SR540Beaver

I agree that the price needs to come down. Perhaps it is time to make a change and only let those cute little cubs sell popcorn. The gangly, awkward Boy Scouts could sell a different product that doesn't require door to door sales. This would lessen the competition and allow for different approaches that could work for both programs.

robbyynn, I didn't see you respond to a question asked earlier, but I might have missed it. The question was whether or not this was a den or pack campout. Either way, it sounds like there was poor planning. I don't know about your council, but our council usually has camping opportunities at the cub level each fall. This usually happens during each weekend of the month of October at two of our camp properties. One is a one nighter with cubs coming in Friday evening and leaving mid-day Saturday. Then a second group comes in Saturday evening and leaving mid-day on Sunday. The other camp property holds two nighters. The nice thing about these cub camps is that they have designed programs to keep the boys pretty busy thru most of the day with a campfire program at night. We also provide day camp and half week resident camps in the summer. Cubs can get plenty of camping experience in and not just be left to their own devices. Idle hands are the devil's workshop. You might check to see if your council or district have any programmed camping opportunities for the fall and urge the whole pack to take adavantage. Even if they don't, you should be able to attend as a family.

Do you need foil? No. Do people use it? Yes. Why? Here are my thoughts. Even with a well seasoned oven, it is entirely possible to get really, really burnt food stuck like super glue. This requires the already mentioned water in the pot and over a fire method of getting it to turn lose and scrubbing with all your might. Boys being boys, they don't always practice the best heat control continually taught be adults....the more coals, the better. Nor do they always practice the best cleaning techniques repeatedly taught to them. A scrub of a 1 on a scale of 1 to 10 is the same as a 10 to them. The easy out is to line the oven with foil so program time is not eaten up with blasting burnt food off. We can debate whether or not this is laziness or being innovative, adapting and overcoming all day long.

Gern, Simply charging the price of program and having mom and dad write a check is missing a main point of Scouting. A Scout is thrifty, he helps pay his own way. While we can debate the cost of popcorn, fundraisers are a way for a boy to learn to work and pay for himself and his boy run group independently of having his ATM/parents simply dispense more cash.

What Fuzzy said!

WOOHOO!!!! Our second weekend is over and it was a BLAST!!! I hope the participants had as much fun as the staff. They sure seemed to. We felt like both weekends were highly successful.

purce, I always cringe when WB is referred to as a mountain top experience because it sets up expectations and some folks go into it either expecting to much or being skeptical. For many it is, but it shouldn't be sould that way. I have less problems with it being sold as the pinnacle of scouter education because it is the top leadership course taught by BSA. But everyone takes something different from it. When I went thru, we had 1 person from our pack on staff and 4 scouters from the pack as participants. We got a lot from it and came back encouraging our fellow leaders to go. One rather cynical/skeptical fellow did and ended up TYPING a six page, single space critique of the course. He was looking so hard for the mountain top experience that he seemed to miss the whole point of the course. Woodbadge teaches much of the same things you can learn in course offered in the corporate world at much higher rates. The difference is that it is put into a scouting framework and you go because you want to instead of your boss telling you that you have no choice. For me personally, that made a huge difference in what I got out of the course by being somewhere I wanted to be and surrounded by other people passionate for scouting like I was. That was a big factor in my "mountain top" experience. It showed me what scouting can be. I got to spend 6 days with a diverse group of people who developed into a great team. It wasn't just about the material, it was about the whole expeience for me. The syllabus requires the CD to ask people who have played "the game" to sit back so people who have not played can learn from it. They were not trying to keep you from getting your money's worth. Instead, they wanted to make sure that your patrol mates got their money's worth. Think of going to a magician's show and shouting from the audience how each trick is done. It kind of ruins it or everyone else. Sure, you wanted to help your patrol, but would they have gotten the full impact of what the game taught if you did? WB is a great course and a great experience and a great tradition. Enjoy it and take what you can from it. Don't let the sales job influence you in what to expect.

My 13 year old son started with a xanga.com account and then moved to myspace because it was the more popular of the two. I don't have an issue with it......but I do monitor it. It has caused him to take an interest in how to code HTML and he ACTUALLY is picking up a book on his own and reading about it. Amazing what a boy is willing to do when he takes an interest in something. From what I understand, you can limit who has access to your myspace or have it wide open where anyone can get to it. Like I said, I monitor my son's myspace periodically. Some of his school mates have less than nice language and they tend to use words that are not allowed in our house. He catches a lot of it on his own and deletes it when it happens. I let him know when I see it and tell him I want it cleaned up. I have even told him not to give a few of his buddies access due to repeated inappropriate language. His other option is to shut his page down. I started to hit the submit button and had another thought. Please, please make sure you monitor their page. I click on the pages of some of my son's friends and am shocked at what I find....both boys and girls. I have to believe that their parents have no idea what they are up to. It is all in how it is used whether or not it is a bad thing.

Gern, My internet access is rather limited here at work. I did a Google on the DRP and even though I can't get to many of the sites listed, it appears that the DRP came about in 1917. Google it. Now, whether it was just stated in their literature or on the registration form, I have no idea.

E, Even though it isn't in the new syllabus, our council continues to hold the pre-course meeting. It is not mandatory. Most participants seem to enjoy it as it allows staff to answer questions important to them face to face. It also allows the staff to get a feel for the participants as you mentioned. I think that the pre-course meeting can make the difference for some people who are straddling the fence on showing up for the course or not. It seems to be a win win for us.

Ditto to Barry's comments. Perhaps your time would also be better spent out recruiting new participants for the WB course instead of taking it to save the course. WB for the 21st Century has allowed "old course" participants to staff up until now. I guess that was because there were no new course people to staff until recently. To staff now, you either had to of taken the new course or already staffed the new course if you were an old course participant. If you were old course and have not staffed 21st century, you can not staff without taking the course as a participant. I think this is a silly rule as do some other scouters I know. Old course folks will have to do staff development and can easily learn the new material without re-doing WB. But, thems the rules. I have two very good scouter friends who have been interested in staffing for the past several years and have thrown their name in the hat more than once. They are both very active scouters, well respected, tenured and both Silver Beaver receipiants. For whatever reason, they have both been overlooked for staffing. Now the rule comes down that they have to re-do WB if they want to staff. You can guess their answer to that.....and I don't blame them As a result, they will miss out on getting to staff and future participants will miss out on having a couple of great staffers. I do not understand why this rule has come down. The old course lent itself to abuse as a good old boys club. The new course requires 30% new staff and once a person has served as CD, they can no longer serve on staff. This busted up the good old boys club. Refusing old course folks to staff without taking the new course is just something I don't see the logic behind.

FScouter: "What's a wedgie?" They are those wonderful, crispy deep fried potato wedges they serve with fried chicken fingers at the mom and pop gas station/convenience store/deli's along the highway's. What? Ohhhhh, that kind of wedgie. Nevermind.

woodeagle, As far as I know, there isn't anything that would prevent you from taking the course again. I'm not sure what you would gain from it since you earned your beads in the old course and staffed the new course. While I am not working within a patrol as a staff member, I am experiencing all of the presentations and activities again just like the participants. Our CD has decided not to have staff work tickets, but heck, most of us do "tickets" all the time anyway. I've already got my beads and as a staffer I'm seeing the course again. I can't think of a reason to do it as a participant again......but that is just me.

I've known a few home schooling families and boys. I have nothing against them if that is what they want to do. It has been my experience that these families are usually over achievers with extremely high standards for their children to live up to. Again, their choice. I think a written troop policy is a bit of overkill. I think allowing it on a rare occasion....depending on what the program was earlier in the day.....would be good as long as boys don't come to expect it. If they have been on their best behavior and are all doing well in their patrols and in advancement and actively participated in whatever the campouts program is, sure why not. I think it would be better to let folks know up front so you don't catch flak on the back side. I will say that I don't think our SM would ever do this...and he is a HUGE football fan of one of our state college teams. He gets antsy about boys bringing chairs to camp and sitting around and doing nothing. They can do that at home. We have a planned program with a schedule designed by the PLC for every campout. The adults are taking their valuable time to get the boys to the outing and facilitating the program and he doesn't want to see them sitting. I think he would have problems with listening to a game too. Heck, I know he would. My suggestion, do it once a year if at all as a deserved treat and let people know that it will happen.

Acco, You failed to identify the author.

GNX, Try staffing the course and having to show up on either Monday night or Tuesday morning. We eat twice the good food the participants do from Friday thru Sunday. I am doing Weight Watchers and had lost 30 lbs before going. I was worried what kind of "damage" I had done. When I went in for my weigh in a week later, I only had a 1.6 lbs gain. I was a happy Beaver.

My one gripe with Scouting is knowing who to contact at a higher (region or national, not district or council) level with ideas or concerns. It has always appeared to me that they are fairly well insulated from the lowly volunteers. Back in the day when Bob White was around, he always seemed to have an inside track to national and knew things that no one else seemed privvy to. I don't recall him ever sharing how he did, just the impression that he did. I know he attended and taught classes at Philmont and possibly had served on some committees or boards at the region and national level, so he had resources that others don't. If you go to the national site, you won't find anyone's name or a division that they work for. There is a mail address, a general e-mail address and a general switchboard number. That is it. Just how does info from the unit level flow upstream? Anyone ever play the old gossip game where you whisper a message around a circle. By the time my idea makes it to someone at national (if it ever does), does it even resemble what I said? Probably not. Just how does national keep an ear to the ground?

"To a degree Boy Scouts itself is an icon. " As is that dreaded, out of date, dorky Scout uniform. Watch the body language of most people when they see a skater or Goth as opposed to a boy in His Scout uniform. I've seen many, many faces and eyes light up when Scouts walk thru the door on drink/potty stops coming and going on campouts. I can't say the same for the kids tearing up property with their skateboards and graffiti. The dorky uniform is an icon as much as the term "Boy Scout" is. But we'd have more Scouts in they got nose studs for rank instead of patches.

I know that someone around here wants to do away with the outdated icons such as wolves, ravens, eagles, etc. I hate to disappoint them, but I've seen some pretty clever patrol names. Take any animal patrol badge, turn it on it's back and it becomes the roadkill patrol. I'm pretty sure BP didn't have a roadkill patrol in any of troops he worked with. I've seen the atomic frogs, flaming arrows and nuclear moose too. Kids are pretty creative and as long as they keep it clean, I've not seen too many adult leaders unwilling to let them name their own patrols. I guess we could start having companies buy naming rights to camps like they do with sports arenas. Philmont could becone the Nextel High Adventure Base. Maybe Seabase could become the Carnival Cruise Lines Seabase. We could get Nike to design new uniforms with their swoosh on it and we could replace patches with sponsor patches just like NASCAR. Sweet!!!! That would draw the kids in!!!

Beavah, Best practices. Take what is working, duplicate it and tweak it for your environment. A given unit's success has a reason for its success and a given unit(s) failure has a reason for its failure. Our troop does nothing unique with the BSA program to be a success. We simply follow the program. What works for us can be mass produced. The majority of units who are being less than successful are the ones who are either don't know the program, don't understand it or are trying to reinvent the wheel. BSA offers a framework that can be tweaked for any given environment.

Brian, While some responses have been less than friendly, consider your own actions. You've come here and started multiple threads that bascially say the same thing over and over. That is known as spamming in the message board world and isn't looked on too kindly. Also, you are looking for responses and then arguing with the responses. People such as myself have provided you kind answers that you are choosing to ignore. I don't remember which of your threads I posted under, but I told you how successful our troop is. It is successful because we take time to implement the program AS designed and let the boys lead it. That is what BSA INDEED teaches. When the boys lead, the program is relevant regardless of the external trappings. There is little to save, but much to implement. Boy led still is and always has been relevant to "today" or "yesterday's" youth just as it will be 40 years from now. BP called scouting a game with a purpose. Boys learn to be better men without even realizing it by having FUN. When boys lead within the framework of scouting, they have fun. Don't fix what ain't broke. Just use the program as designed and get out of the boy's way.

OK fellow scouters, enough is enough. I too have my own issues with BrianBuf's approach to saving scouting. However, I found it entirely possible to comment without getting ugly and nasty. I'm unfamilar with the points of the scout law that says a scout is rude, cranky, mean, etc. There is a way to disagree without being unscoutlike. Some of you guys owe Brian an apology and you know who you are. Keep your punches above the belt please.

BUT, BUT, BUT....fourty years ago.....we always did it that way!!!

Brian, With all due respect, maybe you are looking for trouble where it doesn't exist rather than thinking that people are sticking their heads in the sand. Scouting occurs at the unit level. The troop I serve is 45 years old. Last year, we had 40 to 45 scouts on the roster. In February/March, we crossed over 20 Webelos. Every single new boy went to summer camp and has already earned Tenderfoot and are well on their way to 2nd Class. I believe our current roster sets at 63. We just did Webelos Woods this past weekend and had 20 Webelos visit who are possibly interested in joining our troop. Why are we successful? Well, we are boy led. We have some traditional outings such as our Turkey cookout in November where we dig a 30 foot long, 4 foot deep and 4 foot wide pit to cook an army of turkeys and invite all of our family members out for a Thanksgiving dinner. Beyond that, the boys choose their monthly activity and where it will be held. A boy is assigned along with an adult mentor to plan each outing down to the minute. We have attended the same outstanding out of council summer camp for the last 3 years. The boys expressed a desire to change camps. We obtained info on every summer camp from each surrounding state and gave it to the boys to use in choosing a new camp. They ended up choosing the same camp for a 4th year because it can't be beat. Earlier this year, we had 4 adult leaders get BSA climbing training and purchased about $2,000 in climbing equipment. Why? The boys wanted to climb and they wanted to climb on more than the towers in camp. The climbing outings are some of the most popular we do....althought we have great attendance at all of our outings. Our troop does a high adventure trip each year. This summer, we sent two crews to Northern Tier where they had a blast. I know because my 13 year old son was in one of the crews. During our annual planning a few months ago, the boys asked to add a spring break ski trip into the mix in addition to summer camp and the annual high adventure trip. It will be considered as a troop activity rather than the monthly outing. The boys decide and the adults facilitate and mentor. Everything we do is within the program delivered by the BSA and within the G2SS. We are having a blast because we choose to follow the program. I'm not sure what it is you think needs to change. Any troop out there can duplicate what we are doing and get the same results. All they need to do is get trained, use the program as designed and get out of the boys way once they open the door for them.

I don't know what you are drinking Fuzzy, but I'd like to know where I can purchase a bottle. A side note.....we are under a burn ban here in OK due to dry conditions. Our campfire during the first weekend of WB was indeed plugged in. Now that I think about it, we were in the middle of a field, far from any buildings and I have no idea where they ran the extension cord from. Perhaps it was battery powered. Hmmmmm?