SR540Beaver

Chippewa29, My son played competitive baseball instead of doing Cubs. He joined as a Webelos 1. In baseball, if you didn't show for practice or a game (unless because of vacation) you sit the bench. It was how our coach enforced participation. They were a team that depended on each other and if they expected to win, everyone had to be there and do their part everytime. I remember a whole lot of yelling at boys that went on too. Sadly, I participated in some of that. Scouting is just different. With baseball, the goal is immediate. Making the play and winning the game today. Scouting is long term. Tell a kid he can't go on a campout because he isn't active and he'll probably be gone before too long. I'm with you. I want them there for every meeting, every outing, every service project, running for leadership positions and advancing thru the ranks. I think the best you can do is to do some of what our troop (and others I'm sure) does. We always participate in Webelos Woods. We often hold an outdoors Pin Fair (think Merit Badge Fair) for Webelos in the district. We attend a function called Oktoberfest in the district that is a night of fun for Webelos to meet troops. We also are active in having boys help with the Cub day camps and fall family camping weekends. On top of that, we welcome Webelos Dens who want to camp with us. We do hold an orientation at crossover time where we discuss with parents what our troop's philosophy is and how we run our program. Basically we tell them what our "expectations" are of the boys and parents. We don't turn anyone away and we do have boys drop out. But we do try to make them aware up front of what they are getting themselves into so there are no surprises. Something else we do is to use the New Scout Patrol for the first 9 months or so that a boy crosses over. We don't integrate 4 new boys into a patrol with 4 other boys and then have them drop out or be on again off again and affect the patrol in a negative manner. We integrate them into existing patrols at the end of 9 months. By then you have pretty well lost any who are not going to stick around and again not have a negative affect on the patrols. One other bit of advice, run your patrols at about 10 members instead of 6 or 8. If you only have half your boys show up, they will still have enough present to function well as a patrol.

SSScout, Well said. I think you expressed some points better than I did in my first post in this thread. The mom's approach seemed almost like a checklist of things for raising her child. Almost like those parents who see BSA as Babysitters of America.....but she was a Cub Leader according to the story. Children are sponges and soak up all sorts of stuff. Because they are around their parents so much, they soak up much of their parent's attitudes and habits....whether we want them to or not. The things that mom and dad make time for and treat important are the things that Billy and Susie will find important in life too. While packing them off to get a little education is never a bad thing, it does not mean they will view that particular education important if mom and dad never have. I appreciate parents wanting their children to be well rounded, but you have to have a certain level of involvment with them and the activity to drive the point home too. Good post!

Indoctrination. It is one of those words that has developed an ugly persona over time. It conjures up images of communists, Islamo-fascist and cult leaders. Allow me to give you my views from a more "traditional" Judeo-Christian perspective about religious "training" of your children. We can not separate ourselves from our ehtnicity or our nationality. We can not separate ourselves from our gender. There are just things that we are. Yes we often have choices, but some choices choose to accept certain things as truth and to not depart from it. How many of us would look at morals and ethics and say that we want to expose our children to all of the various facets of morals and ethics and let them choose a path? Choose a path they will.....they are after all human. But as children, do we decide to let them engage in sexual activity, curse, steal, lie, etc.? No, we were raised to be moral and ethical people by our parents who were raised that way by their parents and on and on. For me, my faith is the same way. To me, I have to ask what kind of parent I would be if I exposed my son to all of the moral choices out there and all of the religious choices out there. I was Baptist first because that is what my parents were and that is the way I was raised. At 5 or 12 I couldn't really care less and wasn't ready to consider what I wanted to BE. It was my senior year of college when I met a girl of a different faith that began my journey of exploring my faith and other faiths and what I beleived and why I believed what I believed. I stayed and remain a Baptist after doing some serious soul searching and exploration. That was what was right for me. I do believe there is only one God and that there is only one way to Him. I do believe in an afterlife where you either spend eternity in His presence or NOT......which isn't such a good thing. Just like teaching my child table manners or not to steal, I would be remiss in my duties if I didn't teach him the faith of his Fathers. I see it as my responsibility. A day will come when he is older, wiser and more mature where he will question things and explore and decide for himself. Right now as a child, it is my responsibility to raise him by our family standards. I accept the Bible as the word of God. The scriptures teach me that what I'm doing is right. I was going to post some scriptures, but I won't bore you with them. just know that I take them more seriously than the Oath and Law we consider non-negoiatable when working with the boys. None of what I said is meant to be a judgement or condemnation on any of my Scouter brothers here. I just wanted to convey why what I consider a casual approach to "religious training" is something I have difficulty accepting. To each his own. I respect each person's right to chose their path. For me, I must point my son down what I consider the 'right" path until he is his own man and old enough to navigate on his own. Bless each of you.

Gee.....I don't know! I certainly wouldn't have a problem with a school denying NAMBLA in the school while allowing the local little league association in. Some organizations make sense and some don't when it comes to kids.

My son started 8th grade this week. He started as a Webelos 1 in 4th grade. His elementary school used to allow fliers to be sent home with the kids up until the time he started scouting. I know because we used to get a boat load of fliers all the time and because we wanted to do some Cub fliers at the beginning of 5th grade. The policy changed so that you had to go thru the school district administration building far in advance and get approval. It became too much of a hassle for most people. I believe the real reason it was done in our district was because people were getting tired of getting "junk mail" in the kids bags and the teachers needed to concentrate on teaching instead of distributing fliers into multiple backpacks on a daily basis. I will say that the schools are very open to allowing organizations in to recruit during open house the day before school opens. Our Pack always had a table at 3 different schools.

orennoah, As "cool" as it might be for a boy to go to Jambo and be able to come home and tell everyone that he got to to see the President live.....it just isn't worth it. Schedules had been set, there was a show to put on, the President was coming, etc., etc., etc. that caused them to make the poor decision they did to mush on marching 40,000 boys shoulder to shoulder in extreme heat on blacktop in the middle of the afternoon for a program that didn't start until evening. The President's security needs trumped everything else. I do understand the need for the security. But AP Hill in the summer and the President's secuirty needs are not very compatible. In the future, the President needs to tape a video address and the opening show can be a much more leisurely handled program where boys don't have to eat dinner at 2:30 in the afternoon. There were three doctor/scouters from our council who served on medical staff at Jambo. All three told me the same thing you said about urging to cancel the show.

OGE, Yes, but did it have all the chemicals, preservatives and fillers that MickeyD's uses? This spring, my son convinced his patrol to try a simple recipe dad uses at home. I cut up potatoes and onions into bite size chunks with some salt and pepper and put it inthe bottom on a cast iron skillet we have. Then I cut up smoked sausage and/or brats into bite size chunks and put on top. Put the lid on the skillet and put in the oven at about 400 degrees for 45 minutes to an hour and you have a delicious dinner. His patrol did it with a dutch oven over coals. 10 to 15 minutes of prep and sit around the patrol site chit chatting for an hour and they were set. Every single patrol plus the adults were coming over to check it out.

I love my dog. My dog loves me. What can be better than that?

I'm sorry, perhaps I'm dense. Don't we already have one thread going on this subject? When I first saw this thread, I didn't equate it to the other thread and saw it as more of a hypothetical question. Packwife, do you know for a fact that the SM is planning to suspend your son or is this just an assumption. You asked the question of how bad of an offense does a scout have to commit to get suspended and everyone started responding to what happened in the other thread. Are the two related? Is his supension a known or an assumption? My simple answer to the simple question you asked at the beginning of this thread is that it will vary from troop to troop and leaders to leaders. We had a boy pull a knife at summer camp. It was dealt with at camp, the boy had to call home and explain what he did to his parents, no one went home and the slate was wiped clean when we got home. I won't bore you with the details of why it was handled that way, but a lot of it depended on a number of circumstances. We had an ASM serving as summer camp SM and I'm 98% sure that how it was handled would have been different if the SM were there. I know exactly how it would have been handled in another troop I used to work with. So, I say it depends from troop to troop and leader to leader. Do you get a say? You get to express your opinion and you get to vote with your feet. But no, you don't get to determine how the unit is run unless you are an active registered member. Now, with all that said, I would have handled it at camp, left it at that and not rehash it when the troop gets back together in the fall. I especially wouldn't consider suspension for dropping a single F-bomb. Now, it could be the straw that breaks the camel's back if a boy has a vast colorful history to bad behavior. so again, it all depends.

The belief-o-matic was fun, but back to reality.....the attitude of the author concerns me as a person of faith. Let's forget for the moment that my faith is Christian, of the Baptist persuasion, Southern in particular. This could apply for almost anyone of any faith. Religious "training" or education is not something on a checklist for raising children. I guess it is good that she recognized religion might be important for her children, but how important and "why" comes into question when you consider her casual approach. Oh my, my child doesn't recognize who Jesus is, I guess I forgot to mention it somewhere along the line...guess I ought to find a church to drop him off for Sunday School while we go to brunch. Any "training" she gets for her child will be pretty meaningless at the worst or purely academic at best if the faith the child is being "trained" in is not modeled at home. If mom and dad don't go to church or practice a certain faith lifestyle, why would/should it be important to me? Mom and dad don't use table manners, why should I? Mom and dad cuss like sailors, why shouldn't I? What is the value in telling a child to do as I say, not as I do? Regardless of your wishes, guess which route they will end up taking. If religion doesn't play a part in her life, why does she see a need to get her children religious training? To what end? Is it kind of like teaching your kid how to do the waltz on the outside chance that he might be invited to a state dinner and ball someday?

1. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (100%) 2. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (98%) 3. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (83%) 4. Bah' Faith (81%) 5. Orthodox Quaker (76%) 6. Seventh Day Adventist (70%) 7. Eastern Orthodox (70%) 8. Roman Catholic (70%) 9. Liberal Quakers (69%) 10. Orthodox Judaism (67%) 11. Jehovah's Witness (66%) 12. Islam (63%) 13. Reform Judaism (56%) 14. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (54%) 15. Sikhism (53%) 16. Unitarian Universalism (52%) 17. Mahayana Buddhism (34%) 18. Theravada Buddhism (34%) 19. Neo-Pagan (33%) 20. Jainism (32%) 21. Hinduism (31%) 22. Nontheist (28%) 23. New Thought (27%) 24. New Age (25%) 25. Secular Humanism (22%) 26. Scientology (19%) 27. Taoism (19%)

Pack, One of my main complaints about our "liberation" efforts in Iraq is that true liberty is bought with your own blood and treasuer, not someone else's. If I give you a gift rather than you working hard and skimping and saving in order to buy it because you really, really want it, will you appreciate it as much? My belief is no, you won't. It cost you nothing. What has confounded me is the administration's inability and unwillingness to recognize that the middle eastern mindset, culture, traditions, customs and beliefs are polar opposites of ours. They simply don't think like us or value the same things the same way we do. Overthrow their government and set them up a democracy with free elections and what do you get? They elect radical, fundamentalist terrorist candidates to office. Wow! Big surprise there!!! It reminds me of a troop that is adult led instead of boy led. Gee guys, we keep coming up with all these cool outings, but no one will show up? Well duhhhh!!! You are trying to get the boys to do what YOU want them to do instead of what THEY want to do. Success will always be just out of your grasp.

Actually, I've always looked at scouting as fairly apolitical. The current "conservative" movement in the country has co-opted anything and everything traditional, patriotic and religious from mom and apple pie to scouting, the military and God and claimed them exclusively as their own. Not true. Liberal or Democrat does not equate to terrorist, atheist or traitor no matter how many times the radio, TV, columnists and book based pundits try to drill it into the American psyche. Look at the kids and parents in your troop. Can you honestly say they are all steroetypical, carbon copy, cookie cutter "conservatives". They certainly are not in our troop. Ours runs from one end of the spectrum to the other. Heck, one of the scouters in our old troop was a legitimate, honest to goodness old hippy. He had long hair, a long beard and missing teeth. His dream was to someday buy a sqaure mile of land to get away from it all and "do his own thing". I can only imagine what his main crop would have been.

The G2SS needs to have an exclusion clause for riding in the back of trucks for scouts who play with stripped kittys.

This happened on a trip with a prospective troop when my son was a Webelos 2. He burned his hand on a lantern while getting camp set up. He gets woozy when he is hurt. I told him to go sit in the truck and drink some water and I'd check on him in a little while. I hear my horn honk once or twice, but ignore it. A few minutes later he walks up to me and says, "dad, I was getting sick to my stomach and I tried to get out of the truck before I got sick". Tried is the key word here. I went from setting up camp to cleaning vomit out of my truck. Camping out in the woods does not lend itself to cleaning said material out of a vehicle very easily.

Pack, A little artistic license to make a point.

California, the land of fruits and nuts.

CC, What a great idea for a district wide event. It however sounds like a mini summer camp to me since each summer camp I've been to does both types of program. Each I've been to has some sort of new scout program to teach skills up thru 1st class and the camp also offers adult training during the week. But I do like the idea of the OA doing this at the local level.

OGE, Tsk, tsk, tsk! The mission statement was updated with Star Trek the Next Generation. To boldly go where no ONE has gone before. One must be politically correct in the 24th (?) century you know.

The problem with the adult mentoring is where are you going to get the adults to mentor other adults? We've already identified a problem area of adults having so much on their plate that they can't attend what is sometimes a one or two hour training. How are we going to find adultswho can take the time to travel from unit to unit and mentor adults who don't have time because they are working with the boys? One of the complaints you see here a lot is about the often non-existence of Unit Commissioners. My old district did a huge push a year or two ago to recruit and provide a UC for every unit. What ended up happening was UC's having 4 to 6 units to work with. Often these UC's were Cub leaders who had been in the cub program for a year or so that were serving as a troop UC. How the heck is someone new to cub scouts going to assist a troop? But.....every unit had a UC. Of course, these UC's all had unit, district or council postions to attend to as well and would end up burning out and quitting as a UC. I was asked to be a UC on a variety of occasions and my answer was a firm NO. I'm an ASM, that is what I do in scouting. That is the hat I wear. I'm not loading up on multiple jobs and doing each poorly. Obviously, mentoring is a fine thing......but it does not answer the question of where you are going to get mentors and how already pressed unit leaders will have the time to be mentored if they don't have the time to be trained. Mentoring will take longer.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with SPAM. If sliced correctly, you can shingle a house with the stuff. Eamonn might want to carry some on the boat to plug holes. My understanding is that you don't need to hang a bear bag in bear country if you'll just rub everything with SPAM as the bears won't touch the stuff.

jkhny, Like I said before, if it is keeping you up at night and seems to be enough to make a blood vessel pop, perhaps you should explore greener pastures. Scouting isn't the only game in town and you can vote with your feet. Take a look at Civil Air Patrol, Sea Cadets or 4-H for starters. I understand your feeling that one bad apple spoils the whole bunch. However, just because the guy next door is cheating on his wife, does not mean I have a bad marriage.

scoutldr, Thanks for the compliments. I'm just a small cog in a big machine and can't really take credit. I just try to make my little corner the best it can be. I'm on Woodbadge staff for our fall course. It is my understanding unless things change that our SE will come do one of the presentations. He was at the annual Woodbadge reunion back in January as a speaker and did a great job. BTW, he was in a full and correct uniform to boot. I like to think we have a good council. I do believe funds have been pretty tight in years past and the properties have not really gotten as much attention as they deserve. If you read the whole article, surveys have been conducted among the masses and plans are being drawn up for fundraising and upgrading. I've gotten to know a few of the movers and shakers at the council level and think we have a pretty good handle on what we are supposed to be doing and where we want to go. That is all I want JKHNY to realize. If I viewed scouting the way he did, I would have found something better in my community to join.

jkhny, I actually waded thru your rant. Every word of it. So, I now ask that you return the favor and read every word of the article I'm linking to. http://www.lastfrontiercouncil.org/scout-executive-0806.htm I'd like to know your reaction to it. It is a link to our SE's regular column he writes and this one deals with the council's goals over the coming years. I'd like for you to get a bigger picture view of scouting and realize that your specific experience isn't a reflection of scouting around the country. There are those of us who actually think we have a pretty good council and professional staff. Sure, we have our minor gripes and dislikes, but overall we think things are going pretty good. So, please do me the courtesy of reading my link and responding. It is the least you can do when you come here and post mile long rants.

Good Lord Kenk!!! WHY wait when you can have NEW gear today!!! Unless you just have a personal preference of aluminum over fiberglass, I'd probably only make the distinction for backpacking. If you are going to use it for car camping, why wait? My old car camping tent uses fiberglass poles and they have taken a multitude of abuse over the years that I'm not sure aluminum would have.