SR540Beaver

See my previous threads about !%$#*&@#$ and *#)@%$!&. Oh, and don't forget the thread on %*@$#!^*+.

I believe the prototype for it was the Jamboree merchandise web site. It had everything you mentioned along with actually being able to pay by credit card and have it delivered to your doorstep. Evidently it worked well enough that they are now going to upgrade Scoutstuff. The wheels of progress turn slowly, but turn they do.

OK, let's see a show of hands of people who have been contacted by professional scouters over things you've posted here. Anyone? Anyone? I didn't think so.

Fscouter: "I often wonder which is easier: recruit a new chartered org and start a new unit, or work with the existing chartered org to select quality leaders and replace the bad leaders. It seems that all too often the solution to bad leadership is to abandon the unit and start a new one. There must be an easier way to rid a unit of bad leadership." We were the new kids on the block when we crossed over to the troop. It is a long story and I won't bore you with all the details. In short, the troop had done little to no recruiting for a few years and had mostly older boys. The older boys wanted to do high adventure. They were not thrilled that a bunch of little kids had joined them and rained on their parade. Their parents made up the committee and had much the same sentiment. When we crossed over, we brought 5 WB trained adults with us who had served as DL's, CM's, UC's, committee chairs and the district training chair. We were pumped about moving up to boy scouts and was just looking for a "good" troop for our sons to be in and for us to serve. I think they felt threatened and thought some sort of coup was under way. Especially since they didn't come looking for us, we found them. The last straw was when the treasurer (SM's wife) of the troop stood up in a committee meeting and threw three ring binders at the committee chair while screaming her head off, said she quit and stormed out of the room. That was bad enough on its own, but the boys were in the next room and heard the whole thing. Our new unit commissioner happened to show up for that committee meeting. A special committee meeting was called to discuss the issues and was attended by the COR (a veteran scouter and Siler Beaver). His view was that the CO really didn't want to get involved and that we all needed to play nice with one another. The treasurer explained that what she meant was that she "quit" that meeting and not the job. The old timers on the committee piped up and agreed that that was what she meant and they all took a vote of confidence for her. What was the committee chair's (one of the new scouters) infraction that caused the whole episode? She wanted the treasurer to provide monthly statements to the committee. We saw the hand writing on the wall and realized that the adults didn't take keeping the oath and law seriously. We didn't want our sons exposed to adult leaders with such low standards. Rather than work from inside to change the bad leadership, we chose to leave and start our own troop and run it by BSA standards. We thought we had done our homework on picking this troop, but sometimes you don't know what you really bought till you get it home and try it out. Barry, Thanks for the props!

Bob White: "Beaver One problem could be that there are people in your district trained on how to seek and recruit new COs. Did you use these people to prepare the CO for their role? If you knew the importance of the COs role in supporting a scout unit and you saw that it was not going to exist there why did you choose to start the troop there?" In many of the cases where I was trying to find a CO, I never got beyond a phone call before I got the "we are not interested" line. Others simply never returned my phone calls. Of the two who entertained the idea of chartering a troop, our DE accompanied me to meetings and we tag teamed them. So yes, I was aided by the one person whose job is measured in part by the growth in number of scouts and units within the district. Actually, I was doing much of his job for him as he was busting his hump trying to meet the requirements of the other part of his job he is measured on...FOS. Recruiting CO's is a long slow slog for most DE's who have a limited amount of potential charters to draw on. Charter organizations are not exactly lining up at the council office offering their services. As I said, we are cultivating the relationship with our CO. They have expressed a desire to help us more, but have limited financial, physical and human resources available. Even the pastor is a part time minister. The DE and I did out dog and pony show presenting what a CO is complete with BSA literature. They promised to do their best. Why did we go with them you ask? We had a ready made scout troop meeting in very temporary quarters and chartered to the parents as a concerned citizens group. Our CO turned out to be the only game in town for us. It isn't perfect, but so far it has been pretty good. I know the model expects organizations to be highly motivated to contact the council seeking a charter and/or the DE is out making calls on a dialy basis presenting scouting to them and cultivating relationships. I know the model expects the CO to jump in with both feet, take the bull by the horns and recruit a high quality COR, who recruits a high quality committee chair, etc, etc. You and I both know that probably in 90% of the cases, it just does not happen that way. A charter organization is talked into providing a meeting place and the person who talked them into it usually ends up taking "ownership" of the process and begs, borrows and steals to get parents to volunteer and build the troop.

My son and I do a little geocaching from time to time and it is a blast. We don't get to go as often as we like. A word to the wise if you are hiding a cache. Try to do it in the summer when there is full plant growth. I hid three in the early spring in some great hiding spots. The problem is that now they are almost inaccessable due to dense vegetation and poison ivy. I had to disable them on the internet until I can get to them and move them. My son was pumped to learn that there will be a geocaching event at the Jamboree.

We don't really restrict what boys can bring to camp. However, we really don't like seeing a kid on a 5 mile hike with head phones on and so engrossed on grooving onthe latest tunes to be oblivious to what is going on around him. Geez, there are situations where it is simply a safety issue. Do you want them rappeling with headphones and not able to hear what is going on? Don't think that some of these boys wouldn't do it if allowed. Many people find the easiest policy is simply to say they don't fit with what we are doing rather than have to counsel individual scouts all the time. We expect our boys to bring pencil and paper to each meeting....however it is for taking notes, not for drawing pictures and passing notes. We constantly have to ask for their attention. Kind of the same thing with buds poking out of ears all weekend long.

Bob, You are right. That being said, it ain't the way it actually happens much of the time. I know the BSA's method of chartering a troop and selecting leaders. I'm just one guy with my own unique exepriences, but I don't know that they are really that unique. When our boys crossed over and doubled the size of the troop we went to, it didn't take long for us to realize that we really were not wanted there. So being the gung ho sort of scouters we were, we decided to start a new troop rather than join an existing troop after the bad taste we had in our mouth. There were not CO's out there in search of starting troops. I got lucky after about 5 tries and found a CO willing to consider chartering a troop. It was a lot of work on my part. We are working at developing a relationship with our CO and they seem willing, but for the most part, I think they feel they have done their part by giving us a meeting place. We are at a church and none of our troop attends this church. In fact, it is such a small church that they really don't have any boy scout age boys. They pretty much let us do our thing and would look at it as interference if they were to select our leaders for us. Face it, most leaders come from the parents of the boys. A CO actually recruiting a leader from outside the troop is rare. Having been on search committees looking for church staff, I know it often takes months and months and months to find the right person for the job. What does the troop do while the CO is doing a search for the right person with the right qualifications? Most just won't involve themself in that. They leave it to the troop committee. I kind of look at it as putting money in the Salvation Army pot at Christmas. It gives you a warm fuzzy to know that you are helping someone in need. But it is a far cry from actually serving food at a homeless shelter. CO's often have the ssame attitude. They'd rather give you a place to meet and feel like they are doing their part as opposed to actually taking an active hand in running things. I know your answer is to develop the relationship and I also know that there are many CO's who resist that relationship because they do not want their committment to go beyond providing a meeting place. The model of a caring CO recruiting leadership is a great model on paper. It just usually does not happen that way in real life.

The story we have gotten from folks who have attended numerous past Jamborees is that there will be additional items for sale that never appeared in the catalog. You should be able to find Jambo emblems for hiking staves, different design Jambo t-sirts and such.

Eagle, The hole is the boys. We drill them on the buddy system and they just don't take it serious. I'f I had a penny for every time one of our scouts came walking into camp solo, I'd be a millionaire. We always ask where their buddy is and get the standard answers. He went to the trading post and I didn't want to go. We ran into Bill and Tom and they were going to the Econ area to look at the turtles and I wanted to come back to camp. I don't know, we stopped to watch some guys playing hacky sack and when I turned around he was gone. From what I read of this story early on was that the guy at the top of the climbing tower saw him struggling to get out of a harness while the group of boys he was with were headed down the road. When he looked again, no one was in sight. Three things went wrong. One, he didn't tell them to wait or they ignored him. Two, they walked off without him. Three, the climbing tower guy should have hollared for them to wait. I'm sure there has been a lot of soul searching on all of their parts......or should be. We adults made a sport of stopping solo boys at summer camp last year and asking them where their buddy was. We were on a long road with a number of camp sites that led to the main area of camp. We'd catch them after they had walked out of their camp and were headed to the main area. We'd turn everyone of them around and send them to back to camp to find a buddy. Everyone thinks getting lost won't happen to them.

You beat me to it. Very little details as of yet. My wife heard it on the radio and I went to CNN.com and Foxnews.com and they didn't even have it yet. I had to google for Salt Lake City TV stations. One of those didn't even have it as breaking news yet.

Take heart! At least one unit knows what they are doing. We attended Camp Pioneer in Arkansas last week. Friday night was parents night complete with a catered meal of BBQ and fried chicken. The unit that retired the colors were in perfectly matching uniforms complete with campaign hats and white gloves. They even had a drummer and bugler. It was quite impressive. I wish I'd got their unit number and home town and I'd recognize them here.

Hunt, www.usscouts.org shows changes made to merit badges. This used to be included in requirement 9b. "On one of these camping trips, hike 1.5 miles or more each way to and from your campsite. Pack your own gear plus your share of patrol gear and food." This was required while you still had to do 2 out of 5 in the same list. I think it was probably changed because it was rather redundant with the "backpack for at least 4 miles."

Semper, Many parents send their kids to scouts hoping it will do what they often are not willing to do. We have them 1 to 2 hours per week and one weekend per month and they have them pretty much 24/7. Scouting reinforces what you hope the boy is getting at home, it can't replace what they are not getting. We have two boys in our troop that can be real handfulls. One is the poster child for ADHD. He is on no medication because his mom refuses to believe there is anything wrong. Two minutes around this boy and even the untrained observer will be convinced. The other boy has been diagnosed as ADHD, but in my estimation is not. His actions just do not fit the "norm" for ADHD. He simply recieves no discipline at home and is spoiled rotten. His idol is Bart Simpson and he does his best to live up to and out do his idol. In both cases, the parents don't want to face reality and they both hope scouting will do for the boys what they won't.

NeedHelp, I wish I could offer some advice, but I'm just as interested as you to hear what everyone else has to say. Our boys went to summer camp last week. We had three of our new scouts with us. One is kind of an oddball. He is very small, skinny, always stares at the ground and has a very dry personality. He seems to be a nice enough kid though. Friday night at summer camp was parent night and his parents made the 5 hour trip to camp to come see him. He wanted to go back to the hotel with them and spend the night and return to camp the next morning to make the ride back home with the troop. Surprisingly, the SM was agreeable to it. The boys mother however told him that he needed to stay with the troop. Around bedtime, he started wandering around camp sobbing. Our SPL went to check on him and he wouldn't be consoled. In fact, he went fairly primal on us. He screamed a scream I never want to hear again as long as I live. He was picking up sticks and beating trees with them and slamming his fists into benches. Our SM had some OA business to attend to and was not in camp. I probably didn't handle it as well as I should have. I hustled over and sternly told him to stop and that his behavior was unacceptable. He made a number of hateful remarks to me. One of our committee members who had spent the week (I was only able to come Friday night to drive boys back on Saturday) is a former police officer and came out of his tent to assist. He spent more than an hour gently talking to the boy until he got him settled down and willing to go to bed. When the SM got back, he informed me that the boy has ODD - Oppositional Defiance Disorder and it comes out when he is tired and/or stressed. Gee, that would have been good information to share with me and my fellow ASM early in the game! In this case, I think the boys parents had informed the SM and even told him the boy is recieving psycologigal counseling for anger management. The next morning, the boy was bright eyed and bushy tailed. In my opinion, this boy needs a parent along on outings since we never know if or when something will set him off.

We do what Eamonn said. You pay in advance and if you don't go, no refunds. Take it to the committee and make it a policy. To be "fair" to the non-commitals, make the deadline for paying up the Monday meeting before the campout. They have to get off the fence in time for food to be bought and transportation arrangements to be made. If they pay and don't show, they are out the cash.

OK guys! Geez! Part of what threw me was that all the requirement concerned itself with was the milage, nothing else. You'd think if it was so concerned with "backpacking" it would say to pack all the gear you'd need for an overnight stay, set up camp and cook a meal. All it says is backpack "4 miles". That could be interpreted as hike four miles with a loaded backpack and technically be correct. It is kind of like requirement 9b4 that says "Plan and carry out a float trip of at least four hours." Nowhere does it say you have to float in a canoe although that is the way most would interpret it. Heck, the most fun float trip I ever took was about 8 hours in an innertube down the Brazos River in Texas. Boy did I get sunburned!

John, The hike with daypacks was part of a two night campout where the boys did set up camp. Came in on Friday night and set up camp. Hiked saturday with a trail lunch from their packs along with map and compass work and back to camp for Saturday night. They carried food, water, flashlights, compasses, rain gear, first aid kits, etc. Just not extra clothes, stoves or tents. That was all back in camp.

Eagle, This was a summer camp situation. The MB counselor is not available after the fact. If you plan on getting a "complete" while at camp, you have a list of pre-requisites to complete. If those are not completed prior to going to camp, you get a partial on the MB and then it is up to the SM to verify the rest of the requirements are completed at a later date. I know our SM was fine with my son's 20 days and nights of scout camping since he has 32 nights of camping since joining in February of last year. The real question is about whether the SM will consider hiking 6 miles with a day pack the same as backpacking a minimum of 4 miles. The requirement doesn't mention camping or cooking on the trail, just the miles. The main difference would be the weight of a daypack as opposed to a backpack in my mind. But it is his call and not mine. In a summer camp environment, the items I have in question can not be completed in camp and rely on the SM's verification.

One note about boys buying their own tents. We have had boys go out and buy 6 man cabin tents that take up an acre of land. You make them buy them and you have little control over what they buy. You can suggest, but you can't control. Mr Maynard, While I don't disagree with the buddy system extending to tents, show me where the BSA even suggests such. The buddy system is important in the water or away from camp and we enforce it religiously, but we don't extend it to tents. The fact that our tents are within a few feet of each other if not closer and you can hear a tick pass gas from one tent to another makes us not worry so much about having a buddy in the tent. There are some boys who no one wants to tent with and are miserable if they are forced to. There are some boys who have privacy issues. Don't get me wrong, we like for them to tent together, we just don't force them to. In fact, we quickly learned to limit our scouts to two per tent and no more. In our experience, if you get more than two boys to a tent, one of two things happen. Either one guy becomes the odd man out or the party runs all night long. We've had nothing but bad things happen and damaged tents with more than two to a tent.

I think it fits in to the scouting program in several ways. We are trying to teach boys how to make ethical choices in life. We are trying to teach them independence. We are tryingto teach them to be leaders as well as team members. We are trying to teach them to be men of character. Wouldn't you think that self reliance fits into all of those things in one form or fashion? That being said, I'm not sure how having them buy a tent of their own and bunking alone will teach them about ethics, character and leadership. Not to put words in Bob White's mouth, but in earlier threads discussing bunk buddies, Bob carried the buddy system all the way to tents. If a scout gets up in the middle of the night to answer nature's call or gets extremely sick, there is an advantage to having a buddy to recognize that you didn't return to the tent and may be lost or that you need medical aid. Some felt that was extreme, some didn't. Out troop does not supply tents, but we are a new and young troop. We don't have the bucks to do it. Therefore, the boys supply their own tents. They do have to rely on their self. They are responsible for setting it up or asking for help and returning the favor. They have to care for the tent. If they tear it up, it is theirs to deal with. They can't try to sneak a torn troop tent by you and hope to get a good one next campout. It makes them learn to take care of their shelter or learn the hard way real fast. The realization that it is your responsiblity is a step towards self reliance. Another scout has gone missing in Utah. He has yet to be found. Will he be able to rely on his self to stay alive, sheltered and healthy until help comes? I hope so. He is a very young scout without a lot of experience. I hope that all the skills we use and teach will teach a boy to be self reliant. I don't think we have to go commando or native to do it. I don't think supplying your own tent as opposed to troop tents will make that huge of a difference in the process to self reliance. Never throw away the patrol method in an effort to teach self reliance.

My son took the Camping MB last week at summer camp. I have a couple of questions regarding this MB. The camp counselor accepted the word of the SM concerning requirment 9a for camping 20 days and 20 nights. One SM friend I've talked to said that their troop starts counting the days and nights from the time a scout expresses a desire to take the MB instead of counting camping done before the MB. How have you guys handled this one? My son had it checked off by his MB counselor on the word of the SM. My other question is with requirment 9b. The scout has to do 2 items out of a list of 5 while on one of the campouts from 9a. 9b2 says backpack for at least four miles. A few months ago we did a 6 mile day hike with daypacks. Would that qualify? It is the "backpack" term that is throwing me. I tend to seperate backpacking from hiking in my mind as different things. Backpacking obviously involves wearing a backpack and camping. Hiking can be with or without a pack and doesn't necessarily involve camping. We camped, just not on the trail and we did all have day packs. Would you count that as meeting the requirement?

I found this on the BSA's Jamboree web page. Close to 100 booths will fill the Merit Badge Midway. The midway will feature many exciting hands-on activities for Scouts. It is designed to stimulate their interest in a wide variety of merit badges, including Auto Mechanics, Skiing, Communications, Energy, Aviation, and Computers. Scouts will have an opportunity to practice many skills related to the merit badges. They may meet some of the requirements of the badge at the jamboree and then complete the requirements at home.

This will be the first Jamboree I have attended, so I'm not the best of information. There are others here who have been and can answer better. There is a merit badge midway at Jambo that will represent most if not all MB's. My impression is that they are more for introducing a boy to an MB and do provide some hands on activities tp spur his interest and might even help accomplish some requirements. However, Jambo is not summer camp. The boys will have tons of activities to do and sitting in MB classes is not one of them to my knowledge. If so, they did a poor job of communicating that to us contingent leaders.

I have one word for all of you......CHEVY!