SSScout

The BSA is a religious organization, by definition. But it is NOT a religion (contrary to how some Scouters may treat their activities!). We've been thru that before. As to the PoA, it IS a requirement that a Cub Scout needs to KNOW the PoA, but it is NOT a requirement to recite it, if it is counter to their religious belief. I may know the tenets of Das Kapital, but that does not mean I agree with or support it. Jehovah's Witnesses, Quakers, some Mennonite adherents, and other religions have qualms about repeating the PoA and back that up with their faith in a deity that requires them to not worship (pledge loyalty to?) a piece of cloth. This does not mean they do not show respect for the symbol of our nation, only that the saying of something they do not agree with ("trustworthy", frinstance, see also Mat 5:33, lJohn 5:21 and Ps 96:5) is not right. Loyalty to country ("duty") has never correctly been defined as the mere reciting of any loyalty oath but as demonstrated by ones actions (or lack of?). I have had very little conversation about anyone not reciting the PoA. It is a non-issue in my experience. Thank you, Andy. It is for all boys who find agreement with Scoutings ideals and program. All food is for all boys, but squash is not for my son. So he says. Thank you, Merlyn, for making us think, but there is no dancing in this one. Only a welcome lack of dogma and some understanding.

Ditto jet526. Cubs are not included in Scout watercraft activities except as G2SS allows. But Boy Scouts... Ordinarily, Canoeing has to wait for summer camp. So: Recruit one or more experienced adults as Canoeing Merit Badge Counselors. Include that in your canoeing program. If the boys have mastered the Canoeing MB, they are ready for medium rivers and ripples. Real white water is another thing again. Canoe rescue practice can be done in the community pool, with advance arrangements. Ask to use the pool way before regular hours and make sure the boats are CLEAN before you enter the pool. (!!measure to assure the boats will fit thru the doors!!)Red Cross does this all the time and other Scout units use the pool in our community thusly. For this I recommend leaving the aluminum boats at home and only bring the ABS boats. Don't bump the tile! We have a lake nearby that is good for paddling practice, but it is part of the county's water supply, so no swimming allowed (no swamping on purpose!) As the boys get experience, plan an overnight trip. It's all down hill er, stream.

Check with the Cubs' school. See if there is a project that the boys could do, either individually together or as a team to benefit the school. Bird houses and feeders in the courtyard. Planter or bench out front. Simple shelves outside the office. Boxes for the boy's teachers. MiF KiS YiS

I'm sorry. I guess I thought that was obvious. "Barred from Cubs for not swearing allegiance to the Queen"

check out www.tubachristmas.com and the Harry Phillips Foundation. So are actions more important than mere words? Does the WAY we declare our loyalties (to God, Country, Queen (see other thread), truth, and/or family and Community) matter more than how we DEMONSTRATE them?

**big sigh** 1) No tour permit is needed to go to a local store. Check mileage requirement in TP instructions. 2) Cubs selling P/C should always be accompanied by parents and/or adult leaders with parent permission. Door to door or to uncles or to friendly nieghborhood car garages. 3) I believe adults are encouraged to HELP sell p/c too, notably to business associates, office mates, grandmoms in Montana, church members, etc. 4) It would have been good manners and ettiquette to tell the p/c CC about your plans. Such an idea might even inspire others to go to other stores and thereby spread the gospel of p/c good nutrition. 5) I seem to remember reading about the champion CS p/c seller as being a Cub who went to a corporate CEO and persuaded him to buy umpteen thousand dollars of p/c for his company's use. This is bad? 6) I have seen local restaurants and other businesses with BS p/c "in stock" on the shelf behind the cash register. I should tell'em to put it UNDER the counter? 7) Shall we discuss the acceptance of unsolicited donations (" Hey, I loved being a Scout. I don't really want any overpriced pocorn, but here's $20. for your Cub Pack.") here or elsewhere? There's a lot of unsold p/c out there. KiS MiF YiS

Emb021: Not quite true. I have a chart in front of me listing the members of the WOSM as of 2000. I admit to not fully understanding the differences, but France has six seperate types of "Scoutisme Francais" listed and Denmark has five "Fallesradet for Danmarks Drengespejdere" for instance, and there are several other nations with what seem to be multiple seperate Scout organizations under their flag.

"when I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean...neither more nor less." = Humpty Dumpty, in "Thru the Looking Glass"

Thank you for calling the controversy hotline. Your call is very important to us. Unfortunately, all of our debaters are presently busy with other chatroom discussions. Please hold on. One of our resident debaters will take your call shortly and then make you angry. ((elevator music... Meliquino Strings Tribute to Cream)) Please continue to hold. You have...three-posters-ahead-of-you... ((Meliquino Strings Do Disraeli Gears)) Hello? So the problems are 1) the definition of "enemy" and "sovereign" and 2) whether the DoI allows folks to remove the government they are unhappy with (so someone invented the democratic republican form to do it peacefully) and 3) NOT that we are asked to swear/promise/affirm to something publicly? Howbout them Redskins?

Advanced Pioneering at the National Jamboree: Merry-go-Rounds, Tensegrity structures (Buckminster Fuller), et al... http://fredericksburg.com/community/features/jamboree/ Any one else know any other pics of the Pioneering Area?

oops... forgot: http://www.ushistory.org/documents/creed.htm

But Pack, we're not talking about closed, natural systems here. Not negative entropy, but CHOICE. Even Maxwell's Demon has choice. The coffee cup HAS to cool off, and approach equality with it's surroundings, but for the CHOICE of the demon, yes? The person has to CHOOSE to follow the GR. It is NOT a entropic thing. Tigers do not CHOOSE to be nice and encouraging to the waterbuffalo in front of it's hungry eyes. ("eat up and get fatter for me, ummmmm.").

So as Scouts we promise (?in an "oath"?) "On my honor..." And we are asked , as citizens, to promise ("pledge"?) allegence to a piece of cloth and a nation... And in some religions, one is expected to declare agreement with certain "beliefs" (the "Nicene Creed" comes to mind). I would posit , for your perusal, The American's Creed: by William Tyler Page I believe in the United States of America as a government of the people, by the people, for the people; whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed, a democracy in a republic, a sovereign Nation of many sovereign States; a perfect union, one and inseparable; established upon those principles of freedom, equality, justice, and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes. I therefore believe it is my duty to my country to love it, to support its Constitution, to obey its laws, to respect its flag, and to defend it against all enemies. Written 1917, accepted by the United States House of Representatives on April 3, 1918. Differences? Needs? Obligations? Public declarations vs Loyalty Oaths? Swearing BY something (the Bible?) versus AFFIRMING in court? Religious loyalty over legal authority? And what might make a better National Anthem? "America the Beautiful"? "Stars and Stripes Forever"? (yeah, there are words) or the usual... Rote memorization vs questioning and understanding... OOOO my head hurts... Why do we expect our children to learn one and not the other?

May I mention the name John Woolman (1720-1772). Went so far in his distaste for slavery that he would only wear undyed clothing. Seems the usual dye in those days were made by slave labor in the Caribean. His "Journal" is good, if slow going, reading.

Trev: Thank you. Correction: It was late when I wrote that and I missed this: Make that 300 to 400 "Scouts... that had that 'problem' ". Decimals. Scouting is used by some faiths as 1) basis of their youth ministry 2) an addendum to their total ministry or 3) an outreach to the greater community. I have met (altho it is rare) Scout charter sponsors who are rather proprietary about the Scout program, feeling that it is THEIR program and hence one MUST be of THEIR faith to join. When I point out that other faiths sponsor Scout units and other faiths CAN be Scouts, it sometimes is a head shaker for them. It is true that some faith COs are specific in their membership requirements (see other threads) and they are within their rights to do so, but there are always less restrictive COs around. It is their loss when they limit their membership, but so be it. The BSA program is a model that others have copied and we know that such emulation is the highest form of compliment. So to some BSA is TOO restrictive and to some BSA isn't restrictive enough. If our standard is the Scout Promise and the Scout Law, then we must continue to point out to our boys and girls what it is they are asked to agree to and hope our example is sufficient to activate their conscience. So what is BSA about? Is it not inculcatating Self sufficiency, knowledge, confidence, skill in emergencies, the worth of cooperation, the need for leadership (however learned), all grounded and encouraged by a faith in a "higher power". I can give thanks for coming back from an adventure whole and unhurt and I can also give thanks for the skill of my surgeon for setting my broken bone. YiS

Outdoor and Adult stuff::: Need ::: Paper Match Book, Straight pin , Aluminum foil, Big paper clips. Cut out a small 2" by 2" piece of foil. Tear out a match. Place and hold straight pin on paper match so point is on match head and pin lies along paper stock. Carefully wrap foil around match and pin so match head is covered in two layers of foil and paper stock is only partially covered. Crimp around pin to make a channel. Carefully pull pin out. Make a Launch rack out of paper clip to hold up match rocket, head up, tail down. Angle about 45degrees up. Aim away from people, face, into open area outdoors. Light match and hold under rocket head. WHOOOOSH!

Make the "rocket"... Take TP tube, or paper towel tube. decorate wih fins, etc. Bend paper clips appropriately and tape to tube. Stretch smooth strings the length of your room. Place a looong balloon in the rocket tube and blow it up. Hold on to the open end. Hook paper clips over the strings, aiming the rocket tubes down the string. Let go the open ends. Stand back. Repeat as necessary.

*sigh* The only reason to question a Scouts religious belief is because it seems to be REQUIRED during the Eagle process. Scouting has to be self selective, so faith is personal and an avowed athiest will have an automatic problem promising to "do my duty to God", unless he thinks that that duty ,for him at least, is to NOT believe in him/it/her. I am again reminded of my time as a Chaplain at the 05Jamboree. I met at least 10 Scouts who had to tell me they "weren't sure about that God stuff." Extrapolating to my fellow chaplains, maybe 30 or 40 Scouts out of the 35,000 in attendance had that...problem. This is a problem? Everybody has to find their own place in this universe and accept/reject/invent a reason for existence. "Reverence to God and reverence for one's neighbour and reverence for oneself as a servant of God, is the basis of every form of religion. The method of expression of reverence to God varies with every sect and denomination. What sect or denomination a boy belongs to depends, as a rule, on his parents' wishes. It is they who decide. It is our business to respect their wishes and to second their efforts to inculcate reverence, whatever form of religion the boy professes." And BP's definition, I feel still rings true to me. I have no reason to force the issue, only to be available if the conversation turns that way. At a local Camporee, Our Troop hosted a new Troop sponsored by a Muslim Mosque. The lunch table was the scene of some realy good conversations among the Scouts. It was rducational for all. Don't we need a new category? "Religion and Chaplaincy" perhaps? *see another thread*.

Check with your DE. Parades are an ongoing possibility and it might be good to have an alternative ready for any Scout unit. I agree with the bad aspects of candy throwing. Adult leaders and Cubs can hand out Cub Scout labeled games or post cards with sports pictures on them or little game books (our council has big newsprint handouts with mazes and games in them,why not a smaller one?) Have fun!

Like an uncle of mine usta say, there's nothin' like a good belt... Seriously, seems like an improvement.

Speaking of unknown, inexperienced VPs, Howbout that Harry Truman?? Uh Huh Uh???

Scouts come in all flavors. I would make sure he gets all the opportunities he can. Not every Scout will LIKE or PARTICIPATE in every activity. That is his choice. I think there are enough possibilities in Scouting to include your boy. Let him find his own level. Camping is a big part, but not the end-all be-all, surely.

My sympathy for your loss. Ditto all the above "preventive" stuff. Have faith, like the folks previous have said, with a little media exposure, you will have lots of help replacing the lost material, and the thieves will have that much more trouble unlaoding the loot. Near trailer::: Make sure to have it painted in bright colors " CUB SCOUT PACK XYZ, Sponsor Org, Town State, Wolf Badge " on all four sides. Paint, NOT decals or vynil (too easy to remove). (vinyl?) Good Luck YiS

"wowser, (wows'-er), adj. obs. 1. Exemplary, marvelous, tending to be amazing; 2. Worthy of a young person's adulation or immediate attention; as in "thats a wowser of a helicopter, grandad, fer shur". See also Inspector Gadget. " Yes, if one quality of a person is desirable (bullet 50 yard passes), then one can ignore other, less desirable qualities (knock up as many females of the species as possible).

Tonite, I will gain "personal experience". It is the first Troop Committee Meeting of the year. We are a smallish troop (maybe 20 or so boys) and the dictum of 'the jobs get done by whoever shows up' is very true. The idea here, originally, is to start planning and laying out the years activities and assigning adult leaders/sponsors for them. I suggested to son (SPL, brag) that he might want to call SM and ask to come to the Committee meeting to talk about what the boys might want to do. His response, "aw, they won't let us do them". But he eventually called SM and SM said "sure, bring your ideas". Son was surprised and said so. So son and I have spoken about what Troop might do in the coming year. He often finds his 4H and Church youth group and camp more exciting and rewarding than Scouts. Altho I encourage his interest in the other things, I am dissappointed that he does not find more satisfaction from his Scout involvement. Too often, those schedules take precidence over Scout stuff. Possibilities that son and I have discussed: attendance at Canandian Jamboree instead of regular summer camp, canoeing, horseback riding overnight, target shooting at local indoor range, more trail hiking/camping. He also has a hard time believing that the other boys would be interested in some of his ideas, and he has reason to feel that way, judging from response to many of last years activities. But I tell him, he needs to put forth the things he would like to do. That all one can do is offer, if the SM and TCom support his ideas, then he can make it happen. But it won't happen if he doesn't ask.