Trevorum

Religion is never a valid excuse for hurtful behavior.

Well, I believe that holidays should be FUN! And so I say HAPPY HALLOWEEN !

dang... gotta admit, there are times I wish Rooster was still around, just to liven things up. I can imagine his fire and brimstone take on "the Devil's day" or some such ...

We helped out on another Eagle project last weekend. A concrete slab - we mixed 80+ bags of redimix. It was fun seeing those 16 and 17 year olds working side by side with the 11 year olds. That's some real world experience - leveling, framing, rebar, mixing, pouring, finishing - that a lot of these kids would not get anywhere else.

"...let them go." And don't forget to award them the scarlet A

I am assuming that this was a mixed gender escapade, so am I being dense here? Was a BSA rule broken? They showed poor judgement to be sure, but nothing illegal, or in violation of YP or the G2SS. I think a quiet word to the involved parties would take care of it, the same as if someone was smoking cigarettes or drinking beer or gambling for money after all the scouts were asleep.

Dan, How does the Mexican "Day of the Dead' (1 November) relate to the two holidays? As far as I know, it's a nominally Christian holiday but with pre-Columbian pagan origins. The skeletons and similar imagery seem akin to our notion of Halloween, but is that a coincidence or by design?

But again, you miss the point! My argument is that nearly ALL (if not all) of our modern holidays have some religious meaning to someone. If schools were to eliminate ALL holidays that have the least twinge of a religious component, those little kids would have nothing left! Since our modern culture is derived primarily from European and Judeo-Christian roots, it is not surprising that most of our holidays have some connection to that faith tradition. But denying those little Buddhist and Islamic and Hindu tykes the joy of a secular Christmas celebration is just, well, Grinchish! (how's that for a neologism!) Santa Claus is for ALL kids! And similarly, denying those little Christian kiddies the opportunity to carve pumpkins at school is also Grinchish. imho.

Dan, you may be right about the origins of some of the modern Haloween traditions. I don't know, so I'll defer to you. However, I doubt that today anyone intends any true insult to pagans. (And yes, the one witch I have known was a hottie!)

OGE, perhaps I wasn't as explicit as I could have been. A public school recognizing Halloween is allowing kids to celebate the secular component of the holiday with jack o'lanterns and Luke Skywalker costumes and tootsie rolls. Just as recognizing Christmas is allowing kids to celebate the secular component of that holiday with Santa Claus, talking snowmen, and gaudily wrapped presents. Now if the school included the strictly religious components of either holiday (creche scenes, ancestor ceremonies), I would object.

I think most holidays have both religious and secular components. The mix between the two varies not only from holiday to holiday but from person to person for any given holiday. For example, Thanksgiving is nearly wholly secular (but is recognized from the pulpit in some faiths) while Yom Kippur is nearly wholly religious (but some people take off work that day just because they can). Similarly, one person will see Christmas and Easter as primarily religious days while his next door neigbor will celebrate them as secular holidays. In this vein, Dan celebrates Samhain as a religious day but OGE celebrates it as a secular one, while OGE celebrates Christmas as a religious day but Dan celebrates it as a secular one. Or not. Several threads ago someone expressed the opinion that non-Christians should not celebrate Christmas because they did not accept the religious origins of the holiday. This mystified me as uch as Dan suggesting that non-Pagans celebrating Halloween is creating a mockery of a religious day. In both cases, I don't think any insult is intended. Regardless of historical origins, Christians claiming ownership of modern Christmas is as silly as pagans claiming ownership of modern Halloween. Today, both holidays have a significant (perhaps primarily) secular component. Of course this just my own view; my family is neither Christian nor pagan and we've always celebrated both holidays equally.

Wow, very good question! I have no idea and won't speculate, but I'll be interested in hearing from folks in the know.

Quite right, Ed. But perhaps exclusionary membership policies may be considered to be a meme, a holdover from the 19th and eartly 20th centuries, but no longer wholly adaptive in the changed environment of the 21st. This bears further consideration, I think ...

Thinking trilobites and Italian weddings. These threads do weave and wander ... Our wedding was on horseback in Malibu, strangely foreshadowing our life here in Texas. We literally rode off into the sunset (but then we had to circle back for the reception). I've always wanted to get invited to an Italian wedding. Guess I don't have the right sort of friends.

Brent buddy, I know you're just trying to yank my chain... heh, heh. All in good fun. However I honestly don't know if you are serious about that monkey part. (You do know the answer, right?)

Los Angeles Area Council is barely done rebuilding the Arrowhead camps after the devastating fire of just several years ago. I pray they don't loose the camp a second time.

Brent, I can't speak for packsaddle of course, but you're actually quite right. My beautiful bride and I DID in fact adapt out wedding vows from the thoughts of several cultures. We both think our ceremony was much more meaningful (you may read "evolved" here) than many of the traditional ceremonies we have witnessed. As do organizations (and species), marriage vows contain a number of different elements. Some of them may be outdated and should be discarded (her: "Obey??? Hah!").

sorry, eric - we cross-posted ... that quip was for pack

but you'll allow thinking trilobites?

Well Ed, to use a biological analogy, species that do not adapt to changes in their environment become extinct. Perhaps trilobites thought they were standing firm, too.

Merlyn, you are correct. Just like not every UU is a theist or even a deist. Eric, then I think we must be in agreement. I would have no problem allowing any and all atheists be scouts. If we did, I see absolutely no change to any part of the program.

Just in case it isn't clear, the BSA already accepts people who do not believe in God (or any god). There is even a BSA approved religious award called the Sangha. The people are called Buddhists. Not believing in a god, these people are (ipso facto) atheists.

OGE, yep - EBoRs. Thanx for reminding/clarifying.

So according to the SE, gay parents are encouraged to participate with their sons at "meetings and events". This would seem to include hiking, camping, service projects, Courts of Honor, fund raisers and many other Scouting activities and events. They could even sit on Boards or Review. Very much like all other parents. They just couldn't wear a uniform. Go figure.

Dan is correct on all counts. Let me further clarify that we Unitarian Universalists do in fact have a BSA sanctioned religious award - the Living Your Religion award. This award was approved by National in 2005. Dan, I think one of the chief reasons why BSA has been so skittish about UUs is that we DON'T have a theism litmus test. There is no way of knowing whether this UU or that may be a theist, a deist, or an atheist. It's all very confusing to the BSA, who tend to like their religions predictably dogmatic. imho.