SMT224

Thanks Bronco! This is really a good thing.

Did you have to add everything by hand? Or did Google search and add anything automatically?

I'd like to see something similar for the rest of the mid-Atlantic states, including New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland, West Virgina, & Virginia.

A rank a year works just fine.

If they advance faster than that, great, but no need to push it. They have plenty of time. By the time they're 1st Class and working on Star, they should really know Campcraft and Scoutcraft skills because they've been on plenty of camping trips and have had lot's of experience.

I was finally settling down in my sleeping bag after a busy day and all the Scouts had quieted down. Suddenly a Patrol came tumbling out of their tents crying for help as they all started throwing up at about the same time. Some didn't even make it out of their tents! Some actually made it out into the woods, some just out of the tent. It was a sound that immediately pulled me out of my slumber, into my clothes, and out of my tent!

Apparently they had just barely cooked their hamburger, because, as they said later, they were really hungry and didn't feel like waiting. It certainly was a learning experience, and made a huge "food Safety" impression on the Scouts. To this day, Scouts who were not on the trip still talk about it whenever anyone is cooking hamburger!

I heard Mike Rowe speak about a year ago. He was a great speaker and very inspirational. Among other subjects, he covered "Safety Third"...

http://www.mikeroweworks.com/2009/08/safety-third-huh/

Thanks! I'll pass out at our PLC this evening. I'm sure several of the Scouts will be interested. Thank goodness I recently up dated Safety Afloat so we'll be ready for 7A!

Egads Beavah! We're sitting around a fire talking, not developing national policy! While I appreciate the information given and spirit of discourse, I really wasn't seeking an overview on how to prepare for a winter camping trip or a rendered opinion on hard and fast unshakable rules vs experience.

After reading posts on risk, as well as the discussion on objective and subject risks, I added a bit on how I though this may relate to what I had noticed on winter camping trips when teaching Scouts about hypothermia, specifically related to the risks related to impaired judgement. There are all kinds of risks associated with cold weather camping, and I was attempting to focus the discussion on one element of risk.

Beavah - nothing set in stone or definitive here... kicking some ideas around the campfire and trying to understand this notion of objective and subjective risks as it relates to what I've observed teaching Scouts about risks, particularly hypothermia. More of a dialog of discovery for me. I still think STOP is a good thing for the Scout to know and understand, and if they do get into a difficult situation remembering to sit down and think may save them from the disaster of panic.

le Voyageur - Thanks for the Deep Survival reference. Found it at the Library and have commenced to read.

Ok Beavah, ya don't like rules... only good in a static situation, bad in the real world dynamics of a survival situation. So how do you, or how do you recommend Scouts, survive the state so well described by le Voyageur as the "umbles" of mumble, stumble, bumble, and crumble?

By rules I mean "STOP" and the preparedness rules gunny enumerated. Such "rules" are intended to keep you or your buddy going and out of a dangerous situation without doing what you necessarily feel like doing in your confused state.

Gunny -- Thanks. No worries. Now I better understand what you were saying.

leVoyager -- I appreciate the clarification of subjective risks. I too would appreciate more info on how this relates to objective risks.

Again my interest in this comes from my difficulties in getting our Scouts to fully understand the implication of how progressing hypothermia can cloud judgement. Would that be considered a subjective risk vs the objective risk of not being prepared in the first place?

At our February camping trip, the temps were in the low teens, it was snowing, and very windy. We were working on getting a fire going and everyone was engaged either collecting wood or focusing or starting the fire. Everyone was dressed properly and no one was in immediate danger, but it was noticeably cold. After the fire was roaring and were standing around roasting kielbasa on sticks we discussed really what impaired judgement meant and what you could do if you or a buddy were afflicted by it. I explained that you had to know and stick to certain rules (objective) no matter how you felt (subjective). I think the older boys understood this concept, but the younger ones had a hard time getting beyond reality not being what they felt it was.

Hence the discussion on objective vs subject risks is of significant interest to me... especially in relation to keeping the Scouts... "safe"!

Gunny! The point of my post was to try and figure out what was meant by objective and subjective risk. You missed the point entirely!

I was using hypothermia because it seemed to illustrate the subjectivity of clouded judgement as the core body temperature decreases. I was not seeking a discussion on how best to avoid hypothermia by being prepared, nor do I need to be lectured on it. I teach this stuff!

Head wounds tend to bleed alot - I know, I have 5 kids, all of who have fallen or smacked something or been smacked and ended up with a little cut that bleed all down their head, neck and clothes. And a broken nose - two of my boys have done that - one in hockey with an airborne puck and the other on a winter camping trip. Lot's and lot's of blood, soaking their clothes, the ice and snow. Quite a site. One ended up with a ruined jersey and for the other, well, we just threw away his shirt.

Pretty much the same for every other broken nose I've seen and head wound I've treated -- lot's of blood. Hard to miss.

Hypothermia is hardly silly!

Just trying to understand how the le Voyageur "objective & subjective" risks fit into a real world example.

It seems like the clouded judgement aspect of hypothermia is the hardest part for the Scouts to understand when we teach cold weather first aid.

So if you go on a hike in the late fall or early spring and are surprised by a "freak" snow storm and get lost and then it gets dark and hypothermia sets in, were the objective risks the lack of preparation with regard to clothing, map, and a weather check before departure? And then do the subjective risks kick in as the hypothermia clouds your judgement and you strip and dance through the snow feeling safe and happy?

This might be good for an Adult Patrol...

http://www.patchtown.com/askyoursplpatrolpatch.aspx

Our Adult "Patrol" patch...

http://store.classb.com/dutch-oven-patrol-emblem.html

And we have an adult chuck box, several adult dutch ovens, and camp as far away from the Scouts as reasonably possible. We do our own cooking (each adult takes a different meal) and all our own cleaning up.

This is so much a part of our Troop culture that I can't imagine any other way of doing things.

We let new parents know that our Troop is a "safe place to make mistakes", and that we fully expect boys will get burns while learning about fire, cut while learning how to handle a knife, and get frustrated while learning about leadership. We envision these bumps in the road will make him stronger and better able to handle the larger issues when he's older. By "safe" we mean that we'll be there with the necessary medical care and mentoring to help him learn from his mistakes -- not that his time in the Troop will be risk free!

Yes, OldGreyEagle, I hear what your saying... the more things change, the more they stay the same...

Which is true on a grand level. But Rome did fall, and the British Empire has faded, and the populations outside of the U.S. are becoming better educated and increasingly innovative. This could mean significant change for all of us in the next few years...

Along similar lines, and appropriate to the evolving discussion in this post...

http://www.good.is/post/are-private-schools-stifling-american-innovation/

This article focuses on private schools, but could apply to the overall approach to kids in general by parents and others wanting everyone to be a winner. The article concludes...

"The result is a generation with no experience overcoming obstacles. Research shows that failure and struggle are crucial to learning and success, but if young people grow up without problems to fix, if they're not forced to learn critical thinking skills and how to tap their creativity to solve challenges, they stop innovating.

And that, in turn, hurts the United States' abilities to compete with its global peers. Kids growing up in China, India, and other emerging economies, Wolf writes, are being "intellectually toughened" by their experiences with "demanding teachers, a tradition of educational authority undiluted by consumerism, rigorous standards, and the hardships of economic stringency." So although American parents think they're giving their children every advantage by removing adversity from school, they may actually be destroying the qualities that set students up for success. If the trend continues, she writes, "the rest of the world is about to eat American kids' lunch."

My first two questions to a new parent or volunteer with the Troop is "...how many Scouts can your vehicle carry, and can it pull a trailer?" Most anyone can be trained, but a leader with a Suburban...

As a current BSA adult leader, and a past leader in the Girl Scouts and Cubs, I have worked with boys and girls from several different religions, including Islam, Buddhist, and all kinds of Christianity. All are welcome into the Scouting family because they have a belief in God or some kind of spiritual entity.

What concerns me about the AHG is that it appears that membership is limited to a pretty specific flavor of Christianity. What about the Muslim girls? Or the Mormon girls? Or girls whose family practices a different kind of Christianity? Do we have separate "Scouting" programs for every different religious brand out there?

Or do we bring all these different girls together to discover that despite their religious differences, they have significant common ground and really aren't as different as their parents and religious institutions make them out to be. I've seen friendship blossom under starry skies as the campfire crackles and girls come together as Scouts. To me, the laughter and smiles after a day of hiking and exploring nature is what it's all about, and can be as profoundly spiritual as anything in any church or sanctuary anywhere.

Welcome to the campfire. Unfold your chair and have a seat. As with any fire Scout Leaders sit around, some here like to talk alot, and others just stare into the flames. Toss a log on if you have something to say, and make yourself comfortable!

We try to have 3 or 4 adults on a camping trip. This would be for a group of 5 to 20 Scouts. Over 20 Scouts we try to have at least 4 adults. This way if you have to drive someone to the hospital (which we've had to do!), there will still be 2 adults remaining at camp. While we have done many camping trips with 2 adults with 5 to 10 Scouts, we much prefer at least 3 adults. But there are times that only a couple adults can go. I can't imagine a 2:1 ratio & lots of parents! Usually the guys are quite happy to get away from mom & dad!

When I first joined our Troop the Committee Chair and Treasurer refused to disclose the amount in the Troop account to anyone, and had hid part of the money in a separate account. They were confident that the CO, at some point in the near future, would take our funds - especially if they thought we have more than we needed to operate the Troop. They were steadfast in their refusal to disclose the amount or location of the funds, but let on that it was quite a lot of money. After the old guys retired and new blood came on the Committee, including a new Treasurer, we discovered that the secret amount was $1K! Which is about our annual operating budget. We now have total transparency so we can all see what is in the budget. And the CO has never indicated they have any interest in our budget. But I cannot imagine having $73K! Wow!! If we have a good fund raising season and end up with $2K in the bank, we feel incredibly rich!

trainerlady - I agree with your post. Volunteer "fees" is the reason I am not going to Jambo as a volunteer, even though I would really like to, and feel I'd have alot to contribute as well. So then who ends up participating in these events - those who can afford to! Not me, and not our Troop. When our Scouts heard how much Jambo costs, with all the extra fees, including the volunteer fee like the one you described, they said "Forget it!! We are just fine camping on our own at State Parks, Wilderness Areas, and on District events. Why go to Jambo when we can use our hard earned money doing what we want!"

But is does make me think... what if Troops were to implement an FOS "fee"? Say $200 into the Troop Treasury for the District FOS person to come and speak to the Troop? Of course speaking at a premium event like a Court of Honor or Troop Anniversary where parents would be present would be double the normal Troop FOS processing fee. After all, we have expenses too!

And I just wanna go camping! And so did my Girl Scout daughter, and my Boy Scout sons... But here it is...

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/03/boy-scouts-are-from-mars-girl-scouts-are-from-venus/253957/