theysawyoucomin'

Gern you managed to bring the DRP into the discussion. Huzzah for you.

 

I don't excuse anybody that hurts a Scout by doing things beyond their level of knowledge and experience.

 

In fact the next accident that happens in Utah will make me sicker than the last one.

 

Outside seems to have a bit of enviro-high speed high tech snobbery to it. Many of those folks seem to be going to the outer reaches of the planet. I wonder how many subscribers have needed rescue.

 

So Annette,

Go peirce your son's tongue and stop painting me and mine with so broad a brush. I have not hurt anybody on a backpacking trip. Your son would be bored as we only to small trips to the 'Dacks. Your son conquered Alaska at 2, Grand Canyon at 4, and Green River at 6. I'm trying to get our patrol leaders to boldly venture to the local supermarket to shop for a troop trip. I've got kids whose parents won't buy them proper gear. How much leadership did your son provide on those trips. Conquering Alaska while incontinent, I'll bet you are so proud. Snobbery at it's best. The Scouts have helped millions of young men become better than they may have been. You've dragged a child on high priced getaways.

 

[expletive deleted]

 

PS. I learned an awful lot about camping in the Marine Corps, while I was defending your right to slander my 100 year old organization.

 

PPS. Could we all be better trained , Yes, but you aint' gonna do a darn thing to help us get there. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Has anybody read the article about the Boy Scout and how we hurt kids in the great outdoors?

 

"It is not the critic who counts; not the one who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. Credit belongs to the one who is actually in the arena; whose fate is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself on a worthy cause; who at the best knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement; and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat." -- Theodore Roosevelt

 

Some journalist from Arizona wrote and of course there was a reference to the 3 G's

 

 

Vote with your feet.

 

There has to be a good pack near you.

 

If you've been angry for 3 years your boy must be close to crossover. Be as critical with his Troop. Vote with your feet.

 

And as others have said get involved.

Make each of the parents go to walmart and buy their kid a box of clay birds.

 

Meet with all the boys in question and say, "Now each of you have a gross of these things. Was what you did worth a truckload of these things? Assault, and a host of other real crime. Boys take stock of what you are so upset about. Is this some carry over from a previuos incident?"

 

The kid that held the knife to anothers throat needs a vacation along with the kidnapper and the knife thrower. I get confused in reading the original post.

My Cubs used to get off the bus at the VFW Hall where we had meetings. They wore their uniform to school all day with mixed reviews.

 

The teachers loved it.

 

The second wolf meeting one of the new Cubs said, "Do you know that the girls chased me around during recess beause I had my Cub Scout shirt on?" He smiled.

Talk about playing hard to get but easy to find.

 

Once they said a boy on the bus named Nick said, "Cub Scouts SUCKS"

They were upset. I simply said , "Why don't you invite Nick to the next meeting so he can find out how really bad it DOES Suck. Because I've run every meeting we have had and I've never seen Nick here."

They thought for a minute shocked that I said SUCKS and finally replied, "Yeah, how does he know what we do here?"

 

 

Gentlemen and Ladies CONTINUE TO MARCH you are helping these kids in ways you can't imagine.

 

Pack asked "what is happening to this coutry?"

A good 50% of it is going to hell in a handbasket. I'm on a mission to save the other half and I know many of you are too.

 

 

BE STRONG

When my pack dealt with class b. com they were very good to do biz with.

 

Check out their web site there are many different designs. We narrowed it to 4 designs and had a vote at the pack meeting so the boys made the final choice

When my pack dealt with class b. com they were very good to do biz with.

 

Check out their web site there are many different designs. We narrowed it to 4 designs and had a vote at the pack meeting so the boys made the final choice

E.,

I see your point. But, on the contray where I live cold weather is a part of life. Yet for the last 4 years our unit has not sent a team to the Klondike derby. Some of the kids go out so little that they don't even own a pair of winter boots. They stand in a shoveled driveway in sneakers waiting for the school bus to come. I've been above the Arctic Circle twice and love the cold but we can't do anymore than cabin camping because kids don't own the proper gear, yet they have the latest edition of electronic game.

 

I like shooting, so I know folks at a local shooting club that does metalic silhouette. About half the unit showed up for the fun shoot. The kids had fun, but what about the other half.

 

Eammon,

I reading you posts here if the Scouts really wanted to do a winter activity that you would facilitate it some how. You are a giver. You would either gut it out or find a resource to help the boys.

 

 

In genereal I find it sickening that when called on the phone, the average 14 year old can recite from memory how to get into the evil palace on their favorite video game yet they cannot orient a map even though they are Star Scouts. And some of them have never had the necessity to orient the map because they seldom get more rugged than a camporee.

Fscouter is accurate but I would add pg48 and 49 are nothing to do with Scouting.

Lowering it to about 83% which is still much higher than my perception.

 

the swimming and water safety is good stuff this month.

 

My miscarriage of the numbers is due to the "in yo face" nature of the ads. There are 21 ads plus 48 and 49 which review electronic games and could qualify as promoting those games.

 

The review of swimming could save a Scout or somebody else. The games review leads to sloth.

 

"If I've told you once I've told you a million times don't exaggerate.

Agreed.

I've said it before nothing prepares you for good solid planning like backpacking. Real backpacking. Not a let's go for a hike and check the box.

 

I know a Scout who is a fine boy. Bright, well behaved, kind to others. Everytime the Pl asks for activities he suggust: laser tag, indoor rock gym, pool party at his house.DO YOU SEE THE PATTERN??????

 

Will be an Eagle some day as he is self driven.

 

Now some would say, "You are just looking to make it harder for him"

 

No, I wish to expose him to true self reliance.

 

He may even love backpacking, you never know. But he will never know because there is no box to check, therefore he won't do it. By the way, he is somewhat slight but he is not handicapped in any way.

 

The way the regs are written now camporees and summer camp are the roughest it gets. Camporee at the fairgrounds? forgot something? Run to the store.

Camporees are nothing but car camping.

 

I don't know about morse code, back in the day the USMC sent me to code school. I could do 14 words per minute with a pencil. Other than read thoams and jean yawkeys name at Fenway I've never use code either in or out of the 'Corps.

 

I think we give lip service to the patrol method. If a patrol leader doesn't earn the honor patrol patch during his tenure what has he done? The bugler and librarian don't lead anybody. If the instruct doesn't ever give a class or help younger Scout his POR is just words on a patch.

Yes $1 for sure.

 

$5 for no ads with video games.

 

Where the heck is LL Bean, Cabelas and Bass proshops, jann's netcraft

Remington, Ruger, mossberg and Federal

 

Nike, Fubu, wilson, rawlings.

 

The subscrirtion can never equal the costs without ads that's publishing 101, but c'mon the thing is FULL of worthless crap to buy.

 

Ed, did you and F have a scuffle someplace else that accounts for his tone?

Can we get somebody in Irving to look at a 1975 issue of Boy's Life and calc the square inches of ad space compared to today?

 

 

C'mon Pedro are we selling video games or making men here?

 

 

Somebody ought to pay my kid to read 75 ads worth of crap and one good story about Scouting

 

Not looking to dump the magazine, I want it to be better!!!!!!

 

 

 

not a staff prank but:

 

 

My Patrol was the weather patrol during the break. I got this darn near 3/4" 3'-6" diam piece of plywood and made a smiley sun out of it. the next weeeknd the new weather patrols had to carry this mildly heavy big yellow smiley sun around with them where ever they went, Also we decorated the weather patrol rainbrella with many things hanging from it.

 

At one of the morning formations our Scoutmaster (who looked like Santa) asked for a patrol leaders report, I replied "Ready and willing Santa!" with a snappy salute. mildly funny

Thank you for your responses, I would be curious to know ho many National supply sells each year.

I agree with Merlyn!!!!!!!

 

 

It's all there in the Declaration of Independence...right after the phase a long line of usurptations...or something like that.

 

It is the right, nay THE DUTY...

 

 

 

But I'd much rather use my trigger finger in the voting booth.

Go Sox!

 

As cubs we took the boys to "Ironsides" and the Aquarium and stayed at Camp Sayre.

 

The staff was friendly and everything went well.

 

Thinking about next May going to do the Freedom Trail with the Troop.

Is Sayre the closest and cheapest place to sleep outside?

Just a quick Roll call.

How many of you have Patrols in your Troop who have earned this small gold star in the past two years.

 

My Troop has no patrol that has earned this device

ooorah Doc

 

I was in 3/8 where were you?

HERE, Gunny!

 

 

 

Gunny this Scouting stuff is easy.

When you set up in a new area follow 4 easy steps:

 

Put out your security. Immediately!

 

Lay in your automatic weapons, then everybody else. Make sure the Scouts put their eyes on the ground when they map out dead space beyond their holes. be sure you can cover the dead space with indirect fire weapons.

 

Clear brush and veg back to the max range of your weapons

 

Entrenchment and obstacles. Dig em' deep and don't forget the grenade sump.

 

 

Us SNCO's(still no civilian opportunities) have to stick together.

 

 

The major difference between the "Corps and Scouting is that the Scouts have adult supervision. (i've always loved that joke no matter what rank I held.)

Lisa,

I think this is a great thread you started! Great topic!

LEADERSHIP PRINCIPLES

 

1. BE TECHNICALLY PROFICIENT. To know his job thoroughly, the leader must possess a wide field of knowledge. He must understand the technical aspects of the operation of the command and the methods and procedures of organization, administration, instruction, and personnel management. The leader should also possess a sound understanding of human behavior and human relations. Furthermore, the leader must have a working knowledge of the duties, responsibilities, and problems of subordinates.

 

a. A thorough knowledge of the job gives the leader confidence and reflects in the actions of subordinates. Subordinates' recognition of the fact that the leader knows the job creates in them confidence, trust, and respect. The leader must know his stuff. Do not fool yourself. You may fool your superiors, but YOU CANNOT FOOL YOUR SCOUTS. To develop this principle you should:

 

1) Seek a well-rounded Scout education by using NYLT, unit guidance, the mistkes of others, methods used by successful Scout in the same situation.

 

2) Seek out and associate with capable leaders. Observe and study their actions.

 

3) Seek opportunities to apply knowledge through exercise of command. Good leadership is only acquired through practice.

 

4) Prepare yourself for the job of the leader at the next higher rank.

 

2. KNOW YOURSELF AND SEEK SELF-IMPROVEMENT. Leaders must know themselves thoroughly. Leaders must recognize their own strengths as well as their weaknesses. A good leader continually strives to increase his leadership ability as well as his technical knowledge. For example, Scouts who do not increase their knowledge continually will have to bluff in front of their personnel. Bluffing is like a malignant disease; it keeps eating away until all confidence is consumed. Self-improvement can be achieved by studying and observing. Use the leadership traits to determine your strengths and weaknesses. To develop this principle you should:

 

a. Make an honest evaluation of yourself to find your strong and weak personal qualities. Strive to overcome the weak ones and further strengthen those in which you are strong.

 

b. Solicit the honest opinions and ideas of friends or superiors to show how to improve yourself and your leadership ability.

 

c. Learn by studying the causes for the success or failure of other leaders.

 

d. Set definite goals and plans to achieve them.

 

3. KNOW YOUR SCOUTS AND LOOK OUT FOR THEIR WELFARE. This is one of the most important of the leadership principles. A leader must make a conscientious effort to observe the members of the command as often as possible. He should become personally acquainted with each of his SCOUTS. Knowledge of their problems, recognizing their individual differences, and sharing in their joys and sorrows, will enable the leader to gain a better understanding of how subordinates react and function under various conditions.

 

a. Being responsible for your Patrol involves more than just lip service. Be concerned about each individual problem of each person. Know their education background. Find out about their barracks life, the mess hall or any problems they might have. Do not attempt to act like a psychiatrist trying to solve a problem. Share the problem, offer suggestions, and try to direct the men in the right direction. To put this principle into practice you should:

 

1) Put your Scout's welfare above your own. Correct their grievances and remove discontent.

 

2) Get to know and understand all of the Scouts in your command.

 

3) Concern yourself with the living conditions of the members of your unit. Actively supervise their hygiene and sanitation.

 

4) Be visible and approachable. Let your SCOUTS know that you are interested in them and what they are doing. Show them that you are determined for them to succeed. Allow them to express their problems.

 

5) Help your Scouts to get support for their personal problems.

 

4. KEEP YOUR Scouts INFORMED. The men who are well informed about the mission, situation, and purpose of a particular task, are considerably more effective than those who are not so informed. People are inquisitive by nature. The informed men will perform their assigned task with more initiative, enthusiasm and loyalty. Far too often, leaders tend to give orders without explaining "why" the job must be done. Granted, there will be times when you might not have time to explain why a job has to be done, but do explain, when time permits, thereby eliminating a lot of fear of the unknown. An understanding man is a willing man. Blind obedience to orders can sometimes be just as bad as a person who disobeys orders. The job might get accomplished, but the morale of your unit will drop, and in the long run, your unit will falter. The best policy is to explain situations to your men whenever possible. Techniques to apply this principle are:

 

a. Whenever possible, explain why tasks must be done and how you intend to do them.

 

b. Assure yourself, through supervision and inspections that your subordinates are passing on necessary information.

 

c. Be alert to detect the spread of rumors. Stop them and replace them with the truth.

 

d. Build morale and esprit de corps by publicizing the successes of your unit.

 

e. Keep your unit informed on current affairs and personnel matters.

 

5. SET THE EXAMPLE. Leaders must be good examples for their men in integrity, courage, knowledge, professional competence, personal appearance, and personal conduct. Moreover, they must set personal and professional standards for the organization by their performance. If the leaders appear in a favorable light, the mutual confidence and respect that must exist between them and their men is not destroyed. Some techniques for setting the example are:

 

a. Show your unit that you are willing to do the same things you ask them to do.

 

b. Maintain an optimistic outlook. Develop the will to win by capitalizing on your units abilities in difficult situations.

 

c. Conduct yourself so that you are not open to criticism.

 

d. Be physically fit, well-groomed and correctly dressed.

 

e. Avoid showing favoritism to any subordinates.

 

f. Be loyal to seniors and juniors.

 

g. Share danger and hardships with your men.

 

6. ENSURE THAT THE TASK IS UNDERSTOOD, SUPERVISED, AND ACCOMPLISHED. Leaders must give clear, concise orders that cannot be misunderstood, then by close supervision, ensure that these orders are properly executed. Before you can expect your men to perform, they must know what is expected of them. Be sure that they understand. The issuance of an order is the initial, and relatively small part, of the leaders' responsibility. The principle responsibility lies in supervision to make sure that the order is properly executed. It is this responsibility that is most difficult to carry out. A good leader will make wise use of his subordinates in the chain of command to supervise the execution of his orders.

 

a. In addition to communicating orders a leader must supervise correctly. There are two extremes of supervision to avoid, over supervision and under supervision. Under supervision will not get the job done. Showing a lack of interest on your part will develop into a lack of interest by your subordinates. On the other hand, over supervision makes people nervous, hurts initiative, and creates resentment. You must check the finished product but do not stand over someone's shoulders and watch every move they make. Offer them guidance, but then allow them to use their own initiative to get the job done. After they have completed the job, offer suggestions that might make their work easier. There is nothing wrong with offering advice or instructions while they are actually working, but give them the opportunity to at least try before you jump in. Doing this will help you also, because your men will be content and will be training to take your place. The most important part of this principle is the accomplishment of the mission. All the leadership, supervision and guidance are wasted if the mission is not accomplished. In order to develop this principle you should:

 

1) Ensure that the need for an order exists before issuing the order.

 

2) Use the established chain of command

 

3) Through study and practice issue clear, concise, and positive orders.

 

4) Encourage subordinates to ask questions concerning any part of your orders they do not understand. At the same time, question them to determine if there is any doubt or misunderstanding in regard to the task to be accomplished.

 

5) Make sure that your unit has the resources to accomplish its mission.

 

6) Exercise care and thought in supervising the execution of your orders.

 

7. TRAIN YOUR Scouts AS A TEAM. This requires from each member a high degree of morale, esprit de corps, and proficiency. The duty of all leaders includes the development of teamwork through training of their commands, whether a Patrol or a TROOP. Leaders who fail to foster teamwork while training their commands will not obtain the desired degree of unit efficiency. Insist that subordinate leaders understand the strengths and weaknesses of their personnel.

 

a. Be realistic in your approach to training. Ensure that your personnel know their job before you attempt an operation that may cause embarrassment to you and your unit. Never overlook an individual. A team that is effective requires that each person in the team do their own job. Therefore, each member of the team should be considered and all members should train and work together as a team. To develop the techniques of this principle you should:

 

1) Strive to maintain individual stability in subordinate units. Needless transfers disrupt teamwork.

 

2) Emphasize use of the buddy system at all times.

 

3) Use subordinate units rather than individuals or volunteers to accomplish tasks.

 

4) Never publicly blame an individual for the teams failure, nor praise an individual for the teams success.

 

5) Ensure that all training is meaningful and its purpose is understood by all members. Base team training on realistic, current, and probable conditions.

 

8. MAKE SOUND AND TIMELY DECISIONS. The ability to make a rapid estimate of the situation and arrive at a sound decision is essential to leaders. A good leader must be able to reason logically under the most trying conditions. Hesitation or reluctance to make a decision leads subordinates to lose confidence in a leader's ability, and creates confusion and hesitation within the unit. Once a leader makes a decision and discovers that it is the wrong one, he should not hesitate to revise his decision. Don't try to bluff, changes made will not have a lasting effect on personnel if you are honest and explain why the change is necessary. Techniques to develop this principle include:

 

a. When time and circumstances permit, plan for every reasonably possible event that can be foreseen.

 

b. Consider the advice and suggestions from subordinates whenever possible before making decisions.

 

c. Announce decisions in time to allow subordinates to make plans of their own. Encourage them to make plans at the same time that you do.

 

d. Make sure that all personnel are familiar with your plans and policies.

 

e. Consider the effects of your decisions on all members of the unit.

 

9. DEVELOP A SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY AMONG SUBORDINATES. Another way to show a leader's interest in his men is to give them the opportunity for professional development. Assigning tasks and delegating authority promotes mutual confidence and respect between leader and subordinates. It also encourages subordinates to exercise initiative and to give complete cooperation in accomplishing the unit's mission. The majority of Scouts are willing to accept any task or responsibility you might give them. They take pride in the trust and confidence you give them. Even in a small unit your men, particularly your NCOs, should be assigned tasks or responsibilities whenever possible.

 

a. The Patrol leadr who shows initiative and seeks responsibility will receive responsibility and the authority to execute that responsibility. Most senior NCOs and officers are more than happy if they can delegate authority to a hard - charging NCO. By doing so, it allows the senior to concentrate on other things that may be more urgent or important. To develop this principle you should:

 

1) Be quick to give credit to the men that perform their tasks well; do not selfishly retain the credit for yourself.

 

2) Operate through the chain of command. Assign personnel to positions based on demonstrated or potential ability. Give them frequent opportunities to perform duties associated with the next higher rank.

 

3) Resist the urge to micro manage. Don't give restrictive guidance that destroys initiative, drive, and enthusiasm in subordinates. Provide clear, well thought-out directions. Tell subordinates what to do, not how to do it. Give advice and assistance freely when asked.

 

4) Delegate enough authority to subordinates to enable them to accomplish the task. Hold them responsible for results, remembering that the overall responsibility is yours.

 

5) Correct errors in initiative and judgment as they occur, in a way that will encourage subordinates to try harder. Avoid public criticism. Accept honest mistakes without punishment, and teach from these mistakes by honest critique and constructive guidance.

 

6) Be prompt and fair in backing subordinates. Until convinced otherwise, have faith in each subordinate.

 

10. EMPLOY YOUR Patrol IN ACCORDANCE WITH ITS CAPABILITIES. To employ a command properly, the leader must have a thorough knowledge of the tactical and technical capabilities of the command. The leader must assign objectives or tasks to a unit that they are trained to do, properly evaluate time and space factors, and employ the command with sound judgment. Otherwise failure is likely to occur, and recurrent failure brings about a collapse of morale. But if the situation demands, men must be pushed without hesitation, sometimes beyond their known capabilities. Techniques for developing this principle are:

 

a. Do not volunteer a unit for an impossible or needless task.

 

b. Know the operational effectiveness, and training status of the unit.

 

c. Be sure that tasks assigned to subordinates are reasonable. Do not hesitate to demand their utmost in an emergency.

 

d. Analyze all assigned tasks. Use the full capabilities of the unit before requesting outside assistance. If the means at your disposal are inadequate, request the necessary support.

 

e. Assign tasks equally among all personnel.

 

11. SEEK RESPONSIBILITY AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS AND THE ACTIONS OF YOUR UNIT. Leaders must be quick to seize the initiative in the absence of instructions from their superiors by seeking responsibility. This develops them professionally and increases their potential ability. The leader holds subordinates strictly responsible for results and rarely for methods or procedures as long as they are legal. Such action by the leader engenders trust, faith, and confidence. It develops initiative and wholehearted cooperation.

 

a. The leader of a unit is responsible for what the unit does or fails to do. The leader recognizes and acknowledges this responsibility on all occasions. Any effort to evade this responsibility destroys the bond of loyalty and respect that must exist between the leader and his subordinates. The person who does just enough to get by does not advance or achieve much as a scout who goes the extra mile. We must carefully evaluate a subordinate's failure. Never be afraid to offer or receive criticism. It can help you and your unit. Techniques in developing this principle are to:

 

1) Learn the duties of your immediate superior and be prepared to accept the responsibilities of those duties.

 

2) Take every opportunity that offers increased responsibility. Seek different leadership positions to broaden your experience.

 

3) Perform every act to the best of your ability. The reward will be increased opportunity to perform bigger, more important tasks.

 

4) Stand up for what you think is right.

 

5) Carefully evaluate a subordinate's failure before taking action. Make sure that the apparent shortcomings are not due to an error on your part. Salvage when possible, replace when necessary.

 

6) In the absence of orders, take the initiative to perform the actions you believe your senior would direct if he were present.

 

Unashamedly(sp?) paraphrased from the Guide book For Marines.

LEO is not a sarcastic term. Just an acronym in an acronym filled world.

 

go to jouster.com the term is used there all the time by LEO's veterans, liberals, cowboys, people who are people.

 

 

 

 

I'd sign my kid up for the firearm course. That's what I strive to call it.

My kid will have a lot of guns someday. They are his we are just keeping them, and from time to time I use the ones that were his Grandfather's.

The only time I want him to bear a weapon is if someone is going to do harm to him, his family or anyone he can save.

That all being said, at the NRA cert course we just took we joked that who ever said the word "weapon" would have to buy a case of adult beverage. I was fine until I said, "make a complete safe weapon."

 

"Complete safe firearm" is like a tongue twister to me but I am practicing.

 

I think the kids will favor the weapon name but I don't think it's right. If his Mother was ever threatened by an intruder you would not have to tell the average kid what a weapon was, I think instinct would take over.

To kids weapons are what Arnold Schwarzy carries around in an action movie.

 

 

 

 

Safety first, never last, have a future, not a past.

Merlyn,

I don't know what the whole speech said so I should not really comment. He had to say something to men and women that will give 12 years of their life learning and serving to keep the wolf from the door.

 

Are you Michael Moore in cognito? He was an Eagle.

If Al Gore had continued reading with kids for another 7 minutes I don't think I could hold that against him. We don't know what was whispered in GWB's ear. At that moment not too many people really knew what was going on. I think it took the Air traffic control folks more than seven minutes and those were frontline folks no somebody at the top of the chain of command. I know you're not a warrior but the Generals never know as much about a specific incident as a fire team leader.

 

 

My main thought with the initial comment was why are we reaching ot to a group when 40% of them think our nation is lying to it's people thinking that we could kill 3 or 4k of our own people.

 

Further, there is no central leading figure that denounces the September 11 attacks.(if there is Lisa please provide a link)

 

 

ASM,

I drove the train off the tracks, and probably should stay off the issues and politics page.

Merlyn,

 

What else would the VPOTUS say to a bunch of ring knockers? "Go forth and crochet!" Some of those folks are going to the meat grinder.

 

Right now we could pull out. The left has no remorse for the killing fields in Cambodia or Vietnam what's a few million arabs?

 

the bad guys will waste you with your MUCH holier than thou thoughts just as quick as they waste me. Hate Bush all you want, see if that buys your safety.

They blew up the WTC once, long before GWB won the election.

 

A friend of mine was there on that day too.

 

They just didn't have enough explosive to knock it over. I think GWB was owner of the Texas Rangers then and Cheney worked for the hated Halliburton.(whatever they were doing they weren't "reigning") So they were trying to kill us long before Bush and Darth came along.

 

If 19 guys from Chicago blew up the sites in Mecca or Medina do you think there would be two stones still standing the day after at any American site on the "arab street"? Would they say, "Wait there are good Americans relate to them?"

 

.05% of the liberals don't want to kill me so your point is moot. They might wish me dead but they need my tax dollars so we can buy clean needles to give to heroin addicts and other wonderful programs like that.

 

Lisa,

Please don't quote chapter and verse, because many of your thoughts are contrary to what the founder said. You either buy into it or you don't. Also it was never meant to be a suicide pact or death wish. I'll gladly accept him and his culture but when somebody with similar beliefs and background wants to eat my son's liver you'll have to pardon me if I'm not so accepting anymore. I'm shallow that way.

 

I've got a copy of Footsteps of the Founder too, we can start quoting all you want.