theysawyoucomin'

GE5,

What did you find out from Council?

Knot head,

Thank you for mentioning Backpacking. Would divide the wheat from the chaff. BIG TIME.

We say we are an outdoor group but that's lip service. We have kids make Eagle who don't do duff when it comes to real camping. Most camporee are more like an overnight picnic lunch.

Doing Laundry and other home ec type stuff is what you learn when your

Mother is audacious(sp?) enough to suggest you get the game controller out of you hand for 2 seconds while you help her with some of the menial chores, after all she's probably been at work all day helping your family's ends meet and the average kid is coddled so much he may as well be still in connected by his belly button.

sewing is important so is doing laundry.

No merit badge is required,make it a Tenderfoot requirement that the Scout sew his Scout patch. Done. As far a sewing being for sissies, I wish we could reincarnate some old time filthy dirty sailors that were tough as nails, call them sissies while they repair sails.

I love watching us sink to Hades in a handbasket.

Eolesen,

I hear you saying no but I don't see a better sugestion.

If we start pushing for more of their time... push them father away.

So we have one less Eagle.

He was not present

What's the difference with this one????? HE WAS NOT THERE.

Lisa, I just thought of it last night. How could I have posed it to the boy. Again this kid thinks the fact that he was an absentee Scout was OK.

Many folks here think the same way.

Neil,

Thank you for looking for that. 4 errors in one game? The boys at the corner of Brookline and Yawkey are killing me!!! They usually don't have 4 errors in a month. At age 12 I saw on a BB card Rico Petrocelli had the same birthday as me. That was enough to get me a ticket on The Titanic. C'mon guys!!!!!!!

Gern, That would be fine.

How about?

As a LS serve actively in one of the following positions for 6 months:Spl,PL, quartermaster, instructor, Den Chief,Troop Guide for a new Scout Patrol.

and

upon completion,or prior to that leadership position, for the 6 months prior to acheiving the Eagle requirements serve the Troop as a senior Scout in tasks, determined in concert with the SM, SPL and committee chair, that will best put your knowledge, skills and interests to use mentoring and aiding your Troop as they (CC,SM,SPL) direct, with the overall goal of helping your unit serve your community and the Nation.

Would not stop a hard charger. That would make the boy plan his final year in the path to Eagle.

If all three had to work together to choose the method I think that could curb any one person from killing the requirement by making the job so big and setting him up for failure and thereby hammering out a grudge so the boy did not advance.

For example, if my fireman, whom the whole thread is about could have been told:

Hey Todd we'd like you to do the following three things in the six months before Eagle

1. Give a tour of the fire house demonstrating the actual use of some of the items you're learning to use in your training and service to our town. On that trip describe what a terrible shortage there is in our area for people who are willing to volunteer their time to do this work. Talk about the history of your house and show the area on a map that you cover both primarily and by mutual aid.

2. Arrange for the volunteer ambulance folks to come and give a demo on the rig that serves our community. Tell the boys what they can expect to see in the way of aid for a car accident.

3. work as the SPL directs to get the S-T-2-1st class Scouts to be proficient with first aid and fire safety.

Would have made the kid a hero to bring the Troop to the fire house and hold a working hose, tie a scout to a backboard ect, helped the community by possibly adding to the amount of volunteers. Helped the Troop by increasing knowledge in FA and FS.

He would have been able to do this in about 8 hours.

Can we all agree that that would have been fun for Todd to display his real passion?

Can we agree that it could possibly be interesting for the boys? Can we agree that it would get us all a heck of a lot closer to boy led, using the most able Scouts to help lead or teach while not steamrolling the current SPL?

Kids that weren't a firefighter could do something similar. Jocks could discuss physical fitness. Brains could show leading science that was in the works to advance our lives. Motor heads could show vehicle maint. to get the most life and gas mileage out of the cost of a car. Kids that worked in a Lumber yard could discuss OSHA in the workplace ect. Kids that played Grand theft auto 16 hours a day and laid on their parents couch all day staining it with food ....... well, they might have it a little tough.

1. I myself would have had to demonstrate farm harvest and produce sales.

Rotation of stock so as to move product better. Types of apples and what their best uses were. How apple cider is mass produced, and what happens if there is no preservative in it. Discuss why fruit should be washed. Discuss the health benefits of eating fruits and veggies.Would have showed how tough that work is. Could have discussed crop theft and vandalism and gave the farmers point of view.

2. Take the younger kids fishing for bluegills and , with the help of a MBC or adult, teach something about fishing. Maybe the first aid part. Talk about catch and release and lead a trash clean up along my favorite stretch of a trout stream.

3. Lastly set up a meeting with a Marine and discuss what that job is like. Give a short talk on the history of the Marine Corps and all the places you can currently serve. Not a recruitment thing so settle down all of you. We'd be sharing an interest here. About 1 kid in 100 cares about the Marine Corp enough to join so it isn't like it would be an every other month thing.

About 8 or ten hours. Could be more could be less.

Could we have done this here, yes. However his mother would have said we were picking on him and adding to the requirements.

Any common ground here?

Semper,

Can you imagine a US Coast Guard where nobody showed up?

Vessels full of people that can't read a chart or don't listen to the weather screaming into a radio for help. But the guy had other things to do. Maybe he was learning to be a priest.

Lighthouse operators that did their best to keep the flame going yet were busy doing other things?

Can we say they did their job? Would they win an award?

Wak---before the present regime of adults was doing such a cruddy job of guiding the Troop( after all we can't keep older boys who think only of other persuits, be they noble or not) the OA nights camping was somehow relaxed. Don't ask me how, I was busy imposing my iron fisted will on a Cub den at that time requiring them to become marathon runners in the Webelos program(just because I think they should give more).

Gern no ----I do not think it's a marriage or a calling that a boy must be married to Scouting forsaking all others until HS graduation.

Would have been nice to see a nice kid have a lead by example, role model to some kids younger than he is. Way, way too much to ask for.

Gern I dislike kids who punch out and use the Eagle patch as a Star Trek teleporter. Is it too much to come around every once in a while and help out?

Old Grey Eagle--you are correct, they is, what they is... Heck if you had the 1948 requirement---maybe only 2% would make the grade.

II. Scout Participation

1. While a Life Scout, for a period of six months show TO THE SATISFACTION OF YOUR LEADER that you.

a. Work actively as a leader in meetings, outdoor activities and service projects of you unit.

Now I wasn't around in 1948 but I wonder if "active" would have meant one overnight in 2 years. I wonder how many "deathbed Eagles" there were? You guys are right the deathbed thing could be offensive how about "Hail Flutie Eagles"?(no offense to Boston College students).

As far as the poser comment, you weren't at the BOR when he said, "I'm all about Scouting. and "I liked camping the most of all".

I know none of you agree with me, please just trust me on one or two of the comments he made------- the stuff was getting deep.

Anybody think there's no mandatory participation requirement because the powers that be think it's implied?

Neil,

Can you please tell me where I can find a ref for the associate member status?

I have tried to google it, goog isn't all inclusive but it's a good start and I cannot find it.

Naw Bob, when the Dist. Adv Chair asked him if he would do anything different he said no.

It was perfect......I heard Frank Sinatra sing, "And now the end is near.....regrets I had a few...to few to mention"

It was beautiful, man it was just beautiful.

Really we just saved the people that would have listened to his appeal some time. And we in the Troop wasted too much time on this poser already.

Keep the personal IMcoming I love the similar stories I'm getting.

Suffice it to say, it is a very good thing his passion was firefighting and not Scouts.

If he had missed as many firefighting classes as he did Troop and Patrol events he would have never been certified a firefighter.

As a kid I earned the Arrow of Light. Joined a Troop, after about eight months in I contracted pleurisy.

After I could breathe again, was told by the Doc that I could get it again very easily. Camping in the cold was not suggested. I didn't know how serious it was, I just knew it was about 4 weeks before I could breathe without pain. Only learned later that people die from it. Ben Franklin almost died from it, Ringo Starr had it,Enrico Caruso,"the singer" did die from it. Never knew anybody else personally that had it.

Parents were going through a divorce that made WW2 look like a small skirmish. There was not alot of parental support for Scouting when they were doing everything short of killing each other.

Biggest downfall was the Troop I was in folded up shop. Had no feeder pack. The other Troop in town was nothing like the Troop I came from. I opted not to join it.

So, do I wish I stayed with it? Sure. Do I hold the Eagle Award and the Patrol Method in high regard? Sure.

Do I bust my tail to work with the Adults to give the kids the best support they can get? Sure. Do I look out for those kids whose home isn't supporting Scouting? It's my job.

This kid could have given back to the Troop. Could have mentored boys like he was mentored. He could have been important in the life of a boy younger than him. Could have taken 10% of all that effort he used other places, doing other things, and made sure some 12 year old had a 16 year old to look up to. Maybe he could have done something to make a boy who was dropping stay in. We'll never know.

I think I have a card in my wallet that says something about being important in the life of a boy. I got it at some BSA training period.

Scouts can be important in the lives of other Scouts.

He could have been the SPL again (or PL) after doing a mediocre job at 14, could have done a great job at 16. He could have advised the next 14 or 15 year old boy away from the rocks and shoals in that POR.

There could be some kid in our Troop that will miss him. Some kid that might say, "Todd taught me that." There is no such Scout.

This kid is leaving town, his picture will be up on the wall in our Scout room for as long as there is a Troop. Right now we are 84 years old. I hope we go for another 84 years. The young kids will see him up on the wall. So will the adults.

I could give a wit less what he does from now on. He wasn't being looked at for what he will do in the future.

I didn't spend alot of time in college. The VEAP program for veterans was not going to keep anybody in school very long. I have an AAS in Civil Engineering Tech. I didn't shoot for a 2.0. I took 7 classes one semester,worked at Hess for minimum wage and was a Sergeant in the Marine Reserves. I got 7 B's. I did not think anybody would hire somebody that had a 2.0

In the Marine Corps perfection was the goal. Excellence was tolerated. People used their leisure time to get their 3 mile run time down to 18 minutes so they could get a perfect score on the fitness test. People focused on shooting so they could strive for high expert. On the pull up bar, when you can't do another we always ask for, " One for the'Corps ,one for Chesty Puller, one more for yourself".

This ain't the 'Corps by a longshot. But every time I see a Scout I ask him for more. More so that he may experience life to the fullest. I don't demand more that would be over bearing, celebrate the good and suggest more.

Within Scouting for the past 3 years there has been nothing to celebrate with this kid. And to think I'm the idiot that asked him to come back. I placed the Eagle workbook inside his storm door and called him and asked him for more.

All of you didn't have to go to Wood Badge. You wanted more. you wanted more tools to serve the boys. Heck you can get all the knots and serve in any "frontline" position you want without Wood Badge, but you wanted more.

Calico, Our SM is an Eagle. He didn't want to promote this kid but there was nothing that he could point to where the Scout did not do the minimum. So much for pedestal theory.

If the Doomsdayers are correct, life will be much harder tomorrow than it is today. Isn't it time the mediocrity stopped? Are we helping kids by lowering the bar?

I don't believe we did this kid one bit of good by awarding him this award. We didn't do the Scouts that are watching one bit of good either.

He'll get his Eagle and all is right with his world.

Oh, and that cold weather camping I missed because of pleurisy. I've been to Mountain Warfare Training at Bridgeport Calif in December, CW Training at Camp Ripley Minn. in December, above the Artic Cirle in Norway twice and a weekend BSA Okpik in the Southern Adirondacks... I wanted more.

Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?

Robert Browning

There isn't one.

Kid was given a thumbs up.

Kid was told he did the minimum. Kid was self righteous but agreed he could have done more.

Kid moves away in a month. Not one other Scout will look back at him with a fond memory.

But he did all the requirements!!!!

I sure hope some boys show up so we can get to be boy led.

Horizon what makes you think a Troop has to kiss this kids tail end to get him to stay active? 20 people just said it doesn't matter how active one is.

How in the world can the CO specify that a boy must belong to a certain church body and yet they don't allow a CO to mandate the minimum level of participation. I could list every trip the unit went on during his time learning to be a fireman and it would make your head spin.

We should spin a thread WHAT IS THE MINIMUM LEVEL OF PARTICIPATION?

The handbook talks about outdoor adventure in many places but it sure isn't required. So why bring it up.

The firehouse was a bigger draw only trouble was Mommy wanted him to have the silver chicken too. Well they got it.

You can all sleep well.

No kids feelings were harmed in minimizing the requirements.

Thank you all for your comments. I appreciate your time and comments.

Feedback is a gift, all feedback.

I don't want to hear about being a fireman , they have separate accolades for that. Being an eagle does not make you a fireman. Being a fireman does not make you an Eagle.

As far as last minute work, I worked my ticket until seven days before the deadline. One goal I picked was unattainable. I preformed another. I only mention the age of the boy because we can't tell him to work a little harder and come back in six months.

As far a bashing, I have contemplated giving this kid a fair shake for more hours that the amount of hours the kid spent scouting last year. Nobody is bashing anyone. Accountability, that is the question.

The final thing I'll say: The Armed Forces thinks so highly of the the Eagle Award that they accelerate the promotion schedule about one year and $2890 for the first years wages in any branch of the military. The Eagle gets an 18% pay raise because America thinks so highly about what we are doing. America thinks that much of the award.

They are thinking the kid led somebody. The kid taught others what he knew, he was a mentor. He acted alot like a Non-commissioned Officer. A small unit leader charged with the well being of his unit. Good Middle management. That the kid gave back, he was unselfish. That the kid functioned as part of a group. He put others before self.

You can't mentor when you aren't there.

The military thinks the kid passed a national standard for excellence(5%) in a youth organization. Maybe the most respected youth organization in America. We love to brag about Flucky, Armstrong, Paige,Speilberg, and others.

If it isn't excellence we crave, then all those Eagle ceremonies that I have been to weren't based in truth. I'd take the zeal for excellence as good enough instead it was "Scouting comes later, when I'm done doing all those other things that I really like.

I have to go get ready,30 minutes of answering the questions correctly will have a hard time replacing 30 months of what was supposed to be Scouting.

Guys the focus is not on camping only ONE concrete example(mathematically indisputable) example as to how this kid didn't do jack you know what for the unit.

This boy led thing must work great in units where the top 5% never show up.

Kid was a poster child for the spawn of the "me generation" becoming the "helicopter parent--you are picking on my baby crowd"

Stop the planet and let me off.

Bob,

depends on what Be active means

3 nights in '03

3 nights in '04

2 nights in '05

ZERO in '06 and

1 in '07

plus 12 nights in Summer camp. Top 5% of Scouting , I think not. Did he do his best to show up. I think not.

I've got a kid with 43 nights in 2 1/2 years.

One kid with 92 nights in 5 years.

I don't quite think the unit is at fault.

I'm the comm chair. and an active parent.

When challenged on participation by the SM

Boy said he would step it up and never did.

When it came to scouts he was a poser and a taker. Period.

Great kid. Fireman. Just certainly didn't give his all to the Troop.

And yes, I could care less about the appeal, good for him , others probably think he deserves it , but I don't and if I say no to the BOR then the advancement is not in my name.

I agree BOB we do need to take our roles seriously that's why I'm thinking about saying no.

When the Boy was brought before the Comm he agreed that he needed to participate more.

This is the first chance I have had in any advancement role with this boy.

As I said SM regrets his approval.

Some silver chickens don't shine as brightly as others.

Quizzing him won't change the fact that he did not camp anymore than 9 nights in 5 years.

He'll still get what he wants.

Gern you've been around a long time you can't tell me you were overjoyed with every advancement you saw go through.

The fact that I care enough to question the integrity of the badge should tell you it's not just a passing thought.

Thank you both for you opinions

Monday I sit on an Eagle BOR.

Candidate is over 18. Project done. Merit Badges all present and accounted for. SM very reluctantly signed off- is now having second thoughts.

Boy has spent 9 nights camping in the last five years. He has attended weeklong camp in '04 and '05 for a whopping total of 21 days (12 at camp 9 with the Troop) in 5 years. He was with another troop for a time in '02 I can only assume he got other camping in for the Camping MB(that really question if he earned) no matter the counselor already signed off.

His POR was as SPL years ago in '05. Far as anybody remembers he did OK. In the past three years that I have observed the Boy has not mentored a younger Scout or passed on anything of value to anybody that would show he was leading anyone.

One of those weekends include a "sash and dash" driveby for the white thingy with the big red arrow. He also wears a neato pocket flap with out having paid dues since his ordeal weekend in '03 nor any other OA activity.

Some years he attended meetings some years not so much.

Boy and parents were asked to appear before the Troop Comm last November because SM thought that his participation is/was lacking. He attended a few meetings (5 total) in '08. He attended a January '07 inter-Troop competition. Attended one night of a cabin freeze out in Feb 'o7. April '07 he attended a highway trash clean up.

He spent 4 total days in '07 on other boys Eagle projects helping on non-part-time job work days and when the firehouse pull wasn't so strong. By some accounts he busted his tail on those days.

Kid's mother thinks he went to Brownsea and everything since. Thinks the adults in the Troop are stonewalling the boy.

Boy has worked at a local business for the past few years; paid for his own car. Boy is a good worker.

Boy has attained volunteer firefighter status and spent most of his time there, his Eagle project benefitted the firehouse. His passion lies with the fire company.

Boy is a good kid.

Why should this boy make Eagle?

Eagle is not a lifetime achievement award.

Some say look at all the community hours he works. I think it is wrong to double dip the firehouse time for scout time and award this.

Problem also is we have promoted some in the past who are clearly not up to the moral standards that this boy exhibits. Why stop this one?

So do we keep on making mistakes?

There are many eyes and many years of experience here, your thoughts please.

I know he has an appeal available, he may need it. Boy is a great kid, he is lacking in numbers, numbers of times he participated in anything. Severely lacking.

I'm not looking to add to the requirements. This one just doesn't have it all there.

One of the ASM's who attends quite frequently asked who were talking about the other night. Does not know the kid.

Boy has asked 4 character witnesses to appear on his behalf. This is not anywhere in my copy of the advancement regs.

I keep thinking some kid in Iowa is having his BOR on Monday night and has done it all, while this kid sunk to a new low of barely showing up and kept digging.

Doesn't the kid from Iowa deserve some equal treatment?

John,

My point exactly

I did not need to know soup to nuts, I just knew I'd learn stuff to help the program.

John,

My point exactly

I did not need to know soup to nuts, I just knew I'd learn stuff to help the program.

I think DCs are wonderful. I had one for two years as a DL. One of my WB ticket items was the focus of DC activity manual.

I feel the BSA used to think that a DC was quite important as for the first six years of "cubbing" from '30 to '36 all there was was a DC, no den Mother-no adult. Norman Rockwell painted two paintings of DC and only one of the SM so he or the folks that paid him thought it was important.

My First Class Scout son is getting rained on at his second Cub camp with his den as I type this. He has grown up a lot during his year as a DC. Now the boy wants to be a PL. Last year the kid never would have ventured out of his "safe" zone.

I too would agree that the boy should vary his leadership experience and be encouraged to do so.

My DC went on to be the SPL and did a fine job.

A boy should know how to lead those younger than him and also his peers.

I don't think it is stupid to vary a Scouts POR. I would be mad if my son's SM made sure he was only the historian for his time in Scouting. If you are a good DC you are liable to do well at other things. Is it important for a young man to accomplish varied tasks in a safe environment?

My opinion is that a boy should not be an Eagle unless he has served as at least a PL.

I would think DC, then quartermaster, then PL or SPL would be ideal.

Being a DC with the same DL and the same den would be limiting to a Scout's experience. Sure it would pass an appeal but what's best for the boy?

Alas I think the BSA cheats a boy by saying you can be an Eagle if you have been a librarian as a FC, a Scribe as a Star and a bugler as a Life Scout.

I agree with Calico on importance but not the Scout's "well round experience"(my quote)

An Eagle can soar on sunny days and cloudy days.

Would you want your son to look back and say "I had a couple different jobs in Scouts. I worked with Cubs, accounted for Troop gear, did paperwork for the SPL, kept a scrapbook of the Troops history and led my own group of 8 boys on a camping trip all by myself".

or

For three years I planned meetings with Mr Kircher and led the boys up from Bear to Weebs 1 and 2. We did crafts and played games. I taught them to use a pocket knife. I taught them to fish. they really grew up as I did during that time. I helped the boys transition into the Troop and it was fun.

I agree with KCM. But I don't make the rules.

KCM do you have a boy that only wants to do that or are you just asking?

"If I go to a range for shooting I expect an appropriately certified range officer there"

I don't know what the regs are in Wisconsin.

I have shot clay at many ranges in Florida, North Carolina and New York.

The range officer is usually a member of the Club that volunteers his time to operate the machinery for the birds. If you come to NY and expect that old retired guy running the trap range to be certified by the NRA you'll get let down.

I have shot at the Ilion gun club where Remmington has it's shooting school. There was no certified instructor there.

I shot clays in Florida at Gen. Schwarzkopf's club and all we got was a device to count the birds used and a map of the stations.

A RSO is lower in heirarchy than an instructor.

G W- when is a merit badge activity not a BSA activity?

Have a kid get hurt shooting, sailing, fishing or even bit by a dog earning the vet merit badge and you'll find out MB activities are BSA activities as far as the insurance man is concerned. YPT is required for MB counselors because it is a BSA activity. MBCs are registered and given background check so the BSA doesn't lead a boy to a bad person. The BSA is liable.

Stosh being a Missouri RSO does not make one able to shoot with boys scouts. We have NYSDEC hunter safety instructors that cannot take boys to shoot. The NRA is a national body. The BSA chose a national standard. I am not saying that GE wouldn't do a great job but I think your advice would leave his 6 in the wind.

If you read the 3rd sentence in my second post you'll see I agree with Stosh ---you could do the instruction and allow others to do the shooting. GreenEagle is this what you really want?

GreenEagle- call your council office, get a letter in writing stating that you can "have his(your) boys shoot all he wants".

Then Stosh states "all he needs is an instructor to sit and supervise

while the boys shoot."

Well, all I need is to guess 8 numbers right in the mega jackpot and I'll be set for life. The critical step is left out. If I was only 7'4" I could be in the NBA

I think Stosh and I would both agree if you want to do every requirement of the MB you need to be NRA certified.

If you have an instructor to just watch the shooting , I would agree you are good to go. But it doesn't make much sense. Will the coucil review board apporve it?

Your best bet is to ask your DE see what he says. I'd be interested to know.

I thought the spirit of your question included ALL reqmts for the MB especially since you mentioned the range in your original post. I also took your question meaning you would be the sole "instructor" for the MB.

I have heard of a boy getting a "partial". Never a MBC being able to "partially " counsel.

I think the spirit of the review process for MB is to check your credentials. Heck, I could be a dentristy MBC if only I have a dentist help me.

I can't imagine a council certifying you to be a MBC and you not being allowed to supervise the "hands on" part of the MB. Scouting is doing.

Check with your DE. Cover your beast of burden.

By the way Stosh are you a MBC for any of the shooting sports? What council do you belong to? Are you in fact a shooting sports MBC or are you riding that razor thin edge just to be correct?

Call Twin Rivers ask for the Mahican Dist. Chair, he knows the efforts I put into getting 15 of us certified. I don't think it was in vain.

With shooting sports you could have years of experience and been hunting before you could walk but they need a national standard.

Why would a NRA certified Rifle instructor not be able to counsel Blackpowder or shotgunning. I think I know not to point the round hole opposite the stock at another person. They were looking for measureable expertise.

GreenEagle5,

let us know what the DE says.

Stosh,

The requirement for NRA certs is very plainly stated in the G2SS.

I suppose one can be a counselor without it, but I think you would have a hard time with the requirement where the Scout has to break some birds to finish up.

I suppose you could teach the boy what he needed to know. Then find the NRA instructor for the shooting.

C'mon now.

Greeneagle, You're doing it right by getting certified first.

We read a lot of posts here about WB and being ready for the course. I understand about being ready, heck WB courses are filled with people who have got their stuff together and want to do great things.

I had the 20 questions filled out.

I knew that it was the "mountain top" of training for adults.

But I did not know anything else.

I was clueless to the requirement of the ticket and that there was a practical phase.

I did not know about the ticket until the middle of the first week end.

I knew little about the course and came away with much.

How much did you know before you went?

Do you think it takes away from the course to know everything that will happen before it does?

In MY council you are required to be NRA certified.

This discussion has been had before about NRA certs. On this lovely Sunday mornig I don't have my facts together for a donnybrook so I'll tell you how we made it happen.

I wanted to be a rifle intructor. One for MBC because being able to do it just at camp is just plain wrong. One should be able to work on any MB any time of the year.

I also wanted to stage a metalic silhoueete shoot for the troop. Reactive targets in a fun atmosphere is so much more exciting that shooting paper. My buddy said at Philmont they were going to shoot an -06'. "At what?" I said. He didn't know. Turns out the have full sized steel at Philmont.

back to the cert.

Get together 20 like minded people to have a class then ask the NRA for the closest intructor and pay for him to come. We got a deal for $150 a couple of years ago. 15 people got it. The instructor came from about 100 miles but he was able to pay for the hotel, gas, and make some money .

Be sure to get the money up front.

Good luck.

wingnut about covered it.

Waubeeka's swimming hole is much nicer.

There is some overlap with program,otherwise wing said everything my buddy said.

Why not check out Camp Wakpominee. it is about 40 minutes away from Read and very nice. Check out Twin Rivers Council. or search Wakpominee

I too agree with Firekat. And the stuff GW said will help.

Start out slow.

Get your knees and ankles worked out. You simply can't hump a pack with bad mechanics under you. Doc says knee brace ...get one.

Get a pack that fits you. start with small weights and increase over time like folks said. Huge flights of stairs are great as are hills.

Look at your footwear. When you are getting your knee looked at ask if there are any insoles that Docs thinks you should use to damper the shock on your feet.

I can't spell or pronounce pilates so I have no comment. Do leg lifts and stomach excercises to strengthen your core. Strong belly also helps the back.

Most of all get a friend that has experience living out of a pack. some of the questions you write make me fear for your safety. Team up with a buddy that knows what he is doing.

Make the first 10 trips close to home and learn from your mistakes.

It can relly be a lot of fun if you are ready...it can really be torture of you are not.

Lisa,

I have a timber lease and a shack within 10 miles of Read.

It is truly beautiful country.

A co-worker from Saratoga NY as gone to Read probably 7 times.

Right now he is in Philmont, when he returns I will ask him and give you his answer.

you don't say what part of Jersey.

Camp Wakpominee is owned by Twin Rivers Council BSA.

Wakpominee is 20 minutes from lake George of Last of the Mohicans fame.

Judging by plates on cars half of NJ is in Lake George anyways.

Cmon up and try the camp out.