shortridge

SR540, It's certainly not a scandalous deal. I just question why BSA partners with an organization that - judging by its own published materials and website - believes that legal residents who are not US citizens are not able to volunteer with their child's organization. BSA does not have a similar stance, so why is it OK for its self-declared special partner to do so? To the bend-over-backwards apologists: That policy was enumerated several times on its website and in leadership forms. I've pointed them out so you can see for yourselves. That is not an error, but a planned, repeated policy decision. That is only one of the many problems with AHG's relationship with BSA. Note I did not say a problem with AHG. That group is free to sink or swim on its own. But BSA should have no partnership with such a group. BDPT, Would you want your daughter joining a group of, say, Wiccan scouts who welcomed everyone but spent copious amounts of time talking about the Goddess while working on an astronomy badge? Your daughter is certainly free to join - but truly? Honestly? If a group goes against your family's religious values, you'd still be OK with her joining? Pack: I don't agree with everything BadenP is saying, but there's no need to shut the thread down just because some people disagree.

A mistake would be a misspelling or a broken link. The citizenship policy is stated in multiple places, including several forms, and was on its main FAQ page for apparently a good amount of time. That's not an error. It is against U.S. law to require employees to be citizens v. legal residents. That doesn't apply to volunteers, but apparently AHG believed until recently that citizens are superior to legal residents, disregarding the opinion of Congress. That's anti-immigrant to me. What reasons can you see to ban legal residents from volunteering?

I really don't want personal experience. I take what they say at face value, and that's it. Matter of fact, I can't get much personal experience with AHG - my daughter can't join, because she's Jewish and I don't want her to be preached at, and I can't volunteer, not being Christian myself. If you don't allow legal immigrants to serve, as some of AHG's leadership forms still state and it's website stated until this week, that's anti-immigrant in my book. If AHG didn't realize the difference between citizenship and legal status, that's pure incompetence. So either way ...

BDPT, AHG has updated that line since I quoted it to add the legal resident information. Google confirms this with a cached version dated March 16 (http://bit.ly/HI7fjB): An AHG volunteer must be at least 21 years of age and a citizen of the United States. In other words, they got caught (at either being anti-immigrant or incompetent) and then quickly tried to wipe away the evidence. You do indeed have access to the forms. Go to Google and type in the following search line: site:www.ahgonline.org "citizen of the united states" I'm basing my criticism of AHG on its own public materials and website, not on any special knowledge. I'm assuming that its public information is accurate, which seems entirely reasonable.

I know things change, problems arise, etc., but the rules still have to be adhered to. It could be that the youth changed the plan - they do run the show in Venturing - but YPT is not optional. It's the adult leader's responsibility to make sure it's followed.

There's also this from the Guide to Safe Scouting: "Separate housing must be provided for male and female participants. An adult male leader must be housed with the male participants. An adult female leader must be housed with the female participants." So that's two violations by my count - no male/female leadership and no separate sleeping areas. Very bad practice.

So you don't want honest feedback? Ok, then.

Seattle, As you were one of the folks here strongly supporting "twinned" programs, I would have thought you'd have more to back up your position than "probably other documents." The MMS is what AHG and its supporters have relied upon to tout its public "relationship" with BSA. It only addresses Venturing units, with a side mention of Boy Scout troops and zero mention of Cubs. That's a fact. I know AHG isn't all that concerned with facts or consistency, but as Scouts, we should be.

"He was describin' how much investment national was makin' in the new effort ..." Yes, but will National make the same investments in the other councils/areas? I'd also question how one can gauge "apparent success" based on a project that's still in progress.

For those who want to "twin" or create "brother-sister" AHG and Cub Scout units, take a look at the MMS you're so fond of: "Resolved, that the American Heritage Girls, Inc. and the Boy Scouts of America will work with each other ... to cooperate in establishing American Heritage Girl units and Boy Scout Venturing units as an expression of the organizational values of the organizations." No mention of Cub packs.

BDPT, Repeating what I posted six pages ago: As for the whole citizen/leader thing - there's contradictory and confusing information on the website. >> Parents are told: "An AHG volunteer must be at least 21 years of age and a citizen of the United States." www.ahgonline.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=41554 >> According to the agreements leaders must sign (located on the site through a Google search), unit leaders and assistants must be citizens, while Troop Shepherds, treasurers and vice-coordinators may be citizens or legal residents. So yes, there IS a leader citizenship requirement. ------------------- As for AHG being "open to all girls," that's bunk. AHG is all about the Great Commission, spreading Jesus' message to the world. And then there's the Statement of Faith, which reads in part: We believe that there is One Triune God Father, Jesus Christ His one and only Son, and the Holy Spirit Creator of the universe and eternally existent. We believe the Holy Scriptures (Old/New Testament) to be the inspired and authoritative Word of God. Yeah, Jews are really going to agree that Jesus is the son of God and that their Bible is actually called the Old Testament. Good luck with that. As I've said, I have no problem with AHG standing on its own. I simply disagree vehemently with the outright falsehoods and blatant misinformation that it and its supporters are spreading, especially under the guise of being some sort of partner with the Boy Scouts of America.

If you think some fairly mild, constructive criticism is launching missiles, you need to spend some more time around here. That's tiddlywinks, my friend. If National wants feedback, it would do better than just posting email addresses inside a PDF file that's darned hard to locate. Yes, I'm glad they're reaching out now. But there are so many more areas in which they could improve. I'm very glad you stopped by. But don't expect kudos and thanks for finally creating two poorly publicized email addresses and a Twitter account. That's less than the bare minimum of what your pros should have done several years ago, and I suspect you know that. I'm a local volunteer. National has a whole team of paid staffers who are supposed to handle communication. Their expertise far outweighs any advice I could offer. If they want ideas, all they'd have to do is lurk here for a month.

There is no national, standardized policy on "what counts," but instead that's generally left up to the unit. Here's the official national guidance, from the Guide to Advancement: Basic to the lessons in Scouting, especially regarding citizenship, service projects are a key element in the Journey to Excellence recognition program for councils, districts, and units. They should be a regular and critical part of the program in every pack, troop, team, crew, and ship. Service projects required for Second Class, Star, and Life ranks may be conducted individually or through participation in patrol or troop efforts. They also may be approved for those assisting on Eagle Scout projects. Second Class requires a minimum of one hour on an approved project. An approval is important because it calls on a boy to think about what might be accepted, and to be prepared to discuss it. It is up to the unit to determine how this is done. In many troops, it is the Scoutmasters prerogative. Personally, if I were the one making the decision, I'd say that the spring cleaning day for the chartered organization shouldn't count. That type of work should be a natural part of the thanks the troop gives to its sponsor. But that's just me.

NACAP - I'm not the only person on here who thinks that National has done a generally lousy job of communication. I'm all for opening up and using new avenues, such as Twitter. But there's no need to pat anyone in Irving on the back for finally discovering a 6-year-old social network, especially not when its primary communications mechanism - scouting.org - is so pitiful. Nor is there a need, as you did, to castigate your fellow volunteers for spreading misinformation. Consider that if National's publications (and email addresses) were easy to find (and easy to interpret), there wouldn't be so many questions on these forums. Believe me, I understand what it's like for an institution to revamp its communications systems, especially when most people are not thinking in communications-first terms. They want to do their job - whether it be finance, recruiting, advancement or program - and think of public or customer communications as a low priority. I'm in a project right now redoing my employer's website, and it's posing some significant challenges. But the institution first has to acknowledge that there's an issue, and want to fix it. Since you're advising the Advancement pros, you might want to suggest that when they put stuff out on Twitter, they include links to the source material. Whoever's in charge started off by tweeting answers to FAQs without bothering to mention what the questions were. Context is king! Also have them watch out for jargon - most parents don't know what the GTA is, and I daresay quite a few Scouters can't keep up with all the acronym babble, either. Communication is a two-way street. We have a National pro on here who gets his back up every time someone questions or ridicules a safeaty policy. If the advancement staffers - and those advising them - can't take some constructive criticism, then don't ask for it. I critique because I care. ====== Addendum: As an illustrative example of the problems with National's website, I attempted to locate the GTA without using the search function (which I couldn't, as it was broken) or Google. None of the links on the homepage easily led me to a section for advancement. Selecting the Volunteer tab means you have to then select something called "ScoutSource," which is apparently where National just stashes a lot of information, to eventually get to the GTA. None of it is intuitive. The average parent or Scouter seeking that document would (a) first have to know that there exists something called the GTA, and (b) know how to search within a website using an external search engine such as Google.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

These may point you in the right direction: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/multicultural/pdf/523-067_WB.pdf http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Multicultural/literature/multicultural_markets.aspx

MIB: I dunno ... I sure learned something when my patrol cooked hot dogs on our first camping trip. Huddled around a boiling pot of water on a bitterly cold day at Assateague Island, hungrily waiting for our lunch, we learned (after being told by a kindly ASM who walked by) that sonofagun, you CAN cook more than one hot dog at a time. (My mother still laughs uproariously about that story more than two decades later.) Packsaddle: Wikipedia says (yeah, I know, I know ...) that it can't be sold directly to consumers, but is rather simply an additive. I just spent a few minutes at the website of the main manufacturer, Beef Products Inc., and couldn't find any reference to consumer purchases.

Ah, more sleight of hand and misdirection from AHG! Thanks for the link, AHGnBSAMom. AHG says: "The BSA has a unique relationship with the American Heritage Girls (AHG). Unlike MOUs with other organizations that we work with to serve youth, the BSA and the AHG signed a Memorandum of Mutual Support in June 2009." "Unique relationship"? Err, no. This may be a unique relationship for AHG, but not for BSA. A MMS may be out of the ordinary for AHG, which apparently usually signs MOUs, but to suggest BSA signing the MMS creates a special relationship between the two organizations is a flat-out lie. Yes, I bolded that for intentional emphasis. Here's the MMS with AHG: http://scouting.org/filestore/pdf/AmericanHeritageGirls.pdf Now compare it to the MMS' that exist with a host of other organizations: The Zeta Psi Fraternity: http://scouting.org/filestore/pdf/44_ZetaPsi.pdf American Cadet Alliance: http://scouting.org/filestore/pdf/06_CadetAlliance.pdf Knights of Columbus: http://scouting.org/filestore/pdf/21_KofC.pdf AMVETS: http://scouting.org/filestore/pdf/amvets.pdf The Islamic Society of North America: http://scouting.org/filestore/pdf/18_Islamic.pdf Oh, heck, I'll just let you look up the rest: http://bit.ly/HEqZGz So unless Irving is willing to enter into this type of "partnership" with a girls' scout-like organization based on Islamic faith and practices - and let's face it, the old white Christian Republican men at National would have a collective apoplectic fit if such a group were to arise - it should sever all ties with AHG. ==================== Postscriptum: "American Heritage Girls were represented at the 2010 National Scout Jamboree." ... as were the U.S. Army and President Barack Obama. Does representation at the Jamboree mean the Army and the White House automatically have a special relationship with the BSA that allow them to mooch off Irving's resources? Of course not. I have to admit that I admire AHG's use of language to create meaning where there is none. It's very careful and planned, almost artistic. The people in Cincy are excellent communicators (if we ignore the inconsistencies in their citizen-only leader policy documented earlier in this thread). BSA could take a lesson from them in that arena.

By the way, NACAP - Those email addresses you posted? I searched on Scouting.org to see how National was advertising them. I found advancement.team only listed in the GTA and in the Advancement News publication. The merit.badge account I couldn't find posted anywhere. Neither is posted on the @AdvBSA Twitter page. So how are people supposed to use them to communicate when they don't know about them? (Oh, and those searches I did on Scouting.org? I had to use Google to do a site search, because the Scouting.org search function gave me a runtime error.)

BSA's web problem isn't an IT issue by any stretch of the imagination. OK, perhaps they could use a better search function. But the main problem is one of content and organization. The site is simply atrocious, apparently having been managed by someone who doesn't understand how the public navigates the Internet. BSA needs a good editor, a communications professional rather than a Scouting professional, to take charge and kick people in the butt rather than leaving content decisions up to the individual divisions and sections. If the Advancement folks need to get information out "quicker," as NACAP suggests, it already has multiple platforms and systems through which to do so. (Roundtables, anyone? Email newsletters? Council newsletters? Scouting.org? Magazines? Blogs?) It's a sign of Irving's incompetence that it apparently feels that it has to turn to a third-party system to contact its members. NACAP, I know Scouter.com has had some tech-y problems lately, but consider that it's paid for by a guy out of his own pocket, doesn't charge a fee and is moderated by volunteers. BSA is a fee-based mega-million-dollar national organization with highly paid staff and tons of resources. You really can't compare the two, even with a smiley-face. That's more than a bit unfair.(This message has been edited by shortridge)

The Delaware camp in the list actually refers to Henson Scout Reservation, in Maryland, part of the Del-Mar-Va Council. That's my home camp. There is a great trail system there ... but I sighed deeply when I read the notice from the council. In recent years, since I served on staff, the camp has added John Deere "gator"-style battery-powered vehicles to help staff ferry equipment around camp. In my day, we used to use hand-carts to haul our water jugs, boxes of rope, hatchets, etc., around.

"Bottom line for me, however, is that I'm still in strong support of AHG's strong program focused on faith, values, leadership, and integrity. It's a good partner for BSA." And I'm still in strong opposition to AHG's program of exclusion, misleading statements and in-your-face religion. I think they're an awful partner for BSA.

> Thanks for the advice, Rooster! As an aside, I did Girl Scout leader training in case my daughter's troop needed an extra leader. I've not been able to help as much as I wanted to because of my work schedule and when the troop meets, but I've never encountered this anti-male hostility that others describe. The trainer kind of blinked when I walked in the room, but everyone was very friendly and welcoming. But I guess there are a few bad apples in every bunch.

What is a camp staff POR? Do you get patches with your job title at this camp? I was once in your position - I wore my staff uniform year-round, because I was closer to my fellow staffers than I ever would be to members of my troop. That was my justification, anyway. I was wrong - I was looking for an excuse to look cool and stand out. But it was a poor example for the Scouts in my troop. In my experience, and opinion, camp staffers should represent the camp, not their home unit, even if that home unit is a Venturing Crew composed largely of staffers. So rank, knots, council strip, silver loops, maybe the Den Chief Service Award cord if you're working with Cubs, Camp School patch in temp spot or else the current camp patch, and that's sufficient. When you're with your home unit and camp's over, you should probably wear your troop's standard uniform.(This message has been edited by Shortridge)

If an organization can't write its own application without help, that's a really sad little organization. Especially one purported to be the Second Coming of Scouting. So what's the BSA get out of that MOU? Diddly, as far as I can tell. I don't have a problem with AHG standing on its own. What I disagree with is how it has glommed on to BSA and tried to portray itself as the One True Faith when it comes to scouting for girls because of that MOU. I'd love to see the outcry if an Islamic group with an MOU tried to present itself as a full-fledged partner. I dare say AGH would be leading the charge.

As for the whole citizen/leader thing - there's contradictory and confusing information on the website. >> Parents are told: "An AHG volunteer must be at least 21 years of age and a citizen of the United States." www.ahgonline.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=41554 >> According to the agreements leaders must sign, unit leaders and assistants must be citizens, while Troop Shepherds, treasurers and vice-coordinators may be citizens or legal residents. =========== Oh - just noticed this. It's really cute how AHG stole the BSA's screening questions from its adult application. The only rephrased question is "Have you ever been charged with child neglect or abuse?" instead of the BSA's "Have you ever been charged with, or investigated or arrested for, child neglect or abuse?" I didn't know that plagiarism was a Christian value!