Sentinel947

Many people are celebrating the Stonewall Riots right now as the beginning of the gay rights movement, but the fact of the matter is that there have been modern concerted attempts going back to the Victorian age.

The book "Toward Stonewall" has large free segments on Google books that cover the Victorian movements, which mostly centered on boy love ("boy" in the Victorian sense means "teenager" in the modern), including Germany's first Scouting movement, the Wandervoegel ("migrating birds"). These Victorian movements focused on the beauty of the young male, and the power of homosexual sex in personal development. The feminist Germaine Greer has also written about this in her book The Beautiful Boy.

Gay Swedish publisher/writer Karl Andersson writes about the whitewashing tactic of the contemporary gay rights movement in his book "Gay Man's Worst Friend." Written from his personal perspective of going from gay publishing hero to zero for daring to break the image we're all being sold, Andersson explains how the contemporary gay rights movement has basically whittled down gay culture for a straight, voting audience to mean nothing more than "just like you, except with another man." Except, he tells us, that's not right at all.

Both are very interesting reads that can be bought cheap.

 

The critical mass we're at isn't really surprising. It's the product of 40 years of carefully managed whitewashing, image control, lobbying, and opposition demonizing (that last point not without plenty of help from oppositional loudmouths) toward a political ends of gay rights. Young people's concept of homosexuality has been shaped by a political machine, and that aptly. The issue is no longer engaging to me, it is (as your lunch crowd agreed) pretty much over.

What will be interesting now is seeing how long it takes for age of consent laws to be weakened and repealed, because at the same time we (as a society) have been learning not to judge people who pick up boys for sex in locker rooms and write Top 40 hits about it, we've ironically become much more conservative about teen sex (or maybe I should have said "wisely" rather than "ironically"--it depends on how much credit you give the average guy.)

Sentinel947

Sorry I don't buy the "I am persecuted, because I can't interfere and force my religious beliefs into the lives of others that I don't even personally know, and I am not free to persecute whom I deem worthy of my persecution". That argument just doesn't fly..

What about Obamacare forcing religious employers like Hospitals to provide insurance coverage to employees for services that are against the doctrines and beliefs of the institution. Alot of Liberals and Conservatives claim they don't want to legislate Morality onto other people, but they always do. If you look through history it's a constant.

Understandably many Christians who scream about being persecuted are just putting on an act, but that only makes it harder to cry foul when things actually happen, like what I mentioned above.

There are two Catholic doctrines that prevail in these debates, and it causes the Catholic Church to do what it does. Perhaps, while it will never change any of your minds, it will provide a little bit of insight, and the bigotry and persecution card will stop getting dropped.

First "Love thy neighbor" Means to Catholics that we have duty to protect our neighbors from sin. That whether or not they know it is or not, if we stand by and do nothing, we have allowed them to damn themselves.

Which brings me to the second, if one is aware of sins, or other evils being committed, and does nothing, then they are complicit in those evils.

NOW: that doesn't mean that all Catholics do this all the time. And as we've seen with clerical abuse, it gets ignored sometimes. But that doesn't change the doctrines of the Church, and it dooms the Church to fighting gay marriage down to the very end.

That all being said, I was pleased to see DOMA get struck down. and Proposition 8. Less because of gay marriage being validated than the fact that governments can't use marriage law as a way to discriminate against people they don't like, and that should be something everyone can get behind.

Sentinel947

Did I ever tell you about the 19 year old Eagle scout that couldn't tie a square knot at IOLS when I was on staff?????? His dad was his SM imagine that

Only time I discuss it is when Scouts don't understand why I go to the Catholic service instead of the Non denominational service. Or why I after grace at meal times I do the quirky Catholic things like making the sign of the cross. I despise the Non-denominational services in our council, which always end up being some sort of fuzzy Christian service. I feel bad for religious minorities (non protestants) who attend non-denominational services.

At least in our unit, Duty to God isn't really pushed. It's supported by a few of our leaders being religious emblem advisors if enough of the Scouts wish to partake in that, but we don't really push it as Adult leaders in our unit.

I think discussion of religion should not be a taboo thing. So much of the issues between religious groups (especially with teenagers) is they simply don't know what a Muslim, Jew, Catholic, Protestant, Pagan, Buddhist, Hindu believes, and they certainly don't know what agnosticism is. These groups are complex and have many similiarities and differences.

Especially in the teenage years where youth are still trying to figure out what they believe and who they are, Scouting can certainly help them discover that. However, Adult leaders who discuss with religion (Or he lack of religion they might have) need to avoid proselytizing or being condescending. Some of the best discussions I had as a youth was with other Scouts about their beliefs, and what they believed and why. I remember in my patrol having a Methodist, a Seventh Day Adventist, A Baptist, several non practicing Christians, a closet Atheist (He earned his Eagle Scout) and myself the Catholic. It was a wonderful dialogue, especially when my Atheist Friend learned that Catholics believe in evolution. =P

Sailing PJ, I don't know what beliefs you hold, but if you are uncomfortable with the services, then you should talk to somebody within the council. Or do what you did and don't go. Maybe run a troop non-denominational service instead of the camp one? If you are uncomfortable and left out, then I'm sure many of your Scouts are too. I wish you the best of luck in whatever direction you go in.

Yours in Scouting,

Sentinel947

with my unit, We adults try not to have imput into their patrols. We tried in the past to create mixed ages patrols by administrative fiat, and it failed. So we've returned to just allowing them to make their own patrols, and we've seen an increase in their attendance and participation. My unit is about 50 Scouts.

I don't think their is a right or wrong method to creating patrols as long as the boys agree with it and have fun. Mixed age, same age patrols both have their merits and disadvantages and a troop needs to do what works best with their youth, their ages and maturity levels, and the adult leaders ability to watch over things and coach the SPL and Patrol Leaders.

Thank you for the replies. I'm trying not to be frustrated about it. It is what it is. I just didn't know if I should be pushing harder or just wait it out! I do know what council it is, it was listed on the pack website, so I will give them a call in the morning.

 

if anyone can answer one more question - and this one is pretty petty - It asked what grade my son is in. He's on summer break now, so what should I put? The grade he just completed, or what he is going into? It's a silly question, I guess it will be sorted when I call, if I can get through.

I find all this concern about churches leaving BSA to not follow what I am experiencing. My pack is charter in a catholic church. When I was informed this winter that the church will not be able to charter the pack afher this year. (Due to the school building being rent to a charter school and thus us not having access and nothing to do with the vote.) The first group I contacted was the other catholic church in town. They not only agreed to charter us but they were excited about it. Even after the vote when I took the paperwork over to the father to sign he was happy the pack would be there. I informed the new church that over half of the members of the pack our not catholc. In fact the boys very from catholic, baptist and muslim. Again new church said no problem.

Sentinel947

My answer would be a combination of jblakes answer and Brewmeisters answer. I would also follow it up by reminding this young man that the troop loves to have him as a member and really hopes he continues with the program. Trying to conceal our own personal biases is somewhat important to this effort, unless the Scout asks us what our opinion on the matter is.

 

 

 

Ultimately people will quit for both reasons on this issue, and all we can do as adult leaders is try to encourage them to continue with the program.

 

 

 

As an administrative disclaimer, this thread doesn't need to become another Issues and Politics Thread. ok?

 

 

 

Yours in Service,

 

Sentinel947

Yours in Scouting,

Sentinel947

My answer would be a combination of jblakes answer and Brewmeisters answer. I would also follow it up by reminding this young man that the troop loves to have him as a member and really hopes he continues with the program. Trying to conceal our own personal biases is somewhat important to this effort, unless the Scout asks us what our opinion on the matter is.

 

 

 

Ultimately people will quit for both reasons on this issue, and all we can do as adult leaders is try to encourage them to continue with the program.

 

 

 

As an administrative disclaimer, this thread doesn't need to become another Issues and Politics Thread. ok?

 

 

 

Yours in Service,

 

Sentinel947

Sent947.

My answer would be a combination of jblakes answer and Brewmeisters answer. I would also follow it up by reminding this young man that the troop loves to have him as a member and really hopes he continues with the program. Trying to conceal our own personal biases is somewhat important to this effort, unless the Scout asks us what our opinion on the matter is.

Ultimately people will quit for both reasons on this issue, and all we can do as adult leaders is try to encourage them to continue with the program.

As an administrative disclaimer, this thread doesn't need to become another Issues and Politics Thread. ok?

Yours in Service,

Sentinel947

Why does he want to quit. Becuase the gays are allowed in? or because gay adults are not?

This shouldn't be like youth baseball....

 

Participation does not equal trophy.....Do the work get the award and recognition. The boys know who earned it and who didn't, don't cheapen the award for the boys who earned it.

I had the honor to attend NYLT in 2009. I don't feel the need to pay a considerable amount of money out of pocket to relearn what I've already been taught. My first Scoutmaster went to Wood Badge and really enjoyed it. I've seen some get quite a bit out of it, and some get very little. Since I became an Adult I started fixing what I felt like needed to be fixed, and I highly doubt I could come up with 5 meaningful tickets in my unit currently. Perhaps when I get a little older, I'll do Wood Badge, but for now, at 19 years old, I'm not feeling it. Especially after attending NYLT only 4 years ago.

Sentinel947

It's not that I don't care, I just don't think it's my business or my job. Seems like that's what parents are for.

 

How would you suggest going about enforcing this?

Sentinel947

To me, this comment is rather obnoxious; for comparison, supposed the BSA excluded black kids, and just changed it to admit them, but added a memo reminding everyone that stealing is contrary to the virtues of scouting. Hey, no thanks for the implication....

With my unit, if I know about Scouts are engaging in that kind of conduct outside of Scouts, fine, they shouldn't be regaling all the other Scouts with the stories about their sexual activities.

I don't think we need to look at that statement as being some sort of action statement that BSA volunteers need to become the Sex police. I think alot of people in here are taking that statement a little bit too seriously.

Sorry Merlyn, my comment is aimed at the whole thread, I just started replying to you, and then I started to ramble. =P

Sentinel947

Vote went the way I wanted, the forum is fixed, good day all around.

I don't have an answer. I just thought I'd bump this topic so people can see it.

Sentinel947

Want my honest opinion?. So many well meaning, but unneeded rules that muck things up. I won't call you a control freak though. I think you mean well.

Nothing should matter with patrols besides making sure Scouts are with their friends. I’ve never seen them follow any other system you could try to force them into. Maybe Basementdweller has figured it out, but my unit has learned that friend based patrol is the way to go. Sometimes they will make age based groups and sometimes they won’t. Allow the Scouts to choose and live with the results. Hopefully tenting will be done by patrols. Most of their friends should end up in their patrols. I wouldn’t sweat it too hard if they don’t, but if most of their friends are in their patrol, it’s logical to assume they will camp as a patrol.

My advice:

My unit uses New Scout patrols which are helped along by Guides. The Guides are experienced Scouts who enjoy working with younger boys and like to teach. This arrangement works well for us. The new Scouts pick their patrols. Normally this ends up being a den from one pack mashed with another, but if they have friends, that’s what counts here.

For all other Scouts, we let them choose what patrol they want to be with, and who they want to be in it. If the patrols get too large, we ask them to split into two. We’ve found from past experiments that went wrong that this is the only way to run things. It increases patrol spirit and cooperation. They form far more effective teams.

Some Scouts will mentor and train younger ones. Some won't. If you force the ones that don't into patrols with the younger boys, you will get absent older boys and the younger ones left in the lurch.

My unit lets no Scouts tent alone. And what is the difference between a 14 year old in 8^th grade and a 15 year old in 9^th?

As for the unpopular kid, just don't let the Scouts move on until somebody volunteers to tent buddy with him. Three person tents are PERFECT for this. As then a pair of Scouts can do the right thing without losing tenting with a friend. (Again the friend thing comes up).

The best answer to almost every question in relation to Scouting is "Boy's what do you think?"

I look forward to this discussion,

Sentinel947

Welcome! Nice to see new voices joining the discussion.

Yours in Scouting,

Sentinel947

When the BSA moved away from outdoor adventure in the early '70s, that began the shift.

 

Unit level scouting--pack, troop, crew, ship--is an afterthought.

 

Numbers--Eagles, dollars, JTE, popcorn sales, FOS, MBs earned during day-long universities--are more important to National.

 

True scouting takes place in the outdoors. Not the board room, or auditorium.

 

BP's vision is long gone. In the same manner, Green Bar Bill's status at National (persona non grata) is telling as well about National's priorities.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I will continue my involvement with the Boy Scouts of America either way this shakes out.

Welcome to Scouter! Feel free to post in any topic, or start your own!

Yours in Scouting,

Sentinel947

Lets keep it civil in here please. A Scout is courteous. So are Scout leaders, and that means everybody in this thread needs to ratchet back the angst.

MB: good luck with your chosen action plan here. Hopefully the ceremony will be worth it for your lads and when they go to the Ordeal they will grasp it's rich symbolism and it will motivate them to better themselves inside and outside of Scouting.

Yours in Scouting,

Sentinel947

Back from meeting. Much to the adults surprise, the boy comes in with printed notes and directions for the boys for his game. (Silver Dollar Hunt from Troop Program Resources). He has one compass and has to ask around for quarters. We let those with phones break them out for the game only so they could use the compass apps. He had his partner and a buddy set up the "silver dollars" (quarters) outside while he explained the game to the patrol. Only one quarter was lost. We (adults) let them play their game, then gave pointers on walking a straight line after taking a bearing then we (adults) explained estimating the height of a tree since we knew none had experience with that before. The boys were able to learn multiple lessons (adults too) and all had a good time. SM was to talk with the PL to let him know its always a good idea for him to have an Ace up his sleeve. We were able to walk away feeling pretty good about the mini chaos that was our second boy-led meeting. I know the chaos is more in our adults heads than anywhere else. It was a good meeting.

 

Thank you to everyone who chimed in. If anyone has additional comments they are still appreciated.

 

Yours in Scouting,

Sentinel947

Update for all concerned: PL blasted a text out to his patrol yesterday reminding those running the show that they need to be prepared. SM had an incidental meeting with the boy I'm concerned about yesterday and brought up tonight's meeting.

We'll see how it goes. Not certain if we'll come to a fork in the road tonight, but if we do, we'll take it