Sentinel947

leting in gays would not work with camp outs and such if this passes given 2-4 years bsa will be history thats the talk

I just received my first mentor pin. It was a surprise and a great honor, but I'm not entirely sure about wearing it or not. I try not to wear anything that that hurts the functionality of the uniform itself. Heavy pins on the collar don't help with functionality. Many of the adult leaders in my troop wear their mentor or parent pins, and there's a level of expectation to it.

I understand that it's not proper uniforming to wear the pin on the Uniform. I'm trying to balance the uniforming regs with the fact that the mentor pin is a great honor and I feel like it's not a typical uniform violation.

I figured this thread could use a good healthy necrobumping.

Yours in Service,

Sentinel947

My point is that merely mouthing platitudes like 'all life is sacred', or similar words to that effect, is without relevance at the time when one must choose - and we make moral choices very often, perhaps not with such serious consequences. I was attempting to clarify by using an extreme example. However, in the scenario, at that time, if any choice is made at all there is some kind of value inequality that has been applied and even THAT may change depending on circumstances. Eagledad, I think, recognizes that.

 

Eagledad had earlier applied, sarcastically, an example using the hot button of abortion - in his response to a post by Thomas Jefferson (and I have to tell you, it feels weird to be responding to a name like that). There was no substance in that example, however, merely a position. So I asked my question. I merely wanted to know what Eagledad would choose to do. He didn't see a moral dilemma - his words. I guess he'd save the nurse too. If he thinks adding the serial killer into a fertility clinic is more interesting, I think we've opened it to all sorts of fantasies.

 

Years ago I posed another dilemma regarding ectopic pregnancy. That's very real so there is no false dilemma there. There was one forum member who stuck by the moral absolutist position and admitted that he would allow both woman and fetus to die. I commend his honesty, if not his choice, and am thankful that his view has not prevailed in our courts. But in this case as in that case, I merely was curious about the answer to the dilemma I posed, this time to Eagledad. And just like back then, I again offer no criticism of Eagledad's inability to 'see' a dilemma. It would have been nice for him to explain how there isn't one but I have accepted his answer as is.

 

Sentinel947, I might add that I agree with your choice. I'd save the nurse. In the case of the woman or child choice, I'd make the decision based on what I saw at the time, probably gauging the greatest likelihood of success, or least risk, depending on how you measure these things or perhaps based on something as simple as which one I detected first. They're two persons to me. If I can't save both I'll "Do My Best" and save one of them. Sometimes the glass is half full and sometimes the container is two times larger than needed.

I do believe a fetus is a living, unborn child. Before I get flamed too badly from some corner of this forum, I do not believe in the death penalty or abortion. I'd say my position on America's culture of death is consistent.

In my own scenario, there is a variety of factors as to who I'd save, but if I could only save one and each was equally accessible and their survival chances where the same, I'd take the Child. Maybe because the women has more of a chance to survive on her own, or maybe because I reach a mental roadblock about leaving a child alone in a fire to die. I'd take the kid.

Certainly, DigitalScout. Because we as Americans look to a sport that produced Michael Vick, Adam "Pacman" Jones, Terry Anderson, Chris Henry, and Ben Roethlisberger, Greg Williams, and Sean Payton for models of moral action.

 

Or do you mean that because football players are seen as more "masculine" than non-steroidal. lower-paid Americans, that it will make homosexuality more mainstream? Numerous football players have been arrested for statutory rape, does that mean NFL players will make sex with minors more acceptable?

 

You do realize this is all based on the word of just one attention-seeking ex-player, right?

Certainly, DigitalScout. Because we as Americans look to a sport that produced Michael Vick, Adam "Pacman" Jones, Terry Anderson, Chris Henry, and Ben Roethlisberger, Greg Williams, and Sean Payton for models of moral action.

 

Or do you mean that because football players are seen as more "masculine" than non-steroidal. lower-paid Americans, that it will make homosexuality more mainstream? Numerous football players have been arrested for statutory rape, does that mean NFL players will make sex with minors more acceptable?

 

You do realize this is all based on the word of just one attention-seeking ex-player, right?

Plenty of NFL stars like Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Donald Driver, and plenty more have wonderful life stories and are good people and role models. The game didn't make them good people. Their parenting and other role models like their childhood coaches did.

To say other wise would make an argument read as such: "The Boy Scouts of America produced pedophile Scoutmasters, therefore all Scoutmasters are bad role models."

Doesn't that argument sound a little bit idiotic, AZ?

Let's us judge people based on their individual merits.

Yours in Scouting,

Sentinel947

Eagledad' date=' You are a fireman at a fertility clinic which is on fire. You enter the front door and to your right is a hallway with a nurse screaming in terror. To your left you see down that hall, a Dewar with two frozen embryos in it. You only have time to choose one or the other. Do you choose to save the nurse or the frozen embryos?[/quote']

 

Certainly you save the woman. I think that's a rather false dilemma you've got there pack. Are you trying to make Eagledad admit that the embryos aren't people? And welcome to the never ending debate Thomas Jefferson!

 

Better question for Packsaddle or whomever. What if it is one woman or a small child and you can only save one of them? What then?

Basement, I see you took my advice to find a similar thread and bump it up and turn it into your own since we can't make new posts.

 

We have a brand new SM as of last week. He is just out of cubbies so enthusiasm is really HIGH, and he's been an ASM in the troop for a while, so he does have some experience. He's looking for things to change and improve.

 

Unfortunately our troop functions as a unit, everythig is run more like troop method than patrol method. Patrols exist only as a way to take attendance, line up for flags, and they make a menu for a troop campout, but they'll end up as an ad hoc patrol on the outing.

 

My sons (13 ad 17 year olds) haven't figured out how to create such a big change-- my 17 year old especially spent a year as SPL beating his head against the wall with old SM who was very troop method oriented. New SM gives them hope for patrol methods.

 

Basement your challenge ribbons do sound like something he might like and the scouts might buy into. Of course, they might not.

He will be sorely missed. My prayers go out to his family and friends.

I thought I'd bring this old chestnut back to life since the Tea Party has succeeded in confirming my prediction that their plan was NOT to have a plan and was rather merely to let the sequester take hold. The whole thing was supposed to be so awful that it would provide incentive to compromise and govern. Wrong again.

 

Does anyone know how much Congressional pay will be cut as a result?

 

I have plenty of old friends in the federal system who are going to be hurt badly as a result. As much as I enjoyed the work, the people I worked with, and the command structure of the Army, I count myself lucky to have had the opportunity to leave that workplace and enter the dreamworld of academia. I understand that at least one forum member is in the federal system and others are dependent through contracts. How is all of this going to affect you?

Sentinel wrote: "I don't see the difference between this and the kid who gets forced by his parents to join the band or a sports team that they don't want to be a member of."

 

I completely agree. As parents, I think we have to give out kids options. But it should be their decision to engage (or disengage).

 

I've been involved in youth sports and band for a number of years, both as a coach and a sideline parent. I've only had one kid in baseball that was there and didn't want to be. He got in trouble in the dugout and left before the season was over.

 

Sentinel947

"Merlyn, you're not paying attention."

 

Yes, I am. You're clearly bigoted against atheists.

 

"]Someone who is truly atheist cannot, by definition, respect the beliefs of others"

 

Someone who is truly Jewish cannot, by definition, respect the beliefs of others.

Someone who is truly Catholic cannot, by definition, respect the beliefs of others.

Someone who is truly Muslim cannot, by definition, respect the beliefs of others.

 

Bigot.

 

You are a PERFECT example of how the BSA encourages bigotry against atheists. And people criticized ME for removing school-sponsored BSA units...

Please keep in mind that non members who view this server can read your posts. Some of the racist and bigoted remarks being thrown around to make a point, while rhetorically are very good, don't leave a good impression on the casual observer.

If you want to argue yourselves in circles, please continue, but be aware that there could any number of people who can view this forum who can read your posts and won't pick up the rhetorical nature of your words.

Respectfully yours,

Sentinel947 (Super Moderator(Whatever that means)

I doubt there is an "honest and fair" way to deal with the hostage situation. The kids is stuck under the thumb of the parent(s). About the most he could hope for would be to maneuver in such a way to try to pit the parents against one another' date=' or get an outsider to exert pressure. Not sure that's a positive thing to learn.[/quote']

I don't see the difference between this and the kid who gets forced by his parents to join the band or a sports team that they don't want to be a member of. Ultimately it's not an ideal situation. I'd do my best to help him through the program. I'd like to get him to enjoy Scouting, but if he doesn't, I wouldn't mind talking to his parents for him.

 

Sentinel947

 

Currently when I first hit the Domain of Scouter.com it says that "only registered members can view this site."

I feel like this is a HORRIBLE idea. There are an unknowable number of lurkers who are gaining knowledge from this site that we should not turn away.

Also, getting the PM system working would be wonderful.

Sentinel947

Maybe this deserves a different thread ... but I'll ask it here anyway.

 

What do you for the older Scouts who are being held hostage by their parents? It would seem to me that a Scout in that position would be hard pressed to be interested, cooperative or anything close to functional as a Scout.

 

The Scouts that I'm talking about are those who can't do (or get) X, Y or Z until they Eagle. There are a couple of those in my son's Troop, no driver's license until they Eagle. I'll bet that kid is one happy camper (no pun intended).

 

My Scout was one of those, Grandparents, Dad, Uncles, Cousins, Mom all determined to drag him across the Eagle line, kicking and screaming if necessary. Mom has finally caught on...realized that Scouting is our boy's gig...not ours. He's all but done with Scouting now...done a couple of campouts and maybe 5 meetings this school year. High School (Marching Band, Honors Courses) have taken priority over reading Merit Badge books and filling out paperwork.

Yours in Scouting,

Sentinel947

Our scoutmaster dislikes our current SPL and has decided to not attend meetings, PLC or even respond to messages from the SPL. The last face-to-face interaction between the 2 of them (a month ago) was the scoutmaster telling the SPL he would not last long in that position.

 

I'd actually like suggestions to handle the situation (couldn't figure out how to start a thread, sorry). Truth to be told, the scouts don't seem to miss the scoutmaster, but it is annoying the assistant scoutmasters who are having to act as go-betweens.

Sentinel947

Run the Real Patrol Method. Don't give the Senior Patrol Leader too many tasks and too much work. He's supposed to be a facilitator, a moderator, and a coordinator. The average 11-17 year old boy doesn't have the skills to be the CEO of a 15+ Troop of other Boys. Don't make the position so big, with so many resposibilities, that the SPL's will almost always look "Weak" .

That being said, mentorship is key. The Scoutmaster is key in this. Perhaps if your troop has some Eagle allumni floating around the edges, get them involved in mentoring your SPL. Mostly however, the relationship is between the Scoutmaster and SPL. Check up on the SPL. Find out what his plans are. Help him expand and clarify his meeting plans/trip plans. Give him gentle nudges during the PLC, but NEVER contradict him in front of the Troop. Nothing undermines his authority more or his standing in front of the other Scouts more than the adult stepping in and correcting him in front of everyone. (Obviously safety issues are an exception here.) The SPL should feel comfortable going to the Scoutmaster when he needs help or has a question, if he doesn't, thats a HUGE problem.

Yours in Scouting,

Sentinel947

 

 

 

"I don't know if those two outcomes are compatable with one another.

"

 

I agree with that statement. However, I disagree that a scout that brought MJ and paraphanelia to a campout and smoked it made a mistake. It was a consious decision, not a mistake. I wouldn't consider it a mistake any more than a scout who repeatedly shop lifted, or bullyed, etc. (I could consider that another scout that tried it under peer pressure (whether overt or not) may be considered a mistake, but certainly not one that brings MJ on a campout.)

 

Adult leaders DO need to keep foremost in mine the impact on the other scouts. Bringing MJ on a campout is a safety issue. It risks other scouts trying it for the first time. That should trump any soft heart for giving an Eagle award to a scout, anyway. Eagle should be off the table for the forseeable future. So should participation in scouting events.

 

As adults, we need to be careful not to make a scout getting Eagle our goal. Our goal is character, citizenship, and fitness. A scout that is smoking MJ has demonstrated that Eagle is not important enough to him to stay away from partaking. Why should Eagle be more important to an adult leader than it is to the scout?

 

Until such time as SM and committee is convinced that a (hypothetical) scout no longer partakes, and that he can be trusted that his actions are not just being better hidden, the scout should not be participating in scouting activities, let alone be signed off for scout spirit on any advancement.

 

I see that some on this forum consider smoking MJ on par with exceeding the speed limit, and that is their right. Just recognize that you are likely to have families in your troop that would compare bringing MJ on a campout not to exceeding the speedlimit, but rather to driving recklessly at excessive speeds. Parents may be OK with trusting their son to a troop leader that exceeds the speed limit by a few mph; they would rightly refuse to send their son with a leader that drives 20 mph over the speed limit and tailgates slower drivers. They sure as heck aren't likely to trust their son to a scout leader that does not address smoking MJ as a serious matter, let alone one that brings him up in front of the troop, gives him scoutings highest award, and presents him as a role model.

Sentinel947

Welcome to Scouter.com You've come to the right place. I look forward to seeing your contributions.

Sentinel947

"Lost in all of this is the message being sent to the OTHER Scouts in that troop. If it is known this guy smoked pot (and perhaps did it more than once), got caught and nothing other than a stern talking to and a few meetings with some counselor was the result, exactly what message are we sending to THOSE boys?"

Certainly valid. Certianly a valid thought. Very similar to an older thread I remember about a Scout pulling out a knife during an arguement. Obviously the BSA has rules. This is an older Scout, and he should know better. He is supposed to be a role model in his troop, and he broke not just the Troop or the BSA's rules, but the law. However, ultimately I'm an idealist. I'd love for this young man to have the consequences of his actions so he learns a lesson, (assuming he actually was smoking something) and still make his Eagle. But I don't know if those two outcomes are compatable with one another.

I've avoided weighing in for a few days. But I feel like I should speak up. This young man is at the gates of earning his Eagle. Did he break the law? Yes. But I personally feel some mercy is in order. We all make mistakes. I think he needs some support and counseling, and I don't feel like his one boneheaded mistake should erase the positive contributions.

I asked, and suggested that it might be a great communciations merit badge oppurtunity...... No takers, I am considering having the patrol leaders announce and hand out the awards to each of their patrols.

I would ask the Scouts and see if any of them want to volunteer to run it. They might want to, they might not. COH's don't have to be some elaborate affair. It's about recognition. Passing out the awards, a firm handshake, some congratulations. Encouragement to continue. Doesn't need to be a long, formal affair.

So I guess my first move would be to see if any of the Scouts feel's like running it. If not, then we'd be back at square one.

Hey all -- OP here reporting back.

 

Thanks for all the feedback. Since elections, we've had two more boys join and are expecting at least 2 more next month, taking our total to 12. Several of the boys have expressed wanting to split into two patrols, for competitive reasons as much as anything, and I'm encouraging that. With two patrols, I feel that we'll get better troop games and maintain patrol identity (since right now I'm just splitting the troop in half to play games).

 

I'm trying to provide more structure tools (agenda templates, "cheat sheets") for the boys, both in PLCs as well as Troop Meetings, and that seems to be helping. My biggest problem right now is the chaos of meetings. I know that everyone says that "if a boy-led Troop Meeting isn't chaotic, you're not doing it right", but there are a few areas where I draw the line, specifically Flag Ceremonies and Closing Vespers. Boys acting up during these times when respect is due rubs me the wrong way, and the other adults are obviously not happy about it as well. I feel like they're trying to "test" the discipline policy to see if I really will call their parents to come get them. I haven't yet, but I think I may have to soon just to show I'm serious.

 

Ah well, growing pains are always fun...

 

Mom: Not trying to stereotype, but does this Scout have a diagnosed mental disorder/disability?

Sentinel, my oldest son has Klinefelter's Syndrome. He is a 20 y.o. Eagle Scout and can't do one pullup, and very few pushups. Is he physically fit? Yes, he can run far and fast, plays a lot of ultimate, hikes with the Troop every month and competed in wrestling and baseball for years. He has endurance to spare and a resting HR of about 60. But he has very little strength for his size (6'3") because of his disorder. I can't imagine how he would have reacted had his Scoutmasters demanded a full pullup before advacing. Our Troop allows them to show improvement by going from 0 to 1/2 or 1/2 to full.

 

Pullups are a test of raw strength related to body weight, not fitness.

You can also try an assisted pull up, or a "Chin up" Where someone either helps them with a boost for the "assisted pull up" and for the chin up, someone helps them up to the chin above the bar position, and then the Scout tries to hold himself up there. I'd think either of those would be alternatives.

All the requirement says is do your best. I'd think Baseballfan, your Troop's policy fits that bill.