easy >chair at home drinking beer than giving their scouts an exciting and challenging >program. ?????? I thought the boys were supposed to be planning fun and exciting programs with the support of the SM / ASM's / Troop committee to help them (the boys) make it happen. Perhaps the problem is expecting that a SM will be "giving their scouts an exciting and challenging program." Perhaps rather than expecting

astro, some random thoughts... Spend some time talking to the scouts that you think would most likely do a good job. If they are not running, ask them why not. Ask probing questions and listen. The conversation may reveal why the position is not respected. For those scouts that are being disrespectful of less "popular" candidates, schedule SM conferences with them. Ask each to reflect on how his actions are compatible with the scout law. I know that some will disagree, but you may want/need to explain that due to the scout's actions, you will not be ready to sign off on the

Beavah, I'm not so sure that the adult leaders should be considered to have messed up for the previous 3 years. Advancement is not required, and not all scouts are interested in advancement. If the troop is fine with a scout that is interested in learing topics through the merit badge program, while not expressing interest in advancement, that could very well be fine and consistent with the vision of the troop. Not pushing, pressuring, prodding or cajoling scouts to advance is consistent with BSA's position that a scout is responsible for his own advancement. When a scout e

> I don't think you will avoid all challenges. My personal view is that a program that attempts to avoid all challenges will be one of little value. And even then, you could get challenges from families that want a troop for their son that has high expectations, and the benefits that go with it.

"I don't want to do any other work beyond any actual Eagle requirements." The advancement method presents a challenge to implementation in a meaningful way. Ranks are individual awards that are supposed to be a tool in achieving the aims of character, citizenship, and fitness within the scout. When a scout is focused only on what is good for him (i.e. Eagle for me), the SM/ASM's are faced with the challenge of counselling the lad to help him towards seeing that the requirements for Eagle include doing things for his fellow scouts in his patrol and troop (i.e., scout spirit). not just fo

JMHawkins, Thanks for bringing back the need to fix advancement problems by focusing on program. Because the answer to yuor question " Who. Cares. ", is the rest of the boys in the troop care. They care a lot. It is their troop. The boys have a good understanding of those they can count on. Those that are good citizens of the troop. Those that keep the troop operating; that are there for them the majority of time. Those boys that will help whenever asked, and will offer to help even when not asked. The boys see any hypocracy if adults words don't match their actions; i.e., i

Thanks for the link, Fred. Interesting article, though I thought that scouter could have made his point without calling the viewpoint that he disagreed with "misguided". The BSA model for most of its history included mixed age patrols, so it must have at least some advantages, (or perhaps scouter thinks BSA was misguided for most of it's history :-). I will have to pull out my SM handbook, as I seem to recall that the new scout patrol was defined as a temporary patrol, with the scouts moving to regular patrols after 6 months to a year or so. But perhaps that has changed as well. M

Fred, Could you share the criteria for providing approval that you have found in your analysis? Personally, I think that if a SM doesn't take into consideration the readiness of a scout to work on a MB to get a meaningful experience out of it, then the direction for obtaining SM approval isn't worth anything. I find this supported in the Guide to Advancement, which says that everything done to advance should be designed to help the young person have an exciting and meaningful expereince. Thanks, VV

ScouterCA, As a MB counselor, I've had scouts that were interested in the topic and after meeting with them to explain requirements and teach some first aid skills, would then spend a week or two working and practicing before our next meeting. I've also had scouts that after the same type of initial meeting would come back without having done anything. Scouts' expectation was that everything would be completed duing the sessions with the MB counselor. As scouts get older, they are more likely to be part of the first group. My preference is for a group of 3 rather than a group

When I teach SM specific classes, I make a point to stress how important it is to focus on program, and to de-emphasise focus on advancement. Advancement will come naturally when you focus on delivering a fun program. When advancement becomes the focus, the fun in the program decreases. It sounds like advancement is a focus in your troop. Perhaps the scouts and parents have bought into this concept, and your program attracts those families that are looking for Eagle. Note, this is an assumption on my part, based on the following items in your post: - Getting scouts on camp outs i