SR540Beaver

Aidan, Sorry, but saying, "because I said so" really doesn't count. Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling you a liar. It is just that you need to be able to prove and support your claims if you want them to be taken seriously. If this were a debate in a school classroom, you'd lose for not being able to cite references to back up your arguments. I agree with others about the good the ACLU does do. I challenge everyone to google up your state ACLU chapter and take a look at the cases they have taken on. Some might surprise you. Lets keep in mind that the ACLU has defended folks like Jerry Falwell and Rush Limbaugh in the past. Why? Because their civil rights were being denied by the government. That is what the ACLU exists for. While you might not like every case they take on, be glad that they exist and that they are blind to popular opinion and take cases based purely on rights violations.

Brent, Where does the buck stop in your view? Did any of the people you quoted take us to war? Regardless of their statements on WMD's, did they push the button or did they believe their were other ways to accomplish the goal? The responsibility for going to war rests with one man and one man only regardless of how you attempt to deflect the fact.

Brent, Just to address one of your points. Kind of like Paul Harvey says, and now the Rest of the Story. http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2274910.php Only by lowering standards, increasing bonuses and putting more recruiters on the streets was the Army able to meet its goal, he said. The other services also had problems and needed more incentives. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101000131.html The U.S. Army recruited more than 2,600 soldiers under new lower aptitude standards this year, helping the service beat its goal of 80,000 recruits in the throes of an unpopular war and mounting casualties. The recruiting mark comes a year after the Army missed its recruitment target by the widest margin since 1979, which had triggered a boost in the number of recruiters, increased bonuses, and changes in standards..... About 17 percent of the first-time recruits, or about 13,600, were accepted under waivers for various medical, moral or criminal problems, including misdemeanor arrests or drunk driving. That is a slight increase from last year, the Army said. Of those accepted under waivers, more than half were for "moral" reasons, mostly misdemeanor arrests. Thirty-eight percent were for medical reasons and 7 percent were drug and alcohol problems, including those who may have failed a drug test or acknowledged they had used drugs.

Merlyn, Sorry buddy....I'm one of the few aroud here who give you the benefit of the doubt, but I ain't playing your little game today. Besides, mk9750 asked us to discuss his issue, not to argue the bur under your particular saddle that does not address his problem. I'll respect that from this point on and would ask that you do to.

Merlyn: "...not all atheists would say that they are 100% certain that no gods exist." Then they would be incorrectly identifying themselves as atheists. An atheist denies the existence of a God. mk9750, Even though the boy said that the hardest law for him to follow is "reverence", he did not say he does not follow it at all. Is he respectful of the beliefs of others? Does he interupt or ignore religious observances such as saying grace before a meal? The law of reverence goes beyond personal belief in scouting to include how we treat the belief of others. Many kids want to spend every penny they get their hands on. In a BOR he might say that he finds Thrifty the hardest law to follow because he loves to spend money. OK. He has an area of the law he needs to improve on. Same for reverent. Even though he is 17 and too smart for his own good, I'd hate to think that I still operate on my own personal view of the world at 17. Lots of things have changed with experience and age. I'm more concerned with the 45 year old adult who has decided that no God exists and wants to be a Scout leader than I am a 17 year old boy who is in the early to mid stages of trying to sort the world out.

Merlyn, Actually, it does not say that. Here is what it says: Q. What allows the Boy Scouts of America to exclude atheists and agnostics from membership? A. The Boy Scouts of America is a private membership group. As with any private organization, Boy Scouts retains the constitutional right to establish and maintain standards for membership. Anyone who supports the values of Scouting and meets these standards is welcome to join the organization. The question didn't ask "why do", but asks "what allows". Semantics? Maybe, but there is a difference. Also, the answer does not speak specifically to athiests and agnostics, but is a broader answer that the BSA is a private membership group that has the constitutional right to set standards for membership.

An agnostic and an atheist are apples and oranges. I've been an evangelical Christian for the last 42 years of my 49. My degree is in religion from a Southern Baptist University. There have been times where I have questioned the existence of God. It is a normal part of being human. This boy has not declared that there is no God, just that he does not see proof that God exists and therefore finds the law of reverence the most difficult to keep. I do call that being trustworthy. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/agnostic agnostic: 1. a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience. 2. a person who denies or doubts the possibility of ultimate knowledge in some area of study. Word History: An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist. The term agnostic was fittingly coined by the 19th-century British scientist Thomas H. Huxley, who believed that only material phenomena were objects of exact knowledge. He made up the word from the prefix a-, meaning without, not, as in amoral, and the noun Gnostic. Gnostic is related to the Greek word gnsis, knowledge, which was used by early Christian writers to mean higher, esoteric knowledge of spiritual things hence, Gnostic referred to those with such knowledge. In coining the term agnostic, Huxley was considering as Gnostics a group of his fellow intellectualsists, as he called themwho had eagerly embraced various doctrines or theories that explained the world to their satisfaction. Because he was a man without a rag of a label to cover himself with, Huxley coined the term agnostic for himself, its first published use being in 1870. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist atheist: a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Pete, Congratulations! I just finished my first (hopefully there will be more) staffing experience a few weeks ago. Staffing is as much fun, if not more than being a participant. Every position is hard work, but TG requires a lot of prep as you will spend more time with the participants and do more presentations than any other position. But you'll have a blast doing it. While we had info on every participant, the patrol make up was not finalized, nor did we know which patrol we would have until the Wednesday evening before the participants began arriving on Thursday. SR-540 Beaver SR-756 Owl Troop Guide SR-??? ?????????

Brian, Instead of reinventing the successful model of scouting, perhaps you should take a look at alternative programs that might be more to your liking. They are fine programs, but have never met with the same levels of success that scouting has. All are youth programs of the different branches of the US military. They are coed and the youth wear actual military uniforms. They have educational programs akin to merit badges, summer experiences akin to going to summer camp, meetings akin to troop meetings and rank advancement. Civil Air Patrol http://www.cap.gov/ Mission Statement To serve America by performing Homeland Security and humanitarian missions for our communities, states, and nation; developing our countrys youth; and educating our citizens on the importance of air and space power. Young Marines http://www.youngmarines.com/ Mission Statement The mission of the Young Marines is to positively impact America's future by providing quality youth development programs for boys and girls that nurtures and develops its members into responsible citizens who enjoy and promote a healthy, drug-free lifestyle. Motto Strengthening the lives of America's youth. Young Marine Obligation From this day forward, I sincerely promise, I will set an example for all other youth to follow and I shall never do anything that would bring disgrace or dishonor upon God, my Country and its flag, my parents, myself or the Young Marines. These I will honor and respect in a manner that will reflect credit upon them and myself. Semper Fidelis. Young Marine Creed 1. Obey my parents and all others in charge of me whether young or old. 2. Keep myself neat at all times without other people telling me to. 3. Keep myself clean in mind by attending the church of my faith. 4. Keep my mind alert to learn in school, at home or at play. 5. Remember having self-discipline will enable me to control my body and mind in case of an emergency. Sea Cadets http://www.seacadets.org/public/ Mission Statement "...through organization and cooperation with the Department of the Navy, to encourage and aid American youth to develop, train them in seagoing skills, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance and kindred virtues."

Not to change the subject, but we had two LDS men on our staff and several LDS members as participants. They received permission to attend our regular Friday morning thru Sunday evening schedule. The staffers told me that since it was in support of their called role as Scout leaders, it wasn't a problem that they be away on Sunday.

Gonzo, I am not a forum moderator, but like you I am a Scouter. I would respectfully remind you to keep the Scout Oath and Law in mind when responding to other posters.

Dan, I forgot to add...... BEAVERS RULE!!! Also, as emb021 said, our council has an annual WB reunion the last Saturday in January and we have a silent auction of donated items to help fund the WB scholarship.

Dan, I went thru WB back in the fall of 2003 when I was involved in Cubs. Our CM was on staff for the course and we had 3 other leaders go thru the same WB course with me. It was after we returned from WB that the committee discussed and voted on helping to pay 50% of the cost of WB if the funds were available. It just depends on the individual unit and what they want to do. some will pay it all, some will pay a portion and some will pay none. Personally, I think it is an excellent investment if a unit is financially able as it is in the best interest of the unit to have WB trained leaders. Keep in mind, many Councils have scholarship funds to help pay for WB if cost is an issue for a participant.

Brent, I'll agree that how a party handles its bad apples is important. However, more important is how a party goes about running the business of the country. The Dems held power for years and had the Repubs nipping at their heels about what a lousy job they did of it. They finally convinced enough voters of their claims to get their wishes and gained power only to squander it and abuse it even more bady than the Dems had. Unfortunately, the pendulum will always swing back and forth between the two parties with little real difference in how things get done between the two. The Repubs have been in power long enough now to effect some real change that would make some real differences. What are their accomplishments to date? Little to nothing. What is their battle cry? "If you think we are bad, the Dems will be worse." Yet, the Repubs have outspent, earmarked and special interest'ed the Dems into amateur status.

"I don't see how either party can claim to be the party of moral or ethics." Party politics is about getting and maintaining power and has little to nothing to do with morals or ethics. As a conservative leaning independent, I get to freely criticize both sides and don't have a "side" to pull for. Of course, the majority of moral and ethical candidates that I'm usually pulling for in an election never get a nod in the primary process because of all the party folks looking to gain or maintain power.

CNY, We have 63 boys in our troop and 5 patrols. We tend to run our patrols large due to boys missing for football, band, family, etc. If we have patrols of 6 or so and 3 or 4 don't happen to show up, that does leave all of the work on the couple who do show up. By running with larger patrols of 10, even if half don't show up, you still have a decent number to get things done. My son is a PL and he has a patrol with many boys who have competing outside activities. Last month, the SM decided to have my son's patrol combine with another smaller patrol "for cooking purposes" only. He really, really dislikes combining patrols and said at the time that nothing good usually comes of combining two patrols. That is why he limited their joint activities to cooking and cleaaning only. It was a total disaster that ended with one kid having a SM conference and being removed from his position of responsibility. I won't bore you with the details. This month's campout was this past weekend. My son's patrol only had 3 attending. We did not combine them with anyone else and it was much better for everyone involved. Yes, it meant that they all shared in cooking and cleaning at each meal, but so what? That is part of scouting. If a boy will skip a campout simply because he might have to participate in cooking or cleaning more than once, he probably won't last in scouting long term anyway. My advice is that you use the boy led/patrol method regardless of troop or patrol size. A troop I used to serve only had enough boys for one patrol and we still expected them to cook and clean for themselves instead of treat them like Cubs and do it for them. The one issue with a small patrol is food costs. The campouts run $10 per boy for food. That meant my son's patrol had $30 to work with. Even when you buy generic and in the smallest quantity possible, you might have enough food for 4 to 5 scouts instead of the 3 who are attending the campout. Instead of having $40 to $50 to work with, they only had $30. They ran over by $10. The SM fully expected this to happen based on previous experience. The solution to this in our troop is that any money left over from food purchases go to the SM along with the reciepts for the food. He holds this to reimburse patrols that go over due to small size. If you have all 10 in the patrol show up, they have $100 to spend on food and may only end up spending $75 or $80. It all evens out in the end. They could be the patrol with only 3 showing up next month.

yellow_hammer: "There are many flavors of conservative. Some just want a little more sanity in the world, just want to slow down the pace of change. Others want to correct the insanity that has plagued us for decades and point out the absurd logic of the left. Ann is the latter type." Sorry, but Coulter is not an intellectual like a Pat Bucahnan or George Will and brings nothing to the table in the way of ideas. She is an entertainer who uses insults and invective. Would you want your daughter to act like her? Tell me how these kinds of typical Coulter statements point to absurd logic on the left and seeks to correct the insanity that has plagued us for decades? Without affirmative action, African-American Rep. Maxine Waters (D-CA): couldn't get a job "that didn't involve wearing a paper hat." "If Gore had been elected president, right now he would just be finding that last lesbian quadriplegic for the Special Forces team." "There are a lot of bad Republicans; there are no good Democrats." "The ethic of conservation is the explicit abnegation of man's dominion over the Earth. The lower species are here for our use. God said so: Go forth, be fruitful, multiply, and rape the planet--it's yours. That's our job: drilling, mining and stripping. Sweaters are the anti-Biblical view. Big gas-guzzling cars with phones and CD players and wet bars -- that's the Biblical view." "They're [Democrats] always accusing us of repressing their speech. I say let's do it. Let's repress them. Frankly, I'm not a big fan of the First Amendment." "Would that it were so! ... That the American military were targeting journalists." "My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times building." I could go on, but I think you can see the pattern here. Instead of pointing to absurd logic, she just throws chunks of meat to the folks who like to be hand fed "information". There is nothing there that speaks to the pressing needs or problems in our nation. She provides no solutions. She just makes absurd statements that she knows will get her name in the press and line her pocketbook a little more. Conservatives should be ashamed to be lumped into the same label with her. I am.

Gonzo1: "I understand the "timing" of the information release is womehwat suspect also. That is, someone knew about this a few years ago and did nothing until now, a month before the election. Why would the reporter wait? To screw up the election." Have you also noted that GOP leaders are asking for a probe of Sandy Berger taking papers from the archive. Note that he pleaded guilty to doing it last year and was fined. Why would GOP leaders be asking for a probe and why would the news be reporting it this close to an election? To screw it up? To delect from attention to Foley? It works both ways and one side accusing the other of dirty tricks is like the pot calling the kettle black.

SueM, We ran the song both times WITH pictures of the participants rather than the stock BSA pictures. Staff watched it thru the first time and then quietly slipped out of the dining hall where it was playing and went to Gilwell. The SPL and I believe the CD led the participants down to Gilwell with the staff all in place waiting for them.

E, Why yes, we Beavers are full of it......IT being Scouting and WB pride!

Pete, Darn it, I thought I was the only awesome Troop Guide in the history of WB!!! Say it ain't so!!!

My son had the cheaper versions of airsoft guns for the last year or two. He wanted one of the nicer/more expensive models that shoot more accurately this past summer and even spent over $100 of his own money to purchase a model that looks like an AK-47. I wasn't spending my money to buy it. I also wasn't financing his hobby ongoing. He found communities just like this one on the internet and joined them. There were local groups (well, within the state) that held events where "clans" played against each other. He was disappointed that I didn't support him and take him to any of these events. They were "night ops" out in the country with kids from around 13 like him to adults in their 20's. First, I'm not taking him to play at night with adults and second, I'm not sleeping in my truck all night while he is running around in the woods instead of sleeping. I know he was disappointed with the old man, but I think he also understood my concerns. He has always been fairly mature and reasonable for his age. He still gets it out occasionally and plays out in the yard with many of the other boys in the neighborhood. Airsoft is huge in Asia where paintball has caught on in the US. You can find paintball course thruout the US and some cater to Airsofters. But for the most part, Airsofters have to find places and play where they can. Airsoft guns, unlike paintball guns look like the real deal and would be easily mistaken for real guns by law enforcement or average citizens. Those who play with any kind of non-lethal recreational gun should employee the same safety standards as a regular gun.

Gee, I don't remember either of you guys in the patrol I was Troop Guide for, but thanks for the compliments!!! I'm glad you had great WB participant experiences. It was great from the staff side as well. Our Course Director just sent out e-mail to the staff with evaluation info and it sounds like we pleased the participants this go round.

yellow_hammer: "Hard truths are hard to take." Did you actually type that in reference to Coulter with a straight face? I consider myself conservative and my eyes will NEVER, EVER, NEVER read any of the tripe she produces. Conservatives should be as ashamed of Coulter as liberals should be of Michael Moore. Both of them are laughing all the way to the bank and are just opposite sides of the same coin.

Oh good grief!!! Buy you guys books and send you to school and you still don't understand the use of foil!!! Yes, foil tears if the person serving the food treats the DO like it has no foil in it and digs in with all his might to scrape the bottom of the barrel. Kind of like putting on Playtex gloves to keep your hands dry and then sticking your arms into the dishwater up to the elbows. Guess what is going to get wet? While not needed, a properly lined DO will not leak and won't tear if you don't serve like a linebacker.