Twocubdad

Because in Boy Scouts you're not expected to take essentially the same training course every year or two? We have one committee member designates as our "Personnel Department" who handles volunteer recruiting and training. Basically he just keeps up with what's posted on the council web site and let's folks know when courses are available.

I'm not saying file a complaint to get him in trouble, but let the higher-ups know he's given it a good shot but the pack just isn't interested in another presentation. Hopefully a win-win.

Sorry, buddy. Just havin' fun!

I can't wait to show this to my 16-year-old. He'll chuck stuff out his nose laughing. He and a buddy actually wanted to do this in the 8th grade during Breast Cancer Awarness Week at their middle school. I kept waiting for a call from the principal, but their history teacher talked them off the ledge.

Oh, DUAL roles. I thought this was another thread about the adults not getting along. Hot biscuits at 20 paces or something.

The problem I have is nothing is just a cell phone anymore. We've had a no electronics policy in our troop for several years. Adults' gizmos should be used sparingly and away from the Scouts. Last year some of the older boys convinced me that they should be allowed to use their MP3 players at night in their tents to listen to music as the went to sleep. I'm thinking Ipods or knockoffs with earphones. With the urging of several committee members but without going through a whole big policy debate, we gave the older guys the okay. In classic give-'em-an-inch fashion, one of the boys brings his Iphone to use. Instead of simply listening to music, he's online surfing some very inappropriate photos and texting his girlfriend with similarly inappropriate requests for when he returned home. Needless to say, the phone was taken and turned over to his parents and the troop is back to a total no electronics policy. I didn't sign up to monitor kid's Internet use and their communications with their girlfriends. I can only imagine the bru-ha had this kid decided to share his photos with some of the new Scouts. I don't buy all the safety arguments either. Some how we've survived all these years without instant access to Dopler radar. The siren in the top of the dining hall still works. And I can live without hole-by-hole updates of how Tiger is doing (which we're much more likely to get that weather reports). Another war story: in another galaxy (i.e. an out-of-council camp)a Scout from a troop in our council had his cell phone taking pictures OUTSIDE the shower house but walked in the shower house with it. Another Scout, a little guy, saw the flash then the phone in the shower house and assumed the older Scout was taking photos of him in the shower. The little guy called his mother (on his cell phone no doubt) and told her someone had taken photos of him naked. The mom went bezerk. Called the local sheriff and had him meet her at camp. Of course there were no incriminating photos on the camera, but the mom insisted they could have been uploaded to the Internet and deleted. They finally decided to take the card out of the kid's phone and destroy it. I'm not sure how all this was resolved, but apparently someone pointed out there was no evidence anything bad had taken place and cooler heads prevailed. As a parent, I appreciate my sons having a few electron-free day. If nothing else it reminds them they can live without being plugged-in 24/7. A good friend of mine and an ASM every couple months just pack up all the GameBoys and DVDs. He feels his son will get into a cycle where he spends more and more time with these things until it's just overwhelming. So he just pulls the plug. ASM 411 -- go with your gut. I can tell you from first-hand experience throwing your cell phone in the lake can be a truely cathartic experience. And way cheaper than therapy or even medications. Go for it!

What if you sent him an email, copied to his boss either the Dir. Field Svcs. or the Scout Exec., in which you go through all the contacts he's made with . "Thank you for your call last night, and the night before and the email the day before that ...." Say you appreciate that the council's under a lot of pressure to raise money and you understand the need for the mutiple contacts. BUT .... and then lay out why you're not going to have another presentation. Hopefully that gets him off the hook with his boss and puts and end to the discussion. If they persist after that you're just gonna have to get side-ways with 'em.

I don't see a conflict between our positions, Barry. To my way of thinking, the more information everyone has the better. It is not my intent to poison the well for the kid, but his behavior was such that I could not in clear conscious let him go to another troop without making the leaders there aware of our experience. If the Scout in question seriously injures himself or another boy, does it really matter if it happens in our troop or the next? You may be right, LisaBob, the boy may be in another troop in another district by now. After my conversation with the dad, I would not be surprised he would try to keep me out of the loop. But I can't help what I don't know about. We are a good-sized suburban area with four troops within three miles of us. One of the effects of that some boys (actually parents) tend to look for greener grass when they hit a bump in the road. The SMs generally give each other the courtesy of letting the others know if one of their Scouts transfers. Usually the communication between the SMs isn't too serious -- the kid is angry he didn't get elected SPL, or I won't let him take three citizenships and communications at summer camp. I always tell a Scout wanting to transfer to our troop they should contact their old Scoutmaster and let them know what's up because I will certainly talk to him. For one, it's the courteous thing for the Scout to do. Secondly, it lets the boy know if there are skeletons in the closet, now is the tme to get them out. Overall I think it is a healthy thing and avoids the kind of dumping Scoutldr brought up. I hear what you are saying about second chances, Barry. Every Scout who has transferred to our troop has thrived and most who transferred out are doing well. One boy who had burned some bridges in our troop moved to another and is now SPL there. A lot of times it's about chemistry. A lot of times it's about a fresh start. Other times the problem is with the guy in the mirror and a new mirror isn't going to change anything. We need to give boys an opportunity to land in a troop where they can be successful. I think full disclosure only helps that process.

The idea of transferring a problem to another unit concerns me. I've never had to "fire" a parent before. A couple have had the grace to quit before it came to that. I have been in the position of dismissing a Scout from the troop. I intentionally did not bring up the idea of transferring to another troop. If a boy's behavior warrants dismissal from our unit, I'm not going to foist him on the guy down the road. In this situation, the dad asked about transferring and asked me if I would tell the other SM what had happened. Because the boy was being dismissed due to repeated, serious safety issues, I said told the dad I felt an ethical obligation to share -- as objectively as possible -- what had happened with the next SM. To my knowledge they have never joined another unit. Per policy, we sent the Scout Executive a letter explaining why we had dismissed the boy and asking that he be removed from our charter. I suppose if he ever turns up at another troop, that letter would be attached to his transfer records. There's a fine line between sharing a real concern and gossip. I think this is something you have to be very careful with.

The ECOH is a troop function, so the SPL runs it with the SM, CC and COR making the actual presentation. The presentation kit (I don't know what grade, I actually didn't know there are different ones) is provided by the council at no cost. For a reception, the troop provides a sheet cake with an Eagle emblem done by the local grocery store bakery department. And we have his name engraved on the Eagle plaque. Anything else is provided by the family. Gifts? The troop has invested 5-7 years and hundreds if not thousands of hours in this young man. Isn't that a sufficient gift? It has always seemed to me the Scout should be giving his leaders a gift. Personally, I like the scene at the end of "An Officer and a Gentleman" where all the new officers give the DI a silver dollar.

I think Gern describes the intangibles of WB pretty well. I think it's a bit like a college degree or maybe Eagle Scout. WB is an outward demonstration of a level of commitment beyond the ordinary. Like college, there are a whole bunch of folks who have earned the same bona fides through other avenues. As to the WB Snobs, I don't think it's WB that creates the snobbery. It's just more of the same good ol' boy baloney. It's an unfortunate coincidence that if you've been around long enough to be in the good ol' boy club, you've probably been around long enough to take WB too.

I think you nailed the typical attitude, LB. I remember poring over the books when I was a Scout, especially the handbook. I don't think kids do that anymore. With my own sons, I'll buy a MB book for them with the hope that it will spark an interest in the subject. Generally, I think interest in and use of merit badge books mirrors the attitude toward the badges themselves. For the MBs the boys have to go out and earn on their own, I think most have figured out that the books are pretty helpful. My guys will tell you most MB requirement are in three categories: the basic safety and first aid stuff, the stuff you have to do, and the stuff in the book you just have to spit back out. Clearly, reading the book is the shortest distance to the latter. But for the summer camp MBs they rarely ever look at the books because they know they will be spoon-fed everything they need in class. I have a few parents who are hell-bent to make sure every Scout has the book for every course they've signed up for at camp. It's a big production to put the order together and distribute the books. I know that most of the books will never get cracked at camp.(

As a unit commissioner what do you believe your role should be in this situation? (I know what I would WANT to do, too, but that wouldn't be very Scoutlike either.)

Not really outdoor books per se, but I still love browsing my original set of Foxfire Book. I bought the first one at an 8th grade book fair when my English teacher suggested it. I spent years trying to build a log cabin, a still, running around eating poke sallet and trying to convince someone else to try a few drops of warm urine to cure an earache. I really like The Nature Company Star Guide because it's sky charts are easy to use and it includes both the scientific information and the mythology behind the constellations. I have a stack of tree, plant and wildflower identification books. Probably my favorite is from the NC Forest Service because it only includes trees found in the southeast. I hate spending 20 minutes slogging through one of the massive Audubon Society guides only to realize tree or bird I've settled on is found only in the southwest Ural Mountains. I'm not familar with the Ashley book. I'll have to look it up. I have several sailing-related knot books, the best one is the Riggers Apprentice by Brian Toss. Lots of cool splices and fancy work.

I think you are confusing the few strongly-held personal opinions which have been posted here with the other writers who are discussing how the situation should be handled from a BSA policy standpoint. We had a similar situation here a few years ago. A SM clearly had a drinking problem and occasionally would show up for troop meetings with a couple under his belt. Eventually he was arrested for DWI. The troop committee was divided on the issue. Some folks felt the man deserved compassion for his problem and others saw it as a safety issue which required action. The troop almost folded over the matter and may yet. The problem was forwarded to the Scout Executive who revoked the SM membership. Eventually, the fellow went through rehab and turned himself around. A year or so later and now sober, he appealed his dismissal from Scouts with the support of some of the old troop leaders (and I'm sure letters from his counselor and doctors). Regional accepted the appeal and reinstated his membership with the restriction that he never drive Scouts anywhere. He wanted his old job as SM back but after much heated discussion, he was accepted as an ASM. All in all, I think it was a good outcome. The safety of the Scouts was the number one concern but ultimately the leader was treated fairly and with compassion and given a second chance. Unfortunately the divide this caused in the troop is still very raw and the troop may yet fold. I personally am not sure accepting him back as a unit-serving leader in the old troop was a good idea, but I'm not on that troop committee. Based on having seen that situation from a distance, I still feel getting the help of the professionals is the way to go.

We should remember that there is a distinction between leadership positions and the Positions of Responsibility required for advancement. I had a quartermaster a year or two ago who played varsity football. He he attend about half the meetings but generally almost always late, sometimes out of uniform but tried to come to Scouts after practice, if his homework load allowed. He made all the one night campouts, but when we left out on a Friday, he would come by my house on Thursday afternoon (light practice day) get the key to the Scout hut and make sure all the troop gear was pulled out and ready to go. When we returned Sunday afternoon, he was always waiting for us at the hut to help unload and stow the gear. The initiative and commitment that guys demonstrated was a whole lot more impressive than a kid whose mom hauled him to troop meetings every week. It's also an example of how a Scout can serve a Position of Responsibility without attending regularly. Some positions, QM, scribe, librarian, historian can be fulfilled working swing shift, so to speak. We need to be flexible enough the work with guys like this. (And no, I'm not saying you can do these jobs and NEVER show up, only work flexible schedules.) On the other hand, some jobs do not lend themselves to this: SPL, PL, Troop Guide, and Instructor. These jobs are leadership positions (as well as positions of responsibility) and can't be acceptably performed without being on site. Our troop's guidelines state Scouts in PoRs should be present for 70% of meetings and outings. But it is judged on an individual basis.

FScouter -- you are correct that the unit and chartered organization have the authority and responsibility to deal with this. If this situation were brought to my COR or IH, I sure hope they would quickly confirm the information and immediately dismiss the leader from the unit. But how many "How Do We Get Rid of ___________" threads have we seen where committee politics and personalities turn something like this into a bloody mess. We know the guy's wife is still involved in the pack. Is their CO involved or are they like most who think their relation with the Pack is "they meet here" and don't understand that they have the responsibility for the unit leaders? Going to the SE is a much cleaner route. I would hope most SE's have the training and professionalism to handle this in a dispassionate manner. They also have access to the criteria used evaluating the information they receive from background checks. This should be no different. Besides, if you go through the committee/CO route, you still have to notify the SE if the leader is dismissed from the unit. The SE would still go through the process to determine if the guy was prohibited from joining another unit. Why subject the unit to this process if there is an alternative?

I've got an older copy of a patch valuation guide which list the two most valuable Mission Council patches as being $20-25. Both are special issue patches, one is the 75th anniversary of Scouting (1985)and the other is the 75th anniversary of the council (1995). Others are as low as $4-5. Mission issued a total of 12 different should strips until they merged. I don't think the prices have changed much since the guide I have was published

My suggestion would be to wait until there is a big crowd of parents around, then find the ASM, shake his hand and loudly thank him for being so conscientious in doing his job. There is some disagreement over what the Guide to Safe Scouting requires in term of two-deep leadership while driving. But most will agree it's not prudent to be alone in a vehicle with a Scout other than your own. This poor guy was just trying to do his job. Then, when the SPL plays eeny-meeny to get someone to double up in the AMS's car, the poor little thing's mom gets her knickers in a knot because he's going to miss the movie in the van? And to add insult to injury, she snips that she's "not comfortable" with the ASM? He was exactly right: if you're not comfortable with your son riding with someone, why would you let him go camping with the leader for the weekend? The ASM is due an apology.

All of which is why the SE needs to handle it. It should be treated the same if the conviction showed up on a new applicant's background check. That's why he gets the big bucks. And thanks, packsaddle. I always appreciate a Mel Brooks reference. I was begining to feel a little left out with the recent flurry of sci-fi quotes.

One of our new ASM who just crossed over had placed an order months and months ago. Lo and behold, a package showed up a week or so ago. I suppose they're trying to make things up

Set attendance aside. Otherwise, how are the boys fulfilling their position of responsibility. If a Scout is a patrol leader but attending half or so of meetings and campouts, how is he carrying out his responsibilities to the patrol?

That's evil, Beav. I like it! Don't know about mutiple weeks at camp for the kid, but I know he's gone to four years. Still, that's 7-8 per week. His troop is one that goes out of council to summer camp specifically because they camp offers MBs all day long. Our camp looses a number of troops to that camp every year so we're trying to be more like them. Great. I think the drive-thru window is in the capital budget for next year.

Is there a real issue or is this just petty baloney? If there is a real issue, then it goes beyond who rides with whom. If there is a legit reason for one Scout not to ride with the ASM then no one should ride with him. We don't manage who rides where. Everyone just gets in an empty seat. Drivers are responsible for making sure everyone who starts the trip in their car finishes the trip in their car. If I don't want my son riding with Mr. Smith because I have a personal beef, then I tell my son not to get in the car with him. Or I can drive him myself. I almost prefer there is some real concern here, because my patience for petty junk is growing really thin.

DON'T WALK, RUN! We've got one coming up here shortly. I've done all I can to make sure no one in our troop finds out about it. Sort of off topic, but here's one for the books: the Personal Fitness counselor for our troop is working on the MB with a kid in his neighborhood who is in another troop. The Scout is about 14, a Star and has 30 merit badges. He was having a hard time understanding the whole blue card process. The counselor asked if his troop handled blue cards differently. The Scout said he didn't really know because HE HAD NEVER EARNED A MERIT BADGE OUTSIDE OF SUMMER CAMP! Thirty merit badges. All at summer camp. Sheesh.