Venividi

"So why is it the adults are running the show under the disguise of boy leadership?" That could be said about so many things; i.e., why are adults determining the advancement requirements? Would boys select knot tying, cooking, hiking, identifying wildlife, etc. for requirements in their troop or patrol? What if they chose to replace them with beating a given number of computer games, memorizing episodes of sponge bob, and eating 12 big macs at a single sitting at McDonalds (or any other requirement that the boys want)? Why are adults determining the aims of scouting? Why not let

"I guess none of you remember Clinton's 2000 "Cops in Schools" program" And your implication is what? You thought that the Cops in Schools program was good, so that is why you are for the NRA proposal? That one bad idea from requires unquestioning support of any similar proposal? Hutchinson's statement refers to planning and implementing a program to place armed guards in schools. He does not state that NRA will pay for those guards.

"Hmmm, which teacher is carrying concealed? Is it the principle [sic], the gym teacher, the librarian, or is is it the history teacher? " I don't think it matters. Seems that those individuals that have done these atrocities expected to be killed, or took their own lives. I therefore doubt that not knowing who might or might not be armed would be a deterrent.

Anyone that truly believes that having an armed guard or one (or more) teachers with a concealed weapon will stop or even deter a shooter, please raise your hand. I have a hard time understanding how anyone could believe NRA's recommendation could be effective. There are just too many opportunities to simply take the same actions against students without actually entering the school or stepping on school grounds. Perhaps outside recess should be banned, no outdoor sporting events allowed, and flanks of teachers at the beginning and end of the day as the students are escorted to and fro

1) SM, ASM's, CC, and Adv Chair all have to have a common vision. If vision has not been discussed among these folks recently, make this a priority. It is easy to assume that the others have the same vision that you do, but that assumption is usually wrong if it has not been discussed repeatedly and written down. 2) Communicate to the parents. Troop vision might be published on the troop's web site, most certainly should be communicated in an annual or semi-annual parents meeting. 3) Parents whose vision for their son is focused on advancement get a consistent message when talking wit

chaoman45, It depends on what your goals are. My experience with age based patrols is that the job of PL is much much harder. New scouts look up to and and are willing to take direction from an older patrol leader. His couple of years more experience than them makes him an expert in their eyes. They learn from the older scouts in their patrol, and then are ready to lead other new scouts as they come into the patrol. Younger scouts are less likely to take direction from their immediate peer - who doesn't know any more than the rest of the patrol and is not respected to the same deg

allangr, I agree with your comments. Building on Barry's insight, it makes apparent why it is counterproductive to form ad-hoc patrols on campouts by combining members of various patrols when only a few members of each patrol attend; the benefit of attending a patrol cooking summer camp rather than a dining hall camp; the benefit of real inter-patrol competitions at troop meetings, campouts, and events. It is all structured to provide an environment where the patrol storms naturally.

Each of 7 scouts likely personally knows some people younger than themselves, whether through their churches' youth groups, high school sports teams, neighbors, and as Qwazse suggests, girlfriend's younger brothers. Each of you can invite two people to come to your next activity. And the activity after that, and ... (Invite to activities, not to meetings; unless your meetings are as fun as your activties) Thing is, you just can't tell prospective members that you have great trips, you've got to let them experience them. And they won't experience them unless they are invited. Advert

Seattle Pioneer writes: I don't know about others, but I'M impressed wen I see the Eagle Scout box check on a youth application by a father! My experience was different. Back when I was a new cubmaster, I was excited when I reviewed the tiger cub applications saw a number had marked life and Eagle. To a man, all declined involvement as a tiger cub leader, even after several requests for assistance. Sometimes Eagle means that the holder was more interested in his own advancement and reward than in the team (i.e. patrol).

sthumper I think you are on the right track, though I would caution against an over-reliance on training. (I recognize that I may be inferring improperly from the frequent mention of training in your last post). As training chair, I've had many discussions with people whose solution to "whatever issue" is training. Yes, training is necessary, in context, and when the person to be trained is ready for the lesson. This has been the case for both adult and youth - if there is an issue, many people want to address it by adding it to training. However, my observations is that tra

duplicate post(This message has been edited by venividi)

Try adding interpatrol competitions that get the patrols to pull together. Give points to winning patrols in the weekly inter-patrol competitions. Points for interpatrol competitions on campouts. Points on campouts for most creative meal for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Points for first patrol to set up thier patrol campsite. Points for first patrol to break camp. ( Deduct or disallow points if cookware is not cleaned properly). Have a quarterly award and annual award for winning patrol for the quarter / year. Make the award meaningful to the boys - pizza at the COH for the winn

Spiney, 1) Lack of attendance at patrol meetings Thought to consider: Are patrol meetings really important for a reason that the scouts believe, or are they important because adult leaders say they are important? Analyze why or why not the scouts view the patrol meetings as important. What is the impact to a scout or patrol if scouts miss patrol meetings? Doesn't sound like the campout is impacted, because patrol members simply hook up with another patrol. Likely you will need to figure out a linkage between attendance at patrol meetings and things that the scouts (and perhaps parent

No rule against it, but any scoutmaster that has the best interest of the scouts in mind would send his scouts to a variety of counselors rather than to one counselor for many badges. Why look for a rule from National to back up a decision that a scoutmaster should be making? We're already awash with rules; dont need rules to make decisions at the unit level that further the aims of scouting.(This message has been edited by venividi)

thoughts - seperate the two, (backing out on their commitments and the MB work) and (Scout master role and MB counsellor role). A natural consequense of not living up to their stated committment to attend the camporee and the expected commitment to their troop would be that they are not demonstrating living to the scout law. Have conferences with them individually to listen to each boy's view of how they preceive that they are living up to the scout law when they are not supporting their troop, not supporting the new boys, and backing out on their commitments. Express your disappointm

It's good to ramble. A lot of good thoughts come out. I was thinking along the lines of alignment of advancement and patrol methods. I think of the often seen phrase used in sports: "There is no I in team". Extending to the patrol method, there is no "I" in patrol. As you say, skills development is a key in a patrol. A team or patrol works best with no "I". Teams are all about the group and the group accomplishments. The best person on a team can't win if there is no teamwork. The win is the award for performing well as a team, and is the incentive to get better as a team.

In the other thread, several people commented on the benefit (or lack thereof) of the various required MB's for advancement. it got me to thinking bigger picture, and whether the entire advancement process has a positive impact on patrol method. Requirements are done as individuals. Awards are given as individuals. Sure, there the honor patrol award is available, but do more than a few troops use it or even promote it? Is it held in as high esteem as Eagle scout? I think not. Fostering citizenship and character are to a large degree based on doing things for others; helping others; yet t

BD, See Eagle732's quote from the advancement guide. Yuor questions gave you doubt that the scout completed the requirement. As per the quote 732 posted, you do not have to accept a partial. You have sufficient reason for not accepting. so your statement that you cannot retest a signed MB requirement is not correct.

When I encountered a similar situation, I explained to the boy and his father that the scout law applied to me as well. I was expected to be trustworthy, and that when I put my signature on the card, BSA was trusting that I, to the best of my ability, believed that the requirements were completed. That I believed him that when he said that he had already demonstrated how to apply a bandage, but I needed to verify, because BSA was trusting in me as a MB counsellor. We then worked together to make sure that he learned the material, because he couldn't demonstrate at even a novice level.

> I don't want to see any boy quit, ... Why not? If it is clear to you that they do not want to do scouting, they may be wanting to be asked to leave. Don't spoil scouting experience for the boys that want to be there in order to keep a few that don't want to participate in the planned activities. > I want to take care of this before it gets to a point where I have to ask them to leave. Meet with each boy individually. Explain the expectations for continued membership, then ask if he wants continue to be part of the troop. If the answer is "no", it may be that he needs he

A WSJ article that is appropriate given the concern people have over minimal checking off of requirements for rank advancement vs. having realistic expectations. Boys need challenges. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443819404577635352783638934.html?mod=WSJ_article_comments#articleTabs%3Darticle (This message has been edited by venividi)

We all have different skills and abilities. GKlose has spent many hours on this. In an ideal world, the SM has all the abilities, and all the time in the world to deal with every situation involving each boy in the troop. And still have time for his own family. Its not an ideal world. As long as we were of common mind and in general agreement on the goals, objectives, and methods, as a SM I would welcome the help of GKlose in this manner. It is something to discuss in advance, or as soon after an ad hoc discussion with a scout on such a topic would occur. Teamwork

I'll take a stab at that answer. from my perspective - it is common to look back at "what I should have done, or what I should have said", when thinking of how we could have handled things better. I look back at one scout that I think I could have helped better by not pencil whipping the scout spirit requirement for 1st class and star. It doesn't gnaw at me, I don't think of it frequently, but it occasionally comes up when exchanging the inevitable war stories that scouters share when getting together in a social setting. Perhaps "regret" is to strong a word; though there is much to lea

Many people think that Eagle is the the goal of scouting. Should be a goal of all (o most) scouts. And many scouters come at it from a minimum requirement, got all the boxes checked, here, you get the award, mentality. Somewhere, lost in all of this "there is no bad boy, only bad leaders" mentality, we forget that scout spirit is a huge part in the list of requirements on the trail to eagle. When adults forget that, it is no wonder that scouts try to skate and claim a right to an award with minimal effort. And the unspoken message sent to all the other scouts is "you get praise an

jamis, That is a pertinent piece of information - a cycle of observation isn't realistic for you because the troop is short staffed with adults in the program area. Which spawns a question: is the committee well staffed, or is one or two people wearing all of those hats? If the latter, don't start to pick up committee duties because no one else is doing them. Think of the parents as being similar to a patrol - there should be the equivelant of a "duty roster" to divide the jobs up among all of the parents. You wouldn't require a patrol leader to do all of the work for a patrol; don