SR540Beaver

I think my point was lost. It had previously been stated that sports and band are required to wear a uniform because it is provided as opposed to being up to the individual purchasing it themself. My point was that even though my son's school provided the football uniform and gear (helmet, pads, etc), there was an expectation that the boy raise funds equal to the cost of said uniform and gear. So, in a sense it isn't provided.....yet it is still required. They don't get to go to the local sporting goods store and find a pair of bargain basement football pants to wear.

One of my son's best friends plays football for their high school. Brand new school last year. Nicest, biggest facility in the district. The place looks like a junior college instead of a high school. They pulled out all the stops. Each year we get a fundraising letter from the young man with a list of uniform parts and equipment parts to fund. Now, I have a feeling that the school provides the gear and uniform, but the boys are tasked with raising enough funds to cover the cost. I'm not sure how you would chalk that one up. Regardless of whether the school provides it and expects a boy to raise the money to recover costs or cover replacement, he is required to wear it.

Brent, I understand your point, I just don't think it is valid comparison. In our troop, we provide the tents. There is NOT an option for a boy to bring his own tent....even in grandma and grandpa got him one for Christmas and he really, really wants to bring it. If you are in our troop, you use the troop tents. That has nothing to do with how many hours we adults volunteer. Trust me, band teachers and coaches spend a lot of personal time off the clock supporting the band and team out of dedication rather than high pay. Volunteer hours isn't a reason for the band or team to wear the uniform.

Brent, You are comparing apples and oranges. Gear vs time. One of the draws for our troop is that we supply everything excpt personal gear. Tents, tarps, patrol boxes, cooking and eating gear, stoves, dutch ovens, lanterns, etc. are provided for youth and adults alike. The youth or registered adult needs to supply their uniform (we have a pre-owned selection to choose from), handbook, sleeping bag, flashlight, daypack, etc. My son is 16 and still wearing the same shirts we bought for the 2005 Jambo when he was 12. Yes, they swallowed him at the time. If you buy quality and take care of it, the personal gear bought for a boy will last his whole scouting career. That cost spread over time really isn't all that much. Scouting long term is really a pretty good bargain. All that being said, Scouting is as cheap or expensive as a person makes it. My son and I both went to Jambo in 2005 and will return in 2010. That alone will cost $10,000. Add in his trips to Northern Tier, Philmont and other high adventure trips, and you are looking at another $3,000 easily. But that was our choice to participate in those things. A scout with limited means wouldn't have to spend any of that money as those things are by choice.

Wonder bread, peanut butter and grape jelly it is then. If/when he gets tired of this for every meal on a campout, perhaps he will start eating.

We have 59 on our charter this year. We get 20 new scouts per year on average. All but a small handfull of new scouts have and wear complete uniforms. That small handfull are usually missing the pants. A full uniform is never stated as a requirement in our troop. We do however tell new prospects that we are a uniformed troop as is very evident when they visit with us or see us at a recruiting event. The culture exists and is self-perpetuating. To be out of uniform makes you stick out like a sore thumb.

Gern, How much of scouting is actually mandatory by written rule? Isn't the goal to get youth to decide to do the right thing for the right reasons rather than force them? If they are forced to advance, forced to camp, forced to wear a uniform, then what is the purpose of the program? What are they learning?

I understand and agree with your point Gern. That being said, does the band or sports uniform attract a youth to that program or is it the activity of the program that attracts them? I know as far back as when I was in high school in the 70's, the band kids hated wearing the geeky band uniforms and got made fun off. They loved band, just hated the uniform. Sports is a little different in that sport participants are seen as manly jocks and heroes and therefore their uniforms are more acceptable. But the bottom line is that it is the program in each instance that actually attracts. The uniform simply identifies the member as a participant in the activity.

So OGE, is CoL in for a trick or treat?

Ditto to jblake! People use the cost as an excuse to not uniform. Any unit worth it's salt is doing some sort of annual fundraiser. Even the kids who won't go out on their own and mow a lawn to earn the money can particpate in a fundraiser and make enough to purchase uniform parts. If we don't teach these concepts, how is a scout supposed to learn and put "thrifty" into practice? Why is it acceptable to skip over one method of scouting, but not the others? Is a uniform required? No. Is it implied? Yes, we are a uniformed movement. The uniform serves a purpose. If we are going to do this job, don't we have a responsibility to at least do it as correctly as possible? If we don't, what are we teaching the boys in our units?

We could say that all elements of the program are "optional", but is that the way we really want to do things? Each method serves a purpose in reaching the aims and it is helpful to employee each.

Like I said, mine is of good fit, quality and functionality. I like it. It is far, far better than the old uniform.

Ditto gwd. There has been much lamenting on these forums in the past about Scouters coming to the program without solid high adventure skills. We tend to base the view of the old days when SM's were our dad's who had served in the armed forces during WWII and Korea. They came by their skills out of necessity and survival more than a love of the outdoors. Many Boomers and beyond didn't have the experience our fathers did. Many people come to the program having never been a scout or an avid outdoorsman. But they can sure learn if they care and develop a passion and become very skilled practitioners and teachers.

I love the fit, quality and functionality of the new uniform. My one gripe is the elastic slide in the pants. They are darn near to keep up if you take your belt off. I'm thinking about marking mine when they are on with a belt and sew the two sliding panels together where they "fit" me. Beyond that, I love the new uniform.

Lisa, I understand and agree with your concerns about the digital material. I will say that it is maybe a single page of material in the syllabus in what is a 50 minute Communications presentation. It is mostly cautionary information that is needed.......as my three examples in a one week period pointed out. And all three of those examples were middle aged professional people who should have known better. I also agree that the presenter needs to know their stuff in this regard. The staff for our upcoming course are all on facebook and one of our chosen primary sources of communication is a private facebook group we set up that only we can access.

The digital section of the revised Communications presentation is much like the common sense stuff the handbook and MB's teach the youth. There is a question led discussion about who uses email, texting, blogs, facebook, twitter, etc. and the possible pitfalls and downsides of each. Then the presenter discusses a few important rules to remember. I'm not going to type the whole presentation, but the bullet points are: 1. The responsibility for anything you write is yours alone. 2. Be authentic. 3. Consider you Audience 4. Exercise Good Judgement 5. Respect Copyrights and Fair Use 6. Remember to protect Personal Information The details under those bullets is timely and wise. In the past week, I have personally seen three examples where this information would have been helpful with adult scouters. One example was where a scouter discovered emails between his wife and a man she was having an affair with. In his shock and anger, he decided to post the emails as status updates on his facebook account. A digital fight ensued between he and his wife thru facebook. This man and his wife were friends with a good number of council, district and unit scouters and scouts. After being contacted by a number of scouters, they cooled off, unfriended the scouts and deleted their posts. But the damage was already done. The other two examples were scouters posting personal religious and political opinions (in relation to their personal interpretation of traditional Scouting values) on the listserv email address that sends email to the whole troop and crew. I won't go into the details, but their views were not appreciated by folks who believed differently than the posters. The tool is primarily to diseminate information within the unit, not as an op-ed opportunity. Addressing the digital age is a smart move on the BSA's part in their training materials.

I've been to one roundtable since 2005. The main reason for that is that my son and I transferred to another unit that was in a neighboring district and we have to drive 20+ miles one way to get to our unit. There are weeks where I make that trip multiple times. We have good representation from our unit at roundtable each month, so I choose not to "make the trip" if I don't have to. That being said, when I was in the district where we actually reside, I attended each month as it was 2 miles from my house. I never got anything out of the breakout session for either the Cub or Boy Scout side. I stayed for the opening and announcements and a little parking lot talk, but usually exited for breakout. What would I want to see.......relevant breakouts.

Wood Badge is what the BSA likes to refer to as "program neutral". Even though BSA uses the trappings of a Boy Scout Troop and Patrols for the structure of the program, WB is not a Boy Scout program. It is (was) adult leader training that crosses across Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Varsity and Venturing and includes any and all registered positions thru professionals. The change now is to allow Venturing youth between 18 and 21 who are not dual registered as an adult in Cub Scouting or Boy Scouts to attend the course. My personal opinion is that it would be no different from wneh we have had the occasional LDS female who needed to sleep apart from the rest of the patrol that included males. You acommodate it as best you can. While a boy ages out of Boy Scouts at 18, he is still considered a youth in the OA until 21. If he is a registered adult in the troop, he can't bunk with the boys, but can with the adults on a troop campout. When attending an OA function, he can bunk with the boys, but not the adults. If he joins a Venturing crew, he bunks with the youth and not the adults. BSA needs to get their act together on the age differences between programs and create a one size fits all solution.

It might be the same document I received at the course since it was two pages as well. I was typing on a netbook and didn't want to reproduce the whole document.

I got home late last night from attending the Southern Region's Wood Badge Course Directors' Development Conference sponsered by the Sam Houston Area Council at their beautiful Camp Strake near Conroe, TX. Here are some of the WB changes for 2010 in a nutshell. Who may attend? Participants 18 years old and older may attend regardless of their registered position as long as appropriate Youth Protection policies are followed. (This means that Venturing youth who are Crew members and not registered adult leaders may now attend WB. Questions were raised about how YP issues should be handled with Patrol camping and what would they do for a ticket pretty much went unanswered. Seems the decision was made, but no rationale was provided for the decision or how the fin points will be addressed.) Th Day Two Inclusiveness presentation and the Day Four Diversity presentation have been combined into a single Day Two presentation called Leveraging Diversity thru Inclusiveness. The hole in Day Four is filled with a new presentation called Generations in Scouting. This presentation actually does cover diversity as it talks about the generations from "the Greatest Generation" thru the Millenials". The Communications session on Day Two has been revised and has a new patrol game/activity. It also has a section that covers the internt, facebook, Twitter and texting mediums. The Patrol Chaplains Aides meeting has been moved from Day Two to Day Three so participants will have experienced the instructional and model Interfaith service before meeting. The Venturing Induction has been moved to the beginning of Day Four. -------------------------------------------- Other BSA Leadership Course Revisions I am retyping what was in a handout from the course. NYLT will be open to Boy Scouts and Venturing members beginning in 2010. We are developing a program nutral (or inclusive) version of NYLT for council to use if they wish. Work has begun on this project and an overview will be handed out at the NYLT CDC's in October and November. Official pilots will be conducted with the new syllabus in th summer of 2010 with a roll out of the new version scheduled counncil-wide in 2011. NAYLE will also be open to Venturing members in the summer of 2010 and will enlist Venturing staff from previously run coed NYLT courses. Will likely use Philmont Leadership Challenge syllabus format and module content. Powderhorn is being rewritten to a) include youth participants and b) focus more on the primary goal of educating units (adult and youth) about exciting program opportunities to enhance recruiting, retention and FUN. The new PH program is program neutral and no longer focuses exclusively on the Venturing Ranger Award but instead highlights many advancement and recognition opportunities. We held a successful pilot in Marin Council in July 2009. Mentoring is a new course under review. We are drawing from material for teen mentors from the Big Brothers Big Sisters program. The new course should be completed by November 2009.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

So, if a speed limit says 70, does that mean you can go no faster or slower for any reason? Must you maintain 70 to be within the law? Actually, Bob was a "the lit is king" kind of guys. He interpreted it pretty logically, literally and specifically just like the law and it drove people nuts who wanted to interpret it in favor of their bias or prejudice.(This message has been edited by sr540beaver)

Beavah, As a lawyer, you know that laws are not written to cover every contigency or permutation. Would a judge accept a claim of, "well the law didn't say my client couldn't do X, so therefore it must be acceptable"? Again, I'm not defending ol' Bob's stance, but I did understand where he usually came from. When someone came across something they found confusing or disagreed with in BSA literature, they tend to fudge it towards what they want it to be. Bob always tried to apply logic and go with the most literal meaning of said literature. As an example (and again, I don't have the literature, so it is just an example), if the lit said that a CC makes an assignment and a member carries it out and the word "vote" never appears anywhere, then the logical assumption is that voting isn't part of the process. All that being said, our committee routinely votes. I'm an ASM and on the rare occasion that I attend a committee meeting, I'm invited to vote. Each time I tell them that the SM and ASM's are not voting members of the committee. We are on the program side of the unit.

shortridge, I don't live in bear country, so I don't have to worry about what kind of drink or drink mix has been in whatever bottle I'm using on a campout. However, when in bear country, any bottle used for a drink mix goes in the bear bag. Bottle that have only had water in them can stay out. We have the boys mark their bear bag bottle so they are sure to reuse it for drink mixes and to know which one goes in the bag. Likewise with clothes. If you are cooking or eating and you get something on your clothing or boots......in the bear bag it goes. Do a google search on the bear's sense of smell sensitivity. They can smell things from miles away and come in search of the source. Is it overkill? Perhaps. But one thing is for sure. If you follow good bear country procedures, you mitigate the risk of bear problems greatly. Better safe than sorry.

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=73326&p=1

Actually, Bob applied that principle to unit committees based on the literature (which I do not have) as he interpreted it, not the whole of Scouting. Just as the literature doesn't say you can't vote, it doesn't say you do either as I recall. The idea (and I'm paraphrasing from very old memories) is that the CC makes assignements that the various committee members carry out. They also discuss and reach consensus on agenda items. Just sayin'......not defending.