SMT224

"Werfen Sie nicht das Kind mit dem Bade ausschtten"

-- Thomas Murner, 1512

A father and son stand on a hill and look down on a vast forest.

The son looks at the forest and imagines adventure! He knows his friends are in there, and he wants to join them. He sees himself climbing trees and rocks. He sees himself exploring streams, and camping in beautiful meadows with his friends. He looks at the forest and sees himself sitting around a fire, talking about adventures, staring into the flames and embers, and then looking up at starry expanse silhouetted by the trees. He likes what sees and wants to go into the forest.

The father sees something entirely different. He knows who owns the forest, and he doesnt like him. Hes heard the Forest owner wont let certain people eat in his Forest Restaurant. Even though its only a few people, he hates the idea that anyone would be excluded from the wonderful Forest food. Because of this, he wont eat in the restaurant, and insists his family not go there either.

The son looks up and says, Can I go Dad? Can I go into the forest?

The father looks down at his son and shakes his head. No. I dont like the owner of this Forest, so well have nothing to do with it. Now lets go home. With sadness the son follows his father home, looking over his shoulder at the forest and thinking of his friends having adventures without him.

When they get home, the son grabs a bag of chips and plops down in front of the TV, as usual. His father turns on his computer and logs into the anti-Forest collation web forum and post a long rant on intolerance. Later, he wakes his son up and sends him off to bed. As he closes his eyes that night, the father feels content that he is doing the right thing fighting intolerance. After all, if this goes unchecked, who knows who will be excluded next?

From the story...

"It happened Thursday around 1 a.m. While walking down Baltimore Street, police say a car of people drove past and called the man homeless. The man responded, then tried to duck into an alley when he saw the car turn around."

This could have happened anywhere and does not appear to be directly linked to hiking the AT. It sounds like the kind of confrontation that unfortunately can happen at 1 in the morning... a car full of kids calls someone a name who responds and then an altercation ensues. Tragic, but I do not see this as a red flag for AT hikers. It is likely the perps will be IDed in a small community like Gettysburg.

Yep NJCubScouter, you are right. My own views are clearly part of how I see the names he put on the list.

So yes, I will sit down and talk with him (tomorrow night in fact) and hope to get a better idea why he wants me to send letters to these folks.

Goodness BSA24!

Whats the point of your rant? That the Scoutmaster should not ever send an Eagle announcement? Fine, so dont. But dont turn your guns on me because I do so and because its the tradition and culture of our Troop. If you believe the Eagle should do it all, then by all means make that the tradition in your Troop. But dont do your mommy smothering thing on me because I believe otherwise. Back off! How you can link this to all that is wrong with kids today really is ridiculous.

How did this discussion go from me sending Eagle letters to me planning the ECOH? In our Troop thats entirely up to the Eagle Scout and his family. Since this was never discussed in my OP or subsequent discussion, I dont see how you made that leap.

And sending an Eagle letter makes the Eagle Award about me? Seriously? It means Im proud of his achievement and have no problem sharing that pride. Whats the problem with that? It hardly turns it in to my award.

How in the world do you think it will make him a man by asking him to kindly invite you to it, and tell him you would be honored to give him his badge if he will allow it. Sounds more like itll make him a spoiled brat!

Yea, its about him, but the ECOH is also about the Troop, his parents, and all the leaders who helped him get to Eagle. Plus it's about all the other Scouts in the Troop who helped him with his project and camped with him over all the years. It's not just about him, it's about him and everyone in the Troop who helped him make Eagle.

Beavah - I understand and appreciate your comments.

Thanks.

BSA 24, I hardly see announcing the achievement of Eagle for a Scout I've watched since he crossed over from Cubs "helicopter" or "mother-smothering" behavior as you so condescendingly have remarked in you comments. Perhaps the tradition of your Troop is to stand aside and allow the Eagle Scout to send what ever letter he chooses to whom ever he wants and then to conduct his ECOH as he see fit. If this is the case, I wish you and your Troop only the best. As such, I would not presume to be so arrogant as to tell you how to conduct your Troop celebrations and traditions. If you believe that the Scoutmaster should not proudly announce that a Scout has achieved Eagle, then dont do it. But dont tell me how I should conduct my business or what I perceive to be within the scope of my authority. Quite frankly, I think the Scoutmaster has not only the authority, but an obligation to make such an announcement.

Basementdweller what are you saying? That because I wrote a proud letter announcing the achievement of Eagle, that I should not be invited to the ECOH. Why would you make such a comment?

Excuse me BSA24?

Stop helicoptering? What are you talking about?

Who should send out a proud letter announcing the achievement of Eagle if not the Scoutmaster?

Are you suggesting that the Eagle Scout himself sends out such an announcement?

When one of our Scouts reaches the rank of Eagle, and the date for the ECOH has been decided, I send out a proud letter announcing the achievement. This letter goes to the President, our Congressional members, local elected officials, and a few others.

On this particular occasion, the Scout gave me a list of people he wanted me to send the Eagle announcement letter to. The list included a number of politically extreme and rabid commentators, some rock&roll/indy musicians with very controversial lyrics, and a number of sports stars, some of whom have been publicly involved in criminal or abusive activities.

As I look over the list I really have to wonder how appropriate sending such an announcement to a group that appears to me the exact opposite of what Scouting is all about. The commentary, the lyrics, and the actions of this group seem to the polar opposite of the Scout Law. I can't imagine that they'd even take the time to reply, and if they did, would they send a letter of congratulations... or use it as an opportunity to demean Scouting?

While I would prefer not to, I see no other option than to sit down with this Eagle Scout and discuss the list, and inquire why he believes these individuals should receive a letter. Is it that he just likes them, or does he really believe they should know of his achievement? This is a more than a bit surprising, and does makes me wonder about this Scout.

Have others encountered such a predicament? In my 12 years of sending out Eagle letters I sent many a letter to sporting organizations and professional associations, but never had a request for such an extreme group as this.

Just back, and we had a great summer camp experience.

But, two things we've got to do better next year:

-- Medicals! Everyone gets them in on time and filled out correctly. Hey, I can dream, can't?

-- Pre-requisites. Do them in April & May. June is too late.

Likely others, but those are the two big ones now.

I would love to see a BSA uniform system like the Army & Air Force fatigues you see in airports where there are huge patches of Velcro on the sleeves and pocket areas to add & change patches as need be. Then all the badges & POR patches would come pre-Velcroed and we could add things quickly.

As it is, we encourage Scouts to sew patches & badges on their own uniform, and have sewing nights twice a year just after elections.

I have attended summer camps where the Camp Director or Camp Ranger had their family with them, including a number of kids - usually grade school age and younger. And this worked out fine - the kids knew where home was and where they could go and couldn't go. They were usually to be found around their house, the Camp office, or the dining hall. They stayed out of the merit badge areas and camp sites. Never caused any problems.

That's not what the issue being discussed here is. The kid at issue in this post clearly did not know his place and was disruptive in merit badge areas. Had he just stayed at the Troop's campsite or under the close supervision of mom or dad, it likely wouldn't have been an issue. The problem is that the Scouts taking merit badges were made to act as baby sitters for the kid, and had to take care of him when they should have been concentrating on their merit badge work. Unless mom and dad were willing to take care of the kid and keep him from being disruptive, they should not have brought him.

shortridge, the problem is not so much all kids - especially not (in my experience) staff kids, but kids that come with a Troop where the expectation is that they will have free reign and can be cared for by the Camp or Scouts. Boy Scout camp is for Boy Scouts -- not babysitting younger kids who are unable to be left on their own.

Inappropriate and selfish. The little one should not have been at Boy Scout camp.

SM and Committee should have stopped it before it started. Is this ASM a bully? He needs to know Boy Scout camp is not family camp.

If the Troop wants to have a family camping trip and bring all the kids, fine. Go somewhere everyone can have fun and enjoy camping. But a Boy Scout summer camp is not the place.

Our Troop had a tradition of family camping, but we finally put a stop to it because it completely undermined the Patrols -- especially for cooking and eating. Families would invite their son to eat with them, because after all, "it's his favorite". So that Scout decided he didn't need to cook, eat, and of course not clean up with his Patrol - which would make the other Patrol members sore. Especially while they ate mac and cheese and watched him eat steak with his family! And then mom would be confused and upset, as she was "just trying to take care of her son". After much grumpiness all around, we decided a Scout camping trip is for Scouts, not families. And it works much much better! Same for summer camp. Leave the little brother at home!

Just discovered a bunch of Scouts filled out 1991 printing Blue Cards. There were also a few 2003 cards that got filled out.

Does anyone know if it matters? Are older cards considered obsolete?

We have since gotten a new package of Blue Cards from the Scout Store and tossed all the older ones.

Thanks!

Multiple copies are critical for the medical form. We tell parents not to give us the original - only a copy. If they turn it in the day of departure, we require 3 copies. If they get it in earlier, we make 3 copies. One stays in the Troop files, one is for the camp, and one stays with me, the SM, just in case.

In your case M2C, the Troop should have verified they had a medical form for each Scout going to camp BEFORE departure! There is no excuse for such a loss!

At this point I'm just thinking about how to do better next year.

This year was a medical form bust in so many ways. Amazing how a seeming intelligent and conscientious group of parental units can utterly fail in so many ways just filling out a form. We had to call parents back in for lack of parent & Scout signatures, no immunizations listed, no medications listed, no insurance card, no doctors signature, no date of physical exam, or just nothing submitted at all. Most fixed the problem when called on it, but a few had to be called back repeatedly, and one added new mistakes each time, then lost the forms entirely. Gasp!

And as I said in the OP, this despite a significant number of messages going out since February on the importance of the medical form being filled out correctly and turned in on time. Obviously I need to rethink how to get the message across.

As many said here, a big issue is the timing of the physical exam. But if that were all, I wouldn't mind forms coming in a few days before camp or even the day of -- if they were filled out correctly! I almost feel like we need to hold a class for the parents on how to fill out the forms!!!

National, if your monitoring this, perhaps you could assist by offering some kind of guidance we could pass on to Scout parents on filling out the medical form correctly... or maybe a springtime article in Boys Life so Scouts could help their parents understand the importance of medical forms and help do them fill thing in correctly. Or is there any online guidance we could link our parents to? Like a little class or powerpoint that goes step-by-step?

Couple things...

1. I think the article has merit, and is worthy of serious consideration. But, all is not lost! Scouting is a great antidote for such an ailment. By putting teenage boys in a situation that forces them to be responsible for menu planning, shopping, meal preparation, & clean up - as well as packing their personal gear, setting up their living quarters, and taking care of themselves - we are enabling these spoiled rotten kids to learn responsibility and understand the consequences of failure. An Anthropologist studying a population of Scouts vs. a population of non-Scout teenagers would find that the Scouts are far more capable of taking care of themselves and contributing to the household than the non-Scouts.

2. I fully expect that the looming economic disaster will put us in a depression far worse than what the U.S. experienced in the 1930's, and the options for spoiling kids will diminish significantly. Here again, the lessons learned in Scouting can be good preparation such a scenario.

So Lisabob... what were the hot peppers and duct tape used for?

rldavis -

I agree 100% with other who have posted here -- you are the Scoutmaster and have the power to set the tone. Move slowly and deliberately and you will be amazed how much can be accomplished!

When I became SM, the Troop was steeped in a number of traditions that did not much resemble Scouting as it should be done. It was an adult run Troop with declining numbers and almost no Scout participation and no Patrols -- just a bunch of Scouts! The "Committee" was composed of a bunch of guys who had grown up in the Troop and did things the was they had always been done.

I went through as much training as I could, and then slowly started making changes. Rarely were the changes embraced by the old guys, but the Scouts responded favorably, and our numbers doubled and tripled in a few years.

The first thing I did was create Patrols, and then an active Patrol Leaders Council. It took about 2 years of monthly meetings before this became part of the Troop culture.

Now, anytime there is an issue -- like the one you are dealing with now, I first bring it up to the PLC and let them discuss and make some decisions on what they think would work best. I discuss it with them to reach a consensus, and take it to the Committee where it is usually adopted as Troop policy.

As others have said, get the Scouts involved! Listen to them! Discuss options with them, and work together to make a better Troop. It takes a while -- like I said, about 2 years -- for the PLC to become part of the Troop culture, but the Scouts really appreciate having their voice heard!

CCbytrickery - the payment idea would likely get their attention, but still won't help a kid without a medical.

BSA24 - Not so much a policy as the reality right now! The camp will not allow a Scout to stay without the medical form. As to the document to be signed with payment... interesting idea, but not sure if it would stand up in court any better than all the emails and summer camp guidance we've provided. So far that has not come up.

Not trying to be harsh, just passing on camp rules! I'm frustrated that some don't seem to pay attention until it's almost too late. Just had a call from another in the "10%" scrambling as Lisabob describes -- we'll see if they get it together! They're supposed to drop it off tomorrow. I told them at this point we need them to make 3 copies!

We've been sending monthly emails since February, had parent meetings in April and May, made lot's of announcements at Troop meetings -- all stating the same thing: medicals for Scouts going to summer camp must be turned in no later than June 21. We have about 80% with another 10% promised to be delivered this week.

The other 10%? We seem to have a small group of parents that apparently believe the rules do not apply to them. They seem astounded and quite taken aback when we let them know there's consequences to their apparent inattention. In this case, that their son will not be allowed at camp without a medical filled out correctly with all the appropriate signatures.

"Why didn't you tell us!", one said to me in angry accusation and then with a look of desperation, "What am I supposed to do now?". I just looked at her in amazement.

Oh, well. No medical? No camp, no refund.

Too harsh? What can you do?

Washington Post article about a local Troop celebrating its 100th anniversary. A good news piece that made the front page!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/washingtons-oldest-scout-troop-also-its-most-well-connected/2012/06/23/gJQAGNQOyV_print.html

"If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."

-- Henry Ford

Actually want people wanted was to go from point A to point B. But they couldn't think beyond doing it by horse - that's what they knew.

If we ask what a bunch of teenage boys say they want or think they want, it likely won't be Scouting. Or school. Or a balanced diet.

But take a bunch of video game players on a camping trip and hike up a 3,000 foot mountain, see all kinds of wild life, gaze upon an amazing view from the top, run out of water, find water, filter water, get back to camp tired but happy, go for a swim in a nearby lake, cook a hearty dinner, sit back and watch the flames of a campfire, and finally go to sleep under a millions of stars - you will find that they liked just fine. But if you ask them what they want to do, such an adventure may not come up.

The core of Scouting - lot's of camping and adventure - all under the umbrella of the Scout Law - is what they need. It's the balanced diet kids need to grow big and strong.

We cannot make all kinds of changes based on what we think will bring in the highest numbers and ignore the core of Scouting.

And let's not have a fit 'cause Scouting is not for every boy. Some just can't stand being away from mom & dad. Others really don't like the camping and hiking. So not everyone has to be a Scout.

We meet every week for 90 minutes through out the year and go camping every month except December. The big difference between summer and other times of the year is that our camping trips are longer - we have a 3 day outing in June, then a week of summer camp in July, and a 6 day camping / backpack outing in August. In September, we go back to regular weekend camping trips. Because three of the four meetings in a month are focused on the camping trip, we don't even slow down in summer.

My son got his Eagle in our Troop in 2006. He is now an ASM. He goes on 2-3 camping trips a year and to summer camp. But he does not bring his girl friend!

I would not want him coming just as my son or an aged out Eagle from the Troop - he is registered as an adult leader for a reason. Not only is it the right thing to do, but as an ASM he can work with Scouts on advancement and be there as part of the Troop. Maybe it's just our Troop culture, but once a Scout ages out, if he wants to do things with the Troop, we make sure he's a registered leader.

Clearly this cannot happened with the issue raised in the OP. In which case, I don't think he needs to come on Troop camping trips. -- especially with his boy friend!