SMT224

Read this before any further posts...

http://thoughtcatalog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/A-Flowchart-to-Help-You-Determine-if-Yoursquore-Having-a-Rational-Discussion.jpg

I do not agree at all with those in the "coed is inevitable" camp. It's not better, and should not happen!

I say this as a past advocate of the coed concept - it seemed logical and a great way to do Scouting. But that was before reality showed me otherwise.

I've been on about 20 camping trips with the Girl Scouts, and well over 120 camping trip with the Boy Scouts. And 3 mixed camping trips. Small sample? Maybe, but I've noted significant consistency in the observations.

Both girls and boys like to play with fire and knives, both like to hike and explore, and both love to camp out and watch a campfire as the evening turns into night. And both girls and boys love to talk - about all kinds of things.

A good part of any activity is how the Scouts interact with each other. I have directly witnessed how great boys get along with other boys, and how great girls get along with other girls, and how bad it is to mix girls & boys. It makes a huge difference! Yes, you can do it, but when it works so much better to be non-coed, why change it?

I completely agree with others who have said that girls in Girl Scouts want something like a Boy Scout program.

I've spent the past seven years acting as the Camping Adviser for my daughters Girl Scout Troop. I've done the best I could to bring the BSA outdoor program to these girls. They know how to correctly use a knife, chop and saw wood, can start a fire without matches, set up camp and sleep in tents winter, spring, summer and fall... and out hike most Boy Scouts! They love to go camping and hate most of the GS activities.

But they do not want coed Scouting - they like being in their Troop with their friends in a safe environment.

Because four BSA adult leaders with sons in the Troop also had daughters in the GS Troop, on three occasions we tried joint camping trips. Each and every time it was an utter disaster. Boys are much happier and better off being around boys, and girls are much happier and better off being around girls. When we all camped together, the girls spent their time ignoring the other girls and flirting with the boys, and the boys acted like idiots and spent their time showing off for the girls.

Forget coed, GS needs a better outdoor program!!

Thanks for all the good replies to my OP! This has been a very good discussion for me. I understand additional details would help, but it's better I not add any more. It's my hope this young man has matured and moved on.

Thanks for your responses... I appreciate the perspectives.

I like the ideas put forth by twocubdad & Oak Tree... a comment in Troopmaster may be the best way to transmit the facts (who, what, when).

Yep Pack, your right, I am prejudicial! Hence my dilemma.

I got burned in part by letting a kid get away with increasingly worse behavior in the name of accommodation and hoping that if we gave him a break and a "stern talking to", his behavior would change. It did not. It got worse until he did something that crossed the line and required the significant action of expelling a Scout from the Troop.

I also got burned as it happened on my watch - something I wouldn't wish on any SM.

But it may be (my real hope) that he really has learned his lesson and has straightened up and will henceforth fly right.

About 7 months ago our Troop expelled a Scout who engaged in extremely unScoutlike behavior on a camping trip. We fully involved Council and had a very emotional BOR where the Scout had to answer for his behavior and was expelled from the Troop. Council was at the BOR and left saying they would have a meeting to consider removing him from Boy Scouts for life.

This was a very difficult time for the Troop as this family had been very involved with the Troop for the past 10 years, both parents were adult leaders, and two of his brothers had made Eagle in the Troop.

This particular Scout had always been a challenge and had behavioral issue which we did the best to accommodate, and on retrospect, overlooked a too many times. His mother had always been keenly interested in seeing all her boy be Eagle. I was shocked when I called and told her what her son had done, her only question was, "Does this mean he can't get Eagle?"

Anyway, after the BOR when this Scout was expelled, the family stalked out in tears and anger and we had not heard from them at all... until last night. The mom called and said her son had been seeing a therapist, and Council had decided he could join another Troop. She wants us to send all his Troopmaster records to the new Troop.

I'm totally shocked. This kid was a real Eddie Haskel (Leave it to Beaver) who could behave exactly like adults expected him to when he was around adults, but then become the exact opposite when out of sight and earshot of adults. Watching this kind of behavior over the four years he was in the Troop makes me think he completely hood-wink the therapist (but I realize I could be wrong on this and he may have become a complete new person). Add to this a mom who is absolutely driven to see him make Eagle. Oh, and add to this that the Troop he is apparently joining has a reputation of being an Eagle Mill.

The idea of this kid making Eagle after what he did makes me sick. He really is the kind of person who could do what is being discussed in another thread... "Our current Negative news-worthy scout." Combine this with a mom will stop at nothing to seen him make Eagle, and that's one way you could get an Eagle that may behave extremely anti-socially.

Anyway, should I contact the Scoutmaster in the new Troop and let him know that this boy was expelled from our Troop and why he was expelled? Is it any of my business at this point? Could such an intervention be seen as libelous - especially if the Troop decides not to accept him based information I provided?

Prices are amazing, but not a lot of info about the tent.

The BSA Eagle Tent looks alot like the Coleman Trailblazer, but likely does not have the bathtub floor. However, the rain fly does go all the way to the ground! And only $33.97!

But decide quick, as the sale ends 3/17.

Has anyone purchased one?? It would be nice to hear back from a satisfied user!!

Scout Spirit is certainly a big part of the issue here, especially connected to hours earned at the service project. And while part of this may be communication of expectations to both the parents and Scout, I still see advancement as a critical issue here.

Dad is not part of the Patrol!! Boy Scouts is not Cub Scouts!!!

If Dad is along and in the tent and with his kid every inch of the way, then it's Cub camping not Boy Scout camping. If Dad is there helping his son with the tent and the meal, it does not count and it should not be signed off! The Scouts in the Patrol have to do it to earn it!!! And unrolling a tent is simply not enough.

No, do not boot him from the Troop. Let him and his parents know that hence forth he is part of a Scout Troop, not a Cub Pack and he must act accordingly -- Dad is not a Scout, not in his Patrol, and not part of the Troop. If the Dad goes on a camping trip, he is in the adult area and stays away from the Scouts -- especially his son! Dad sleeps in his own tent and the son bunks with Scouts in his Patrol in a tent he helped pitch.

If they choose to stay with the Troop and abide by those rules, great! Everyone will benefit, especially the Scout! If they choose to leave, great! The Troop will be better off with out a family that cannot let their son be a Scout.

Thinking about this, I'm not sure how this kid could have earned his Tenderfoot, let alone almost 2nd Class.

Did he spend a night on a patrol or troop camping trip sleeping in a tent he helped pitch? Doesn't sound like it, as sleeping with Dad doesn't count. And then did he assist in preparing and cooking of a Patrol meal? It seems like the answer is "no". So how did he earn Tenderfoot?

And as for 2nd Class, did he participate in five separate Troop or Patrol activities and camp overnight at least twice? Without Dad? Again, sleeping with Dad (or in a hotel) does not count. Did he plan and cook a Patrol breakfast or lunch? Not if Dad is doing the cooking!

As others have said, there are some real leadership issues here! Lay down the same law as for every other Scout out there, and if these folks turn tail and head for the door, the Troop will be better off without them.

Wow.

Thanks for the extra info Basement.

This is so beyond a helicopter parent I don't even know what to call it! A gunship parent?

Dad has to be told that he is completely out. Hit the road Jack! No more coming on camping trips or to summer camp. This kid must be able to swim or sink on his own.

Yep, as SM, I would challenge this Scout on a number of items, including Scout Spirit. If he can advance based on what he's done and his behavior, what are the other Scouts to think? Why should they have to work if he doesn't? And steak???!!!

Seriously, if this keeps up this kid will have a very hard time standing on his own two feet! Better to have a few bumps now rather than a tragic fall when he's older. As much as his dad may think he's helping his kid, he's actually doing the opposite.

When a Scout behaves in a way that is clearly outside of the Scout Law, then he is having problems with the Scout Spirit. To me, the Scout Spirit is really living the Scout Law.

The Scout you describe clearly has issues that merit a SMC, especially the service hours. What rank is the BOR for?

If he does not sleep with his Patrol, where does he sleep? Why does he not want to eat camp food? What does he eat?

Is the real issue here the Scout or the dad? Who enables him to sleep & eat elsewhere? And why does he even have a choice?

I know Eagle732 is most likely on his way... for the rest of us who are not on the trail, but would like to be....

http://gizmodo.com/#!5781157/walk-the-appalachian-trails-2200-miles-in-under-five-minutes

"Walk the Appalachian Trails 2,200 Miles In Under Five Minutes

Kevin Gallagher spent six months hiking the Appalachian Trail's 2,200 miles, through snow and sun and wind fellow travelers. Lucky for you, he condensed the entire journey into a remarkable 4:37 of some of the most gorgeous stop-motion nature that the US has to offer."

One thing rjscout... your wife may not fully understand how different Boy Scout & Cub Scouts are. Your son will be part of a Patrol, under the guidance of a Patrol Leader and Senior Patrol Leader. As an ASM, you will be present, but very removed from constant and direct interactions with your son.

I've had three sons now in the Troop as ASM and SM, and we all understand that I will ignore them in the same way was any other Scout in the Troop - that is, "Ask your Patrol Leader or the Senior Patrol Leader". Believe me, he will very much get his own time in the Troop with you working and contributing to the Troop from a distance.

It looks like we'll have 7 crossing over from our feeder Pack this year, and I am really looking to having a couple parents and trained leaders crossing over as well. As SM, I would be very disappointed and a bit taken a back if one decided not to become a leader because "he wanted to give his son his own time". All of the Adult Leaders and several of the Committee Members have sons in our Troop.

Let her know it's only an hour a week... ;-)

As an ASM, you can be part of the Troop, but leave your son plenty of room to grow and develop. I know, I've done it with three sons!

And let her know you're not going to the the SM, and thus will not be totally engulfed in Troop activities. Further, as an ASM you will have the freedom to pick and choose which activities you are involved in.

If the SM wants you, I highly recommend you go!

Good Luck!!

The best gift I ever saw given to a Den Leader was a really nice Dutch Oven lid lifter...

The Mair lifters are very nice, $12 to $14

http://mairdutchovenlifter.com/

Lodge $15

https://secure.lodgemfg.com/storefront/product1_new.asp?menu=gear&idProduct=4018

Anything more would be a bit uncomfortable...

It really depends on the tent... some Coleman tents really have very minimal fly's which do need tarp augmentation for windy rain, but the Trailblazer fly goes all most all the way to the ground... not bad for only $69!!

http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___28402

And yes, Cabela's tents are amazing... but only if you have the $500+ to pay for it! My Mountain Hardware Trango 2 is the best tent I've ever owned, but it was $300 on sale!

For inexpensive, I'd still go with Coleman.

I concur with the Coleman recommendations... the waterproof "bathtub" is especially nice is wet conditions. I have several Coleman tents at home and the Troop uses Coleman dome tents almost exclusively. They aren't perfect, and are no way as good as my Mountain Hardware tent, but are fast & easy to put up, keep the wind, water, & bugs out, and are surprisingly durable.

Campmor has a good selection and always a few on sale.

Gary...

Whilst I concur with the importance of Round Table and District involvement, as SM, the Troop and Troop program are my primary focus. If we have enough notice of a district event, our Troop is happy to volunteer for staffing and other work beyond attendance. However, with a full time job, SM with a very active Boy Scout Troop, and camping adviser for my daughter's Girl Scout Troop, I simply do not have any time to get involved with the District.

As Oak Tree and others have said, the District should be able to communicate electronically and plan events in a way units can participate even if they are unable to attend RT. Per my OP, our District is struggling with this.

However, I'm not going to alter the Troop meeting or program to try and work with the District on this. Right now we have a very solid Troop program and group of enthusiastic Scouts who are very active in the program, and I'm not going do anything to risk that.

evry -

It really depends on the boys as to how well they'll do on the hike. If you have a group of boys who are bursting to be Scouts, then they may do great and have a blast!

As long as everyone has good hiking boots and enough water & food, you may well be good to go. I've seen how quickly blisters form in the unprepared, and it is no fun for anyone.

Hope you guys have a great hike!

No. They are not Boy Scouts. They are still registered with and part of the Cub Scout Pack. Therefore, the activity cannot be used for advancement.

I suggest you do a fun activity with the Webelos and their parents. A five mile hike may be a bit much for some of they younger guys. You wouldn't want their first experience with the Troop to be a bad one, especially if they lack the proper equipment and someone gets blisters or runs out of water.

We have annual early April camping trip with the Webelos just before their late April Crossover as a way for the Webelos and families to get to know the Troop. We do a service project on Saturday morning, then have afternoon Scout games and skill building for the Webelos. Each Patrol in the Scout Troop sets up a station of activities, and the Webelos and parents break up into small groups and rotate around the stations. This gives the Webelos and their parents an idea of what the Troop is like and have a fun time. They camp out with their parents & cook as a Webelos Den, then join with the Boy Scouts for the campfire program.

Gary - I agree, Round Table is very beneficial - I went to almost every one for nearly nine years, until they changed the RT night to our Troop meeting night about a year ago. They seem to change the RT night every 3-4 years, and will likely change it again at some point in the future. When it's again on a non-Troop meeting night, I'll happily go back.

However, our Troop has been meeting at the same place on the same night for 63 years... that won't change. It is deeply carved in stone.

Official Boy Scout Garrison Hat

My brothers were all in Scouts when I was growing up (a Cub) and I have fond memories of them wearing these. They would take the hat off when they came inside, fold it, and slide it under their belt.

Granted, no sun protection, but very retro and very cool.

Here's one... http://www.etsy.com/listing/48218475/vintage-boy-scout-garrison-hat-1950s

Official Boy Scout Garrison Hat

My brothers were all in Scouts when I was growing up (a Cub) and I have fond memories of them wearing these. They would take the hat off when they came inside, fold it, and slide it under their belt.

Granted, no sun protection, but very retro and very cool.

Here's one... http://www.etsy.com/listing/48218475/vintage-boy-scout-garrison-hat-1950s

Gary - You got me on that.

I do not personally go as RT is the same night as our Troop meetings. However, we do have a Committee Member attend and report back. So this and other events could well have been announced, but just didn't make back to the Troop.