Trevorum

Ed, I wouldn''t vote for him either, but you are missing the point. Regardless of one''s personal politics, it is significant that a major and serious candidate for the US presidency has publically repudiated the policies of the BSA. This would have been unthinkable a generation ago, even for a fringe candidate The message is clear: to a significant proportion of the US population, BSA no longer holds the moral highground. That is truly sad.

Fred, you''re welcom3 I did not know if your engine had access to uuworld, so I thought I''d try and scoop ya''

I''m not a lawyer < ... shudder... > but my understanding is that while laws are indeed "made" by legislators, it is lawsuits that serve to clarify the gray areas. I disagree that lawyers (including judges) create social policy. However, I do think that they clarify how the policies are implemented in the real world.

Taking a page from Fred''s playbook, I thought I''d share this article. http://www.uuworld.org/news/articles/45487.shtml Navigators and SpiralScouts offer inclusive programs. By Donald E. Skinner 9.21.07 Two Sunday afternoons a month the Mojave Desert SpiralScouts Circle No. 147 takes over the building of the Unitarian Universalist Congregation of Las Vegas. Kids cluster together, working on camping badges and chattering about their latest field trip. On the other side of the country, in a New York City elementary school, young Navigators meet after school to practice wilderness skills and plan community service projects and outdoor adventures. Their leader is a Unitarian Universalist who formerly led a Boy Scout troop. SpiralScouts and Navigators USA are two alternatives that have arisen in the wake of decisions by the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) in 1999 to exclude boys and leaders who were gay or did not believe in a supreme being. The Unitarian Universalist Association parted ways with the BSA over those two issues after the BSA withdrew approval in May 1999 for a religious emblem the UUA awarded to Scouts who had earned it through a program of study in their congregations. Since that time some UUs have wanted a more inclusive youth program. SpiralScouts and Navigators are two such groups. Neither group is officially affiliated with the UUA, although UUs may lead them and participate in them. Some groups meet in UU buildings or are sponsored by individual UU congregations. Other UUs continue to participate in Boy Scout programs. SpiralScouts, begun in 2001, was organized as a youth program of the Aquarian Tabernacle Church, a Wiccan group in the state of Washington. It is now run independently of the church. SpiralScouts is directed primarily at children and youth whose families identify as Wiccan or Pagan and with Earth-centered spirituality, but it is open to anyone, says Janet Callahan, SpiralScouts International program director. Wicca is an Earth-centered religion based on pre-Christian traditions from Northern Europe. It contains references to Celtic deities, symbols, and seasonal days of celebration that reverence the Earth. Callahan says there are currently more than 80 chartered SpiralScouts circles or hearths in 20 states. A hearth is an individual family that does not have a circle nearby. She said a half-dozen circles are either affiliated with Unitarian Universalist congregations or have a UU as leader. SpiralScouts is for boys and girls ages 3 to 18. Circles are required to have both a male and female leader. The Las Vegas SpiralScouts Circle is sponsored jointly by the UU Congregation of Las Vegas and the Agave Spirit Grove, a chapter of the Covenant of Unitarian Universalist Pagans. Two of the leaders of the circle are members of both the Pagan group and the congregation. Krista Cielo-Cooney, a leader of the Las Vegas circle, said the program, which was formed there in August 2006, has 20 scouts. Most of the families are Pagan or of mixed faith. SpiralScouts is a better fit for them than either the Boy or Girl Scouts. Some of our families have been waiting forever for this to get going. Jess Baribault, a member of the UU Congregation in Milford, N.H., began looking for family-friendly Pagan activities five years ago when her son was a toddler. She found the SpiralScouts website and she started Silverling Circle No. 58 at Antrim, where she lives. Eight other families have joined. The group sometimes meets at her home, but most often it gathers for field trips, she said. Weve been to see a maple sugaring demonstration and we used that as an opportunity to talk about the gifts that trees give us and we connected it to the Spring Equinox and Ostara. Ostara is a Pagan holiday from which the term Easter is derived. The circle goes camping and members work on badges throughout the year. On October 27, 2007, the circle will hold a harvest festival along with food and clothing collections at the Peterborough UU Church in New Hampshire. I like the fact SpiralScouts is inclusive and accepting and respectful of all paths, said Baribault. Its very much in line with UU principles. And it includes girls as well as boys. Paint Branch Circle No. 164 of SpiralScouts was chartered in November 2006 in Maryland. It meets at, but is not sponsored by, Paint Branch UU Church at Adelphi. We had always liked the idea of a group for both boys and girls, said Paul Richards, a friend of the church. Unitarian Universalists dont seem to have a lot of kid-oriented organizations beyond OWL [the Our Whole Lives lifespan sexuality education curricula] and the religious education programs. As far as fun and camping, and outdoor activities, this seems like a wonderful opportunity for kids to get out and do things without the constraints of either the Boy or Girl Scouts. Richards said he was a Boy Scout for many years. That program has value, but I think that non-Christians as well as those who are gay are not as welcome. It just seems like they are excluding a lot of people. The circle is supported by a Washington, D.C.-area Pagan community, said Richards. Its something fun and educational for the children, it teaches them outdoor skills, mythology and lore, and about alternative religions, and its a way they can congregate and have fun.

Our troop handles it the same way and we rarely have a problem. How does your adult patrol come up with it''s menu and why doesn''t the $10 cover it? IMHO, $40 should be enough to pay for food for 4 adults for a campout. For example, crackerbarrel =$4; 2 breakfasts =$8, 2 lunches =$8; 1 dinner =$20; total =$40. If your menu calls for more expensive items (which is perfectly reasonable), then just collect more from each person. The bottom line is the process that works for the patrols should work for you too: develop a menu, price it, divide by the number of mouths, collect the cash, buy the food.

funscout, with respect, I understand that your religion and your politics teach you to believe certain things. That''s your right to believe any thing you want. However, religion and politics don''t belong in public schools. Science is another matter. Regardless of what your religion and politics teach, there really is no scientific disagreement on either issue.

Excellent story! Thanks for sharing, Brent. I will forward it to our new SM for his consideration as a SM minute

There''s no myth of an island city sinking beneath the waves, I know that much. But you''re right, I have heard the tsunami draw-back and wave offered as a source of the Moses/Red Sea myth. I wonder if the timing matches... Nonetheless, I would think that the second largest volcanic eruption in human history would leave more footprints in the ancient literature of the Mediterranean. (Sorry... the original thread has gone far adrift!)

Excavating through layers of ancient posts, I discovered this very early thread from the "paleolithic" era of SCOUTER.com. I had completely forgotten about Kim''s game (see above). It is always great fun! How many of you have played this? I think I will suggest it to our PLC for a possible activity on the next campout.

Pack observes, "The "great" flood of the bible is a myth ..." Along those lines, I have wonderered why the Thera explosion of ~1600 BCE, mythologized for us by Plato, never made it into the Israelite canon.

Gern said, "... without public schools, Texas would not have its alternate religion, High School Football." (sigh) As always, I''m in the minority again. Our Texas family belongs to the offshoot sect, High School Band.

For a minute there I had visions of a Scouting virtual reality - sorta like Second Life - where we would create our own avatars (all in top physical condition, of course), demonstrate 100% correct uniforming at all times, guide perfectly boy-led troops, and trek Philmont whenever we wanted. (sigh)

I''m sure this is a fairly common issue, and I seek the experience of the forum. Our council has decided to redraw district boundaries, effective January 1st. Under the new plan, one of the 3 packs from which our troop has traditional recruited will be placed in a different district from our troop. Must we now forego recruiting from this pack? If we are directed to stop recruiting from this pack by the new district, how do we respond? Thanks!

FS, I don''t think John was being discourteous at all; his reference to the dlR uniform was casual and light-hearted. I think he was being helpful to lee. By contrast, I think your reply was sorta flaming.

I would like to add that there are a number of highly controversial topics which nonetheless ARE taught in a straighforward manner because there is little to no scientific disagreement. For example, some people may squirm, but evolution and global warming are facts of life (heh, heh!) and need to be taught as such.

"You keep using that word? I do not think it means what you think it means ... " (Inigo Montoya to Vizzini) I rather think that those tens of millions of Mormons would disagree with you about the "reality" of their religion. Not to mention the US Government. And by the way, there are many people who genuinely see ALL religions as "manufactured fairy tales".

GHB said, "A real religion can be true, or false, but not made up! As I said before, a made up religion is just play-acting, in every sense I can call to mind." I disagree. Strongly. You can not deny the reality of a religion just because you do not like the way it was founded ("made-up"). Case in point: several tens of millions of LDS adherents. Not to mention Scientology.

Onehour, I dont believe that an artificially homogenous social group is healthy for young, developing minds. That smacks of "separate but equal". I realize that BSA also self-defines its own "diversity" while excluding large numbers of youth on the basis of their biology and/or religion. And thats not right either. You say, "AHG allows all kinds of legitimate diversity ..." suggesting you have some notion of "illegitimate" diversity. Presumably, you see some differences as good (hair color? blood type?) and other differences as bad (religion? gender identity?). I don't think I agree with characterizing some diversity as legitimate and others as illegitimate. You also say, "Diversity ... is a lesser-order good than ... Judeo-Christian values" Here, I am pretty sure that my Hindu and Buddhist friends would disagree with you. Not that it matters of course, because you evidently wouldn't want to associate with them in the first place. But of course it begs the questions of which "Judeo-Christian values" you mean. The ones shown by Lot when he offered his virgin daughters to the crowd? Or later, slept with them himself? Or the ones shown by Abraham when he tried to murder his son? Or the ones shown by Moses when he massacred Israelites who had decided to worship a different God? Of course, none of these. But my point is that "Judeo-Christian" values are all over the moral compass and have no natural advantage over say, Buddhism or the Wiccan Rede. I'll take diversity every time.

Fred, Absolutely! Choice is preferable to a monopoly! I'm in support of all scouting/guiding programs, including AHG and Spiral Scouts. I'm just suggesting that they be accurately described. AHG is exclusive, not "diverse".

I never fathomed the message in that Yoda-ism, "... there is no try." It seems to be the exact opposite of what we tell our Cub Scouts: "Do your best".

onehouraweekmy said, "... diversity does not mean that every group must welcome whatever beliefs exist-- that would imply the destruction of any individual identity. Diversity here means that folks who value traditional values have somewhere to turn where those values aren't denigrated." I'm glad your children are involved in a Scouting/Guiding program where they feel comfortable. That is important. However, it seems to me that you are twisting the definition of the word "diversity". Your usage suggests a situation much more akin to "uniformity". That's not necessarily a bad thing - people generally prefer to associate with others who are like themselves. However, it is not diversity, and it is misleading to describe AHG that way when the group excludes all religions except one (Christianity). AHG is an exclusive group. There's nothing wrong with that; use it as a positive promotion but don't pretend to diversity. Nonetheless, I take issue with your dire warning that association with "whatever beliefs exist" leads to "destruction of any individual identity". This is certainly not the case in BSA. Most BSA units are multi-faith, with Jews rubbing elbows with Christians and Buddhists associating with Hindus and Muslims. I have never heard of any case in which anyones individual identity has been destroyed or even damaged as a result of this healthy association. And I don't know that BSA members "denigrate" traditional values. If AHG members wish to associate only with other Christians that is certainly their right, but please don't insult the rest of us by implying you'ld be contaminated by our cooties.

I should mention that we don't know who the 100th will be, or when - we have a half dozen fellows who have completed their projects or will do so very soon.

You're absolutely right - my thought is not to infringe on the Scout's own Eagle ceremony in any way, but to have some special event for the whole troop to celebrate ...

Our troop is one of the oldest and most active in our district. As a result, we have some great traditions. And pretty soon, one of our Scouts will become the 100th Eagle in our troop. I'm thinking that's a milestone we as a troop should recognize and celebrate in some way. Does anyone have any ideas on this?

The idea of using a stave as a perpetual plaque is interesting. I've never seen that done before. I assume the eagle you mention will be sort of a finial on top of the stave? How about using an actual Eagle patch permanently affixed to the top of the stave below the finial? Our troop has a more traditional perpetual plaque with brass name plates. We are closing in on Eagle #100, perhaps early next year.I wonder if we should do something special in the troop to recognize this event? hmmm...