SMT224

I really think it would be activity appropriate for the Boy Scouts to have something like an energy bar or gorp to relates to the hiking and camping Boy Scouts are known for. This would be so much better than popcorn.

A granola packed energy bar is not a Thin Mint cookie - no rational person could confuse. The Girl Scouts need to get over it!

Despite lessons from the past, it seems that every generation believes that they alone have the capability and strength to make things different at last. Of course JFK and then Johnson thought we could show the Vietnamese a better way and they would embrace democracy and thank us. Of course Bush and now Obama believe that Iraq and Afghanistan will see the light if we can just stay the course a bit longer. In the meantime, all the Presidential candidates believe their way and their way alone will guide us to the best future possible. And could any of us believe any different?

noname -

Making such a change in the Troop will be HARD!! As you have reported, the SPL will NOT want to do. Sit down with him, and let him know that changes are coming and that the Troop will be doing tent camping from now on. The Adult leaders will need to stick together and let the Troop know that there will be lot's more tent camping, and that's that. It's important for the Adults to be committed to doing this, despite the whines and complaints of those Scouts (and even worse, parents!) who are used to doing things the old way. And a few may even quit! Big deal, so what? You'll be much better off with their whining. It will take at least 2 years for the new tent camping protocol to become part of the Troop culture.

Instead of giving the Scouts in your Troop total control of all activities and outings, sit down with the PLC, or better the entire Troop, and ask where they would like to go camping - not whether or not they'd like to go. Do your homework first and come up with a list of near-by State and National Parks as well as potential off-season Boy Scout camps. Let them decide based in part on camping associated activities for rank advancement and merit badge work. For example, several of our camping trips include 10-mile hikes for those working on the hiking merit badge.

When I took over as Scoutmaster in our Troop some 12 years ago, there were 4 or 5 camping trip a year, all decided by the adults sitting around over beers every couple of months or so. There was no Scout involvement. The dates for trips were very random and based on what worked for the adults. I really caused a stir when, as the new Scoutmaster, decided that our trips would always be on the 2nd weekend of the month, and we would hence forth have an annual activity planning session with the entire Troop. I was called a dictator and worse, and several threatened to quit. But, in a couple years it was so much a part of the Troop culture that all objections were forgotten and it was just what we did.

I also added a lot of preparation time for each and every camping trip - 2 weeks before the trip we plan all menus by Patrol (even if there are only a couple Scouts going from a Patrol) and get the chuck-boxes packed. A week before the camping trip we check all equipment, set up all tents, and tag who will be using what tent. That way when we arrive at 10 pm in the dark & cold & wind & rain or snow, the Scouts know they have a good tent, are familiar with setting it up, and can do it quickly with out fuss. At the meeting after the trip we do a good/bad/changes debriefing and look a pictures of the trip.

You may (sorry, WILL) have a difficult few years making these changes, but it will be well worth it!!

Remember, as has been said often on this forum, "Boy run does not mean boy run into the ground!"

A bunch of us had daughters in the Girl Scout Troop as well as sons in the Boy Scouts.

Here's the problem - we took the girls winter camping a few years ago, and it got down to -9F. The coldest it's gotten with the boys is 2F. So now the boys are looking for any opportunity to beat the girls with a -10F.

It wasn't this year... it only got down to 5F for our January camping trip, and 17F in February. Always next year!

We usually go tent camping every month except December. We do summer camp plus a 7 day / 6 night adventure trip in August. We try to find a Klondike, but other wise just go winter camping in January or February. Sometimes we will rent a cabin for cooking and eating, but always sleep in tents, or occasionally in Adirondacks.

We do our calendar year planning in August or September, and stick to the schedule. Sometimes we have 25 Scouts on a camping trip, sometimes 6. We go anyway. Only rarely have we cancelled a trip due to extreme weather conditions.

My suggestion to the OP is to work with Troop to set a monthly camping schedule for a year of tent camping. Do it now for the rest of 2012. Take plenty of pictures of the Scouts having fun and show them the week after getting back from the trip. It may take a couple years for this to become part of the Troop culture, but when it does, you'll be a camping troop!!

The crossover from our feeder Pack happens in late April.

We do a joint camping trip in early April, which includes a morning service project, and then an afternoon with joint Pack / Troop activities including campcraft and scoutcraft demonstrations and fun games. On Saturday evening we do a Pack/Troop campfire with songs and skits. This let's the Cubs and parents see the Troop in action and have a fun night of camping in what is usually pretty nice weather.

As others have said, I wouldn't do a crossover any earlier because of weather - the new Scouts would not be able to go on the harder cold weather camping trips - so I wouldn't want them spinning their wheels.

Once crossed over, the new Scouts join the Troop on our fair weather May and June camping trips, then off to summer camp. As they do more and more camping trips they are ready for cold weather camping come winter.

In addition, the Pack does not want to make the B&G any more complicated or longer with the addition of another ceremony.

A follow up article in today's Post...

Girl Scout Cookies: A battle brewing over the boxes

By Melissa Bell 09:48 AM ET, 01/30/2012

For years, the most scandalous thing about the annual Girl Scout cookie sale was the companys inability to decide on what type of lemon cookie people liked best.

Gone are those halcyon days. The kid-friendly corporation has come under attack from small groups of religious conservatives. To protest the protest, though, people have come up with a sweet solution: Buy more cookies.

This weekend, The Posts columnist Robert McCartney writes about the smear campaign against the Girl Scouts thats starting to have an impact.

I see the next generation of a treasured institution about to celebrate 100 years of giving girls a chance to hike and camp, learn skills such as gardening and first aid, and build character and leadership.

But some religious conservatives see something very different: representatives of a dangerous, secular organization that aggressively promotes abortion and quietly encourages paganism, homosexuality and other alleged social ailments.

Already, some churches are pulling their support of the troops, by revoking meeting spaces. A social media campaign implored people to stop buying the cookies.

So, to counteract that, McCartney and others are advising a buying campaign: Show your support by eating Thin Mints.

Dave Lieberman of the OC Weekly writes, for those of us who think your boycott is wrongheaded and prejudiced, theres a solution: the Girl Scout Cookie Locator, an app available for the iPhone through the App Store.

It could be the effect of the counterprotest or perhaps everyone just really wants to try the newest cookie Savannah Smiles. Either way, the Girl Scouts seem to be winning this round. The Washington area council leader Lidia Soto-Harmon told McCartney initial orders on the cookies were up more than 6 percent.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/girl-scout-cookies-a-battle-brewing-over-the-boxes/2012/01/30/gIQAkpjNcQ_blog.html

In addition to being a Scoutmaster for a Boy Scout Troop, I was the camping adviser for my daughters Girl Scout Troop from 2005 to 2011. The girls loved to go camping and do just about everything Boy Scouts do. My focus was clearly on camping and outdoor activities, and we did a lot of it! At no point did I ever hear anything like that discussed below.

From today's (1/29) Washington Post...

Dont fall for smears against the Girl Scouts

By Robert McCartney, Published: January 28

The culture wars in this country have grown so acute that we cant even agree to support a patriotic, faith-affirming, achievement-oriented group like the Girl Scouts.

I smile when girls from the local troop stand nervously on my doorstep and ask me to buy Thin Mints and Trefoils. I see the next generation of a treasured institution about to celebrate 100 years of giving girls a chance to hike and camp, learn skills such as gardening and first aid, and build character and leadership.

But some religious conservatives see something very different: representatives of a dangerous, secular organization that aggressively promotes abortion and quietly encourages paganism, homosexuality and other alleged social ailments.

Its ill-informed nonsense. Nonetheless, its spawned a smear campaign against the Girl Scouts thats starting to have an impact, including in our region.

Conservative activists have used social media to encourage parents to boycott cookie sales, pull their daughters out of scouts and push churches not to provide meeting spaces for troops.

This month, for the first time in our area, a church bowed to the pressure. St. Timothy Roman Catholic parish in Chantilly in Fairfax County ousted 12 troops with 115 girls. In Alexandria, Saint Rita Catholic Church is reportedly considering doing the same.

At St. Timothy, Rev. Gerald Weymes told scout leaders they could no longer use church or parochial school facilities after the current school year. He didnt offer a public explanation and wasnt giving interviews.

But the diocese didnt deny reports that St. Timothy was unhappy with the U.S. Girl Scout organizations membership in the international girl scouting association.

The latter group, which has members in 145 countries, supports access to contraception and is also often accused of backing abortion and being affiliated with Planned Parenthood.

To appreciate the extremity of the churchs action, consider the following: Americas Girl Scouts say explicitly, repeatedly, at the neighborhood, regional and national level, that they have no stance on birth control or abortion.

No Girl Scout dues or proceeds from cookie sales go to the international group, called the World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts. Rebecca Munro, a spokeswoman for the association in London, said it has no position on abortion and no relationship with Planned Parenthood.

Misinformation is passing as fact, Diane Tipton, president of the Girl Scout Council of the Nations Capital, said in a Jan. 22 statement responding to St. Timothys move. The Girl Scout organization does not take a position on abortion or birth control, and these topics are not part of the Girl Scout program or our materials. We believe these matters are best discussed by girls with their families.

Such avowals havent dissuaded the critics. They are convinced the Girl Scouts are secretly promoting abortion under guise of teaching knots and scrapbooking.

That didnt square with the experience of local Girl Scout adult leaders whom I interviewed.

I have never come across anything thats pro-life or pro-choice in any of our council literature, or any of our national literature, said Kathy Sears, a troop adviser and adult trainer, who lives in Calvert County.

Another defender of the scouts is the National Federation for Catholic Youth Ministry, a group that ought to have some credibility with Catholics. Its an official church organization and has been actively investigating and mostly refuting the accusations for several years.

The federations Web site devotes a page to knocking down rumors. Girl Scouts support Planned Parenthood? Not true, the federation says. Girl Scout law does not refer to God anymore? Not true.

The federation has some concerns about the international association, but thinks that doesnt justify rejecting American Girl Scouts altogether.

Its the whole thing of guilt by association. Does one policy with which you cant agree prevent you from being involved in broader coalitions? My position is that the only way you can advocate for the churchs position is to be engaged in the dialogue, said Robert McCarty, the federations executive director. (Yes, we shared a laugh about our names similarity.)

Some Girl Scout leaders in the area wish St. Timothy had adopted a similar, broad-minded attitude.

Im not sure that the father has made his decision based on any real fact, said one adult leader from Chantilly, who spoke on condition of anonymity because she feared alienating the church. I think its unfortunate that somebody makes a decision, and other people assume its right and act accordingly, and it kind of snowballs.

Happily, the controversy doesnt seem to be hurting this years cookie sales. Lidia Soto-Harmon, chief executive of the Washington area council, said initial orders were up more than 6 percent.

I say, lets all cast a vote for girls with backpacks and against disinformation. When the neighborhood girls ring your doorbell, order an extra couple of boxes.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/robert-mccartney-dont-fall-for-smears-against-the-girl-scouts/2012/01/27/gIQAEJtMYQ_print.html

Here's one I thought everyone knew, but got worse than a blank stare...

My son is on the swim team, and his coaches a couple of graduates who are now at the local University. They are really into diet and lot's of practice, including plenty of push-ups. When he first joined the team, they said he could choose the kind of suit he swam in at the swim meets. He could either have one that went half way down his thigh, or a very short suit. I said, "oh, you mean like Mark Spitz?" The coach looked at me and said, "Who?"

Never mind.

BTW OP, I concur with the educational association. Yep, I would have laughed.

I believe each and every boy in the Troop should have an opportunity to take on a leadership position and make as many mistakes as possible! Scouting should be a safe place to mess up and learn what works and what doesn't. I'm always delighted to see how well a shy and retiring Scouts can do when he takes on the responsibility of a Patrol or the Troop.

We did have a "natural" leader several years ago... he was excellent at leading Scouts -- and they easily became loyal followers. Unfortunately, he lead them to all the wrong places! He was a great leader, just didn't think the Scout Law applied to him!

I'd rather have a Scout that stumbles and trips a few times as he learns to lead than a "natural" leader.

Our Troop is similar to that described by resqman...

All meal planning, food money collection, shopping, preparation, and clean up is done by Patrol. The Patrol designates cooks and KP crew for each meal.

Adults eat separately from Scouts.

Two weeks before a camping trip the Patrols meet to plan menus, set up their chuck box, designate a shopper, and combine their food money. If a Scout does not bring in his money (usually $10-$15 for a typical week-end camping trip), then he does not go. If he pays and then backs out later, no refunds.

These hard and fast rules were decided by the PLC after several Scouts came to the menu planning sessions and said they'd "bring their money next week" and then would disappear for 2 or 3 weeks, leaving the food buyer stuck.

We do this whether there are 8 members of the Patrol going camping or only 2. For a while we would create a "Camping Patrol" if there were only a few going from each Patrol, but we found it's better to keep the Patrol together even if there only a couple Scouts going. If there's only one Scout, then he can join another Patrol.

On the camping trip, the SPL works with the PL and Patrol members to ensure that food is cooked properly and the KP crew does it's job cleaning things up. If an adult sees a dirty pot or pan or mess kit, the SPL is alerted and takes care of the issue.

Cub Scouts prepare boys to be Boy Scouts

Boy Scouts prepare boys to be men and leaders

While in Cub Scouts, they should have lot's of fun and be boys.

While in Boy Scouts, they should make lot's of mistakes and learn to lead and make things happen.

This is not to say that as Cube they are mini-Boy Scouts -- they are not! They are Cubs! Nor can teenage boys take on the responsibilities of being a man and a leader. But in the game of Scouts, they are learning by doing.

We do not do this because there are some Scouts in our Troop whose families can barely afford registration and summer camp, let alone basic food costs for a camping trip. They simply do not have the money to stop and buy stuff. Other Scouts could easily ask mom & dad for $10 or $20, and may indeed have something in their pocket if we should stop somewhere on the way back from a camping trip. But we do not want to create a situation where some boys would have to wait in the car because they do not have any $$, and then watch as others indulge in treats they cannot have.

We will occasionally stop at a fast food place for lunch if we are on a long distance trip - going to summer camp for example. But we let the families know far ahead of time so they can plan and then we ensure that everyone has money before we depart.

For those Troops that do stop for junk food, who pays? Does the Troop give each Scout $5 or $10, or do the boys have their own money? What do you do if a Scout does not have money?

We attend Mass on Sunday not at the request of our Catholic sponsoring organization, but due to a number of parents who absolutely will not allow their son to go camping unless provisions for Mass attendance are built into the camping schedule prior to departure.

Our Troop is sponsored by a Catholic Church, and about 1/2 the Scouts are members of the parish. We either go to Mass near where we are camping or be back to our home church in time for Mass. Either way, we have no other option than get up and go.

However, if possible, we try to schedule our camping over a three day weekend (like upcoming MLK), and then head home after lunch on Monday. In such cases, we go to church on Sunday morning near where we are camping, go food shopping after church, and then head back to camp. The Scouts appreciate the extra night out, and it makes it seem like a much longer camping trip.

Patrols are responsible for cleaning their own dishes, pots & pans, and any kitchen mess. Adults take care of themselves.

We try to get things cleaned up as much as possible on Saturday night so Sunday morning is pack & go. Sunday breakfast is oatmeal out of paper bowls so we don't create any big cleaning jobs.

Wow! Great ideas!

Me thinks we should start a PAC and make some demands. Those currently engaged in the election are likely to agree to anything if it means votes!

Hmmmm.... was Quality Unit mandatory?

What if you didn't do it? We always did it, so no idea...

And now, what does "mandatory" mean? That the unit will not be re-chartered?

Beavah, I like the 60 day deadline. In addition, effective October 1 of each year, I'd like to see an absolute cessation of Congressional funding, including all member & staff salaries, travel expenses, as well as utilities, telephone, & internet for all Congressional offices until a budget is passed. I like to think they'd move a bit faster if the lights went out and their blackberries stopped working! And CR's don't count!

My worry is that the partisan rift in America is become so intensive that some have made party is first, country second. What an elected leaders does seems to be judged entirely on party affiliation. It's unfortunate that substance counts less that party. If Obama were a Republican, most of what he has done would be applauded by the GOP.

I'm sure he's talking about winter camping!

What could build confident leaders better than the seriousness of camping in snow at 17 degrees!

Although I really don't feel like things get serious until it's below 0.

We integrate the Hiking MB in our regular Troop activities so we do a number of 10 mile hikes through out the year, and then a 20 mile hike every other year. Doing the 10 mile hikes is the conditioning for the 20 mile hike. Not all participate, but after a couple years those that are interested have completed all the requirements and have earned the MB. We find it really helps to have plenty of Scouts on the hikes to keep each other company and spirits up. The conditioning comes from getting out there and doing it.

Here's what I got my boys (15 yr twins) for Christmas.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003R0LSMO/ref=oh_o00_s02_i01_details

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00503E8S2/ref=oh_o00_s02_i04_details

Which one is more dangerous...?

Thanks for the suggestions. I will seriously consider the idea of giving the Scouts knives next Christmas. But perhaps I should wait until an irate mom pulls her son out of the Troop because he's been using his knife to carve on things around the yard...

One of my overriding contentions with Scouting is that boys & girls like to play with fire and knives. Scouting gives kids a safe and constructive way to indulge in these activities. Scouts learn how to safely handle both fire and knives and learn life-long skills. I encourage Scouts to build, maintain, and put out fires according to Fire-m-Chit, and handle knives according to Tote-n-Chip. Of course they do get a burn or cut now and again. It's all part of the learning process. Respect and an understanding of the rules are the end points of the process.

However, I just had a call from a mom who is pulling her son out of the Troop because he has been setting fires in their backyard. She is afraid he will soon set their house on fire. She is furious, and believes we have encouraged this behavior.

And here I'm giving the Scouts a tinderbox kit (char cloth & metal box, a magnesium sparker, natural rope fibers, 0000 steel wool, 9-volt battery) for their Troop Christmas present!

Am I out of line?