blw2

This makes me think of a conversation I had while I was Cubmaster, with a lady that was starting the Daisy girl scout troop that my daughter was in. We are chartered by a catholic parish. So this leader was new to the whole game, and she was marching under the idea that only church members could join. Correct or not, I told her that I look at it as another ministry of the church.... an extension of the youth group program if you like.... and with this in mind, if we can get a non-member to attend scouts, they will bring their parents through the door, at least occasionally. That family will get exposure to the church taht they wouldn't otherwise have had. They might like what they see or who they meet through scouting and they might end up joining the church or even more coming to know Christ. (edit: even if it's not a church, you could look at "scouts" as very similar to the church in my example. That boy may have sorely needed some of the growth that is possible through scouting) So excluding someone is an opportunity lost. BUT, all that being said I'll also bet that qwazse is spot on. That boy probably would have left anyway sooner or later. and even worse, he might have injected a bad attitude that affects others in the troop. SO, in that regard, perhaps its a win. But is it a win or loss?

JTE does consider recruiting and retention, which I think is the most important consideration as a measure of how well things are functioning... most important thing for them that is.

LOL, Krampus!! yep, I totally agree, and that was my point before. I WAS that new guy and still believe that this is true - the uniform, knots, and other patches serve a good purpose but there is a point of ridiculousness with the knots, that hits someplace in between two rows of them and six, seven, eight rows,...? Even as a brand new scouter, I as you said knew intuitively that they meant the guy had been around ...but just because a guys been around, doesn't mean he's good..... and just like as you would with a bad toupe, you've gotta wonder... Not judging, just stating the impression it can give... each person I suppose has to consult the Uniform Guidelines, look at how much space they have on their shirt.... and then choose for themselves what's right.

Oh, I'll bet that one has been danced around more than just a few times. I can almost picture my soon to be 10year old boy scout, in a patrol without a flag, sitting down with his 12 or 13 year old patrol leader to get signed off on that one.... "Describe your patrol flag." "Ahhh, it's tied to the top of a big stick...it flaps in the breeze.... and the best part, it's invisible!" as they both giggle over that one, the signature goes into the book.

don't know about that.... a sports coat uniform would make him look like a know nothing office person (nothing about scoutcraft I mean) wouldn't carry much weight I think.

boy, can it be fixed? I can't answer that. Don't have any great ideas on that one. does it need to be? Yes. i think so. Well at least based on the role that it seems to me they should be filling anyway... When I was first coming up to speed as a scouter for the pack, especially as I started as Cubmaster, I actively seeked out a UC. I was hoping very much to buy a UC a cup off joe, and brainstorm a bit. I wanted to know how other units do things. Also we had some problems that I would have loved to have an experienced perception of. On top of that, our old guard didn't have effort or a mechanism to pass along the knowledge. We were just thrown into the pool. Since I can't really remember my cub experience back in the 1970's, this pack is the only one I have seen modeled. I know how our old guard did things, and I could see some weaknesses. I had been participating here I think by that point so I had some ideas, but as a new guy they weren't fully develop. Maybe they still aren't. I figured a guy like a UC would have seen several units and not just on a single visit. That person would maybe have several examples of different ways to do things. Anyway, we had a guy, and old timer I met while I was ACM once after I was in the job for a long while. He seemed like a great guy with good experience. Seemed like a scout's scouter kind of guy, not a politician napoleon general. But I was disappointed that I had not met him before. He had never searched me out. Anyway, I searched him out when becoming CM but he was in the process of retiring. As far as I know we never got another. I sure would have liked to talk over a venti grande whatever at Starbux or dunkin. I might have even bought a guy a doughnut! I could have used some advice! So yes, I think the idea of that is a good one and is sorely needed to help new scouters form having to reinvent the wheel every time!

I recently signed up for the SM specific classroom thing at our University of Scouting coming up soon, even though I have not been asked to take on any job with the troop (except MBC). This is the first year my son will be eligible for Uof Scouting, and to encourage him to attend I wanted to attend again too. But since I have been the last few years, there were few classes I found interesting, so I signed up for the SM Leader training that they are running currently. It seems like it's the most applicable course for my situation right now.... I can't say i'm really excited about sitting in a classroom all day, but hopefully it will be at least entertaining. Hopefully not the snore fest my baloo class was.

yeah, the other currently running thread about UC has me second guessing my statement about it being something to consider. Based only on that discussion, it seems that an expectation is to get knee deep into politics, maybe act as a dispute mediator, push fund raising, etc... No Thanks! If it was about helping new scouters get up to speed, brainstorming program with them for an improved unit, etc..., then I could see a glimmer of appeal.

I agree! Ha Ha. This is one of my fears. I'm pretty sure the troop my son is going to does the new scout patrol thing. So his friend that will be joining the same patrol has, well let's say "tacky taste" and a bad sense of humor. They were joking around the other day about patrol names & he was coming up with some doozies. and he's he kind of kid that will sort of take charge. and above all that, the SM is pretty good I think about letting the boys do what they want to do.... so it will likely float as long as it's not seriously bad language or such... ugh I pulled my son aside later, and encouraged him to stand up and give his input in the decision too, don't just let your friend cram it through....

we never did but I have seen WEBELOS form other units with patrol emblems... but I never knew if they were doing this, or if it was a hand-me-down shirt from a big brother and they were just too lazy to remove the patch only to resew it after they cross... & I'd guess it would make more sense with a pack of multiple dens of the same rank I do think though, that if we had done a better job of forming a patrol with the den, it might have been something the boys could get a few minutes of enjoyment brainstorming a good name over a meeting or two. Can't really say it would serve much of a purpose beyond that.... EXCEPT that it would have fit in nicely to something I tried to do. i wanted to get better "team spirit" and so I hoped to get the dens to do den flags or perhaps some form of totem, line up and come into the pack meeting in groups carrying their flags, to have their own den yells, and to take pride in their table at the pack meeting by displaying something that they have worked on during the month when appropriate. I didn't try very hard on this, not a hill to die on with what was going on, and of course I failed. On a unit level, we did and do like Stosh.... although something I tried diligently to do was change the nomenclature from WEBELOS One or WEBELOS TWO to something that seems a bit more correct in the use of the english language and more descriptive in terms of what they are... "First Year WEBELOS" and "Second year WEBELOS" (tried by setting an example, not by some formal mandate). They are only WEBELOS after all, and the whole numbering thing is only to further identify the groups) Needless to say, I failed in that attempt too.

@@tonkatim I haven't thought of that Unit Commish idea. Actually a good idea. I offered to do this more or less for our upcoming new CM, just informally. Anyway, I don't know much about what a good UC does since I've never had a good one, but I'd bet it's mostly a sounding board and advice resource for other units. Maybe attend meetings once in a long while, a few phone calls or emails now and then.... Others have suggested continuing with the pack.... which I might still do down the road, but I have to admit my heart isn't into the pack all that much right now, and besides I think they'd be better served with active parents in the key positions, or at least most of them. (the one exception would be the Tiger DL, for the right person.... but I'm not that person that would be the best fit for that. The UC seems like something for folks like me to consider.

I like qwazse's suggestion of reaching out to old scout friends. Seems like a great idea if you could pull that off. Even if you know how to contact only one....he might know how to get in touch with others. Anyway, seems like a great suggestion. I've seen analogies used many times of scouting to sports, even that the SM is like the coach. I think it makes sense in terms of parents staying off the playing field but Stosh is right, I think. It does seem to fall apart with the coach comparison. Some very significant differences. I suggested a book earlier in this thread (So Far So Good, A New Scoutmaster's Journey) I thought of another one, also a very easy, short, and quick reading. "Aids to Scoutmastership", by Baden-Powell you can find the full text of it online for free. I ordered a copy from amazon. It's very old, but it still applies I'd think.... and a third and I think very excellent resource is scoutmastercg.com ... and of course this forum I've only been a Cub Scouter (cubmaster, assistant cubmaster, and assistant DL) so far, so this isn't coming from vast troop level experience, but I have been doing a lot of reading lately and have been participating here for a while now. (these conversations are better than any I've had at our roundtables) Anyway, it just seem a good idea to get a fresh understanding of the foundations of scouting to boost your youth experience with either good reminders or good ideas of different or better ways. I sure do wish I could have known to read this stuff before I got heavily involved with the pack. I could have been a much better cub leader I think, even the focus is scouts and not cubs.

I wish I had the knowledge, patience, time, and equipment to do book binding repair. It probably wouldn't be all that difficult to deconstruct a perfect bound book and bind it much more durably or to take a spiral bound book apart, laminate and repunch the holes to reinforce, and then reassemble with a more durable coil. Is there a merit badge for that?

man, talk about calling the kettle black! Barry, you may not agree with Stosh, but look at your last post. It must have taken you twenty minutes of typing..... and it comes off like you are very agitated and that you are confident that your vision is THE way. Stosh has a lot of history with scouting and is a valuable participant here, as are you. I've got to say taht many of his points on this topic hold some sound logic and really make sense. You also bring up valid points. I think its important to remember that a lot is lost through the written word, especially when it's written off hand and quickly without much thought. Could it be that there is a misunderstanding of the intention or tone?.... or perhaps coming at it with a different paradigm? I find that a lot of people from other countries and even other regions of this country come off as very rude, but I have to remind myself that sometimes it doesn't necessarily mean they are bad people. Even personality types look at things differently and that can go a long way towards taking things in ways other than intended. Even word choices can be huge. For example, I tend to say "should" a lot but my wife always takes that like I'm ordering her and that my way is the only way. Not intended at all. I hope we can all remember the 4th point of the law

about the kids and camping. All three of my kids have camped since they were infants. The first two were tenting but what I call tailgate camping, but sadly my youngest has only done the rv thing and not really camping, but my point is that I too think they can and should be going with you. but not with the troop, and that's a rub to consider. Tough though if the wife isn't into camping. & I'd guess that if you run an active troop you'll be camping often with the troop and won't have much time for family camping. The way may pack operated, all pack events were family events, and we used to do a lot of family camping. Little kids, sisters, it was all welcome and good. So from that perspective being a scouter with the pack and helping scouting that way might seem a better fit for you in your situation. But of course that's not the need that you're filling. Anyway, I wanted to chime in with one more comment. You're getting a lot of dissenting and negative comments here in your first thread. But I really would like to encourage you to continue to participate here. Please don't get discouraged or put off. There's good folks here, lots of experience and different points of view. I find it much better than a round-table meeting for purposes of brainstorming and getting other perspectives outside of your own unit. on top of that, we will appreciate your experience and ideas in the conversations. & I have to say, I had a similar experience to @@Eagle94-A1. My wife said she supported me when I was faced with taking the cubmaster position, and she really did want to, but for a variety of reasons I ended up spending more time than I should have... mostly because our pack didn't really have a functional committee beyond the den leaders, the CC was well intentioned but disengaged, and most of the parents wouldn't step up to help. I was able to do a lot of it during the day, but it still occupied my mind and took a lot of time away from my family focus. In the end, she said she supported me, as long as I didn't let her see me doing things for scouting ... & it came to be that I couldn't brainstorm things with her very much either. Not a good situation.

agreed. It's easy to know if its a scout function... But honestly I'm not sure why it matters. You should never ideally be alone with a kid that's not your kid anyway. There should at least be other kids around if not another adult. so except for the lack of a tour permit, what's the difference really?

Good luck! I can't disagree with the others. In fact if I had it to do over again, i very likely wouldn't start my son until probably Bear or maybe WEBELOS The burnout concern is real, and I'll guess you have a lot to figure out. They are also correct about maximizing these years when your kids are young. but it seems it's a done deal in your mind, so congrats, and I wish you luck. It's good to have wife's support, but keep an eye on that... I had my wife's support when i took on Cubmaster, but I don't think she knew what it meant! You're coming from a much more rich scouting background than I had, but I do have one suggestion that comes to mind. http://scoutmastercg.com/far-good-new-scoutmasters-story/ Even though we're coming from different places, I think this book might help you.... and I think it should be a must read for every new scouter and every new scout parent. It's an easy read, and probably glosses over a lot, maybe a little too simple.... but based on what I have read and seen so far, it's great food for thought. Especially something that applies to your situation, and that is knowing the direction you want to take the troop and establishing that trust and report with the CC and committee, and establishing those expectations up front with the ASM's and parents

yeah, my son already has earned his AOL and crossover is set for Jan 24th. A bit early in my opinion, but just as well. everyone is finished and ready to be done with it already! I went ahead and ordered a book since I don't know when I'll be able to get to the scout shop. I wonder how long it will take to make it to my mailbox....

That probably was an advantage of the method, maybe one of many advantages.... but just a gut guess on my part, I'd bet your first answer "I have no idea why" was closer to the basis of the old practice. I can fully imagine that it could have been from some long ago directive by some long forgotten scout or more likely a scouter. The current boys have only seen it done this way, so surely there must be a good reason for it, right. What else is there? Regardless, This conversation reminds me of a radio interview I heard years ago. I think it was some author on a NPR station... it had that feel as I remember it anyway... So the discussion was about youth athletics and adult involvement. They covered the topic well, and it stuck with me, even though I am the antithesis of a "sports fan" It went something like this.... on one end of the spectrum, you have a neighborhood group of friends and a pick-up game of some sort in an empty lot down the road. The natural leaders quickly find their place. The followers find theirs...as do the athletic ones, and the not so athletic. They pick teams They make up the rules, and they layout the playing field. Maybe it's baseball, but since they are using a rock, or maybe a tennis ball, they modify the field and rules to compensate. Maybe it's a completely made up game not resembling any organized sports They might make special compensations for a younger player. They do all of this and adults are nowhere to be seen or heard. then, on the other end of the spectrum you'll have some organized highly competitive league with the parents touch in every aspect. The rules are inflexible. The coaches are hard driving. Parents yell and cuss at the umps. They berate coaches because their future major leaguer is sitting the bench too much... and may not get their ride into college as a result!

under this model of operation, do you remember any occasions when at the time the 6th month rolled around and the boys had the opportunity to change, that nobody or very few of them did?... or was it always a reshuffle?

good thread that warrants compilation. @@qwazse, I especially liked your sentence, " Second teach and preach tough-as-tanned-leather meekness in the face of troubles. " This is exactly something I have been trying to enforce lately with my son. Sometimes I feel like I'm struggling a bit with some situations on what to say that's positive and constructive.... It's just not appropriate to say something like "grow up", or "don't be such a baby" Anyway, I found the sad story particularly interesting from another angle that I don't think has been brought up The author wrote that he was a target of bullying since October. Three to four months isn't really all that long to me, but it sure can be for a kid. Still, I'm surprised it took him over the edge so fast.... I suspect there's a bit more to the story...

I see get what you are saying Stosh and on a micro level I agree Maybe you're right, but I'm not so sure on the macro level Something I've mentioned here a few times, but I'm struggling to say it right.... is the need for One Program sure, personalities change and different folks learn and work in different ways. Absolutly right... and it is never static and always changing in that regard but on a bigger level I feel like Scouting has one method, and that seems to be the patrol method. Something I've been trying to say for a while, I think Clarke Green said it well in his recent podcast, about "One Aim, One Method" Anyway, After having read Aids to Scoutmastership, and studying this a while now through various books and other resources, it seems that it's really rather simple. Everything happens on the patrol level a patrol is made up of a small group of friends....6-8 boys (or kids everywhere else) the patrol is led by a scout... boy led the patrol gives each boy the stage to take on responsibility and practice leadership and teamwork adults are kind of a coach, or "safety valve" but not leaders patrols hang with other patrols as a troop, to share resources a troop is ideally 4 patrols or less. but everything happens on the patrol level it uses primarily the outdoors and nature as a setting for learning and building character.... the aim of this whole game It just seems like everything else is just stuff added in under the name of improvement but only complicates things, and distracts from the aim and method. Makes things worse in the end for the individual boy. reduces what he can ultimately get out of scouting. I might have missed a bullet point or two, I wrote this off the cuff, but that's the general idea of what I'm getting at. and remember, I'm thinking of this as a macro level thing..... not that every unit on the 3rd Saturday of March should do a particular thing... just that there really seems to be one best overall method.

well, maybe not the best use of words.... but I did say "seems".... and yes, it IS a problem. The two troops I'm most familiar with do it. Yep, i did answer my own question.... I knew that and Stosh, you bring up an interesting side..... A while back I was discussing troop structure, patrols, and all of this stuff with a friend of mine who's a new scouter in my CO's troop, getting a feel for the troop that my son eventually chose to join. They had recently done their annual patrol shuffle (not sure it's annual, but something like that). I forget exactly how the discussion flowed, but when I challenged him on this concept and the possibility that this might be sort of an adult interference issue (I tried to do that nicely, see how I used possibility and might there to soften it up ), he was very fast to point out that it was/is completely the boys' decision and went on to describe a PLC meeting and how great it all was. I dropped it and didn't point out that it Might Possibly be that the boys are only doing it the way it has always been done before since it's all they really know and they probably think this is the way it's supposed to be. This troop is admittedly only a couple years out of a firm adult led style so I strongly suspect that this is the case.

you know, this military connection is interesting to me. I understand why they didn't/don't want scouting to be associated with military. I'm totally on board with that. but come on! It's only natural! What do most folks think of first when asked to name a uniformed organization? What was Baden-Powell's background? what was the foundation or purpose of his first book that sparked it all? Do we have "ranks" in the corporate world? In school? and finally, what are the uniforms styled similar to? (hint, it ain't a catholic school uniform )

@@Stosh asked some interesting questions: Do the boys really follow them, work with them, like them, want to be part of their patrol? Will turn to rather than some adult? etc. For me, that is how I measure success in their POR. Sure there is a part that measures for performance in a managerial task, but do the boys vote year after year to try and keep their SPL in office forever if necessary and will fight tooth and nail to keep their PL/APL team for their patrol? Are the boys devastated when their SPL or PL ages out? How can any of these things really gel and happen, if the patrols are regularly restructured to even out the "teams"?.... it seems that many troops will reassign patrols based on some calendar tick or another....