Sentinel947

"Really. CO's have given their ok to this. You don't look at the news much do you. Southern baptist is up in arms about it, threatening to pull, or advise their members to to pull their CO status. Catholic is fairly limited comment, but it sounds as if it is leaning towards following the baptists, just not as vocal. Mormans--I bet they start their own.(edit--my bad--Mormans already allow gays)

When i became SM two years ago, my paster told me that he is supportive of the Boy Scouts, as long as it does not conflict with catholic values. This greatly conflicts with catholic values in my opinion. We are considered a ministry of the church. The church is not going to support a ministry that is so openly counter to its beliefs. So, my 50 boy scouts, and the 100 or so cub scouts may lose a CO. I bet it is just a start. "

Dennis: As a Catholic I don't follow your opinion. The Church believes Homosexual activity is wrong. Yet it preaches that we should love everyone. Rather than turn the Homosexual person away, Catholics are to embrace them, and help them lead a more Catholic life. Obviously this means a homosexual who wants to be Catholic must refrain from Homosexual Activities.

Regardless a Catholic Church can still deny Gay leaders and boys in their programs if they want to. More likely than not the gay members are already there eh?

"Well, if they make this decision, not only will our church not be starting two units, our district will lose at least 15. The problem with local option: what about camp staffing? Who decides what tents/ cabins are shared by whom? Council events? I think Merlyn said you are known by the company you keep. I choose not to keep company with acting homosexuals or those who are not married and just living together (equally as wrong) My choice"

Where to begin with this one....

I wonder which Church you belong to? I wonder what faith you belong to.

Who decides who tents with who? well everyone decides who their tent mate is.

What about Council events? You'll hardly know who is gay and who isn't, and you'd have your own tents and campsites from your troop won't you?

And Merlyns quote you cited is full of crap. There's no issue with you deciding you are afraid of gays and atheists. (Although it is sad, you afraid your going to catch their gay or disbelief in God?)

You shouldn't get to decide who becomes a member in my troop with your closeminded ideals. It is your choice, but your choice shouldn't make everyone else's choice.

Sentinel947

can't the word Reverent be applied to anything. "Merlyn is reverent to secular morals." Or "An atheist is reverent to Enlightenment principles?" Surely everyone believes in some principle they can apply "Reverent towards.

When we get to the Oath. Can't it be instead of duty to God, it can be duty to my beliefs? Wouldn't that end the issues of having Atheists in Scouts?

bnelon: I was replying to someone else's post. I feel like my use of quotation marks made it very clear I was replying to JBlakes statement.

Jblake: I agree with you. An Eagle Scout should be a dependable outdoorsman. And the scenarios you described make me get a strange mixture of distaste and humor.

As I've said previously, just because a boy is "proficient" in the eyes of National, and gets a rank badge, doesn't mean they are gonna retain this information. Part of the issue lies with them, and part of it lies with them being in a program where they never get to light a fire.

A quick story for ya. *Disclaimer, I am an Eagle Scout.* I was at Summer camp with the boys last summer. A few Scouts approached me about making a fire. "I said sure, but I'm not making it for you. If you want one, the group of you can do it, and when you are done with it, put it out, because I'm not watching it for you."

Well these 12-13 year old lads ran off into the woods, and came back with dry straw grass and green leaves.

I ended up putting on a clinic for fire building for a Life Scout and two first class Scouts. They'd never demonstrated making a fire since they did the "Fire man chit". It was a learning experience for them, and a crash course introduction to being an Adult Leader for me. I hope this summer, when I ask them to make a fire, they'll remember.

I don't know what the solution is, other than National freeing up the Units to define their advancement a little more openly.

It's about time. American Scouting will be all the better if they make this change.

"I don't have an Eagle pin to wear on my shirt, but I'll take on any Eagle scout, skill for skill and I'll at least hold my own, if not blow him out of the water. The Eagle pin is supposed to indicate a certain level of accomplishment. If reality doesn't match, people will soon find out and make appropriate judgments. "

Is an Eagle Scout supposed to be the "Ultimate Outdoorsman" or one who is proficient or above proficient at Outdoor skills?

"What kind of weirdo sociopath Christians are you hanging out with who claim they have never sinned?"

Well AZ: the kind of "Christian" (quotes for sarcasm), that come onto a college campus to call all the women adulteresses, and the men homosexuals. The ones that get in people's faces hoping they'll get hit so they can sue the school, yet their theology is weak.

The Westboro baptist people come to mind as well.

Perhaps I just relate the term "bible thumpers" to hypocritical Christians. That could be an error of mine.

Best thing to ask a bible thumper Moosetracker: Have you ever sinned? Its fun to watch em dodge the question.

> While doing it once and getting it signed off may be what National wants,

Just curious, where in any advancement literature from national does it say that?

Many folks on this forum construe the whole "don't retest" stuff as National encouraging One and Done. To my defense I also said "may" which means I don't know for sure if that's what National wants or not.

Yours in Scouting,

Sentinel947

What stops them from simply continuing their inclusion policy without a statement on the website? Does National send people to make sure the units are following the discrimination policy?

Forgive me if I'm in error here:

I think that it's possible to follow Nationals decrees but still expect and train a high level of ability from the Scouts. While doing it once and getting it signed off may be what National wants, (and for all the Leaders in favor of testing, a Scout can easily relearn for their Scoutmaster conference and BOH and then forget the skill again). A Scout will easily unlearn what he has no need to remember. It's like Biology class. I don't remember all the algebraic formulas from Biology class because I haven't used it since my Junior Year of High School.

I think if we guide the PLC into designing a program that allows them to use the skills, and as leaders stress the importance and utility of these skills, our Scouts will retain them far better than they will because they might get "retested". If we run a Troop with a program that allows them to get away with having no proficiency at a skill, and doesn't force them to confront their lack of knowledge or weakness in a skill set, then they will never improve that skill set. If a troop has tents that have those silly plastic sliders for the tent stakes, a Scout will not practice a taut line hitch, and will soon unlearn it. Teenagers don't practice things that they feel has no value to them. We need to make these skills have value.

Rather than railing against National, I'd let the Boys meet the one and done b.s that National allows, and then push them for higher standards. Sure some of the High Speed, Mommy-is-making-me-get-Eagle-before-I-get-my-drivers-license kids will take advantage of the National One and Done lowest denominator garbage, but that is National's problem.

Yours in Scouting,

Sentinel947

Why do boys choose band, robotics or Sports over Boy Scouting.... might be their interests?

and hopefully one day soon you'll can a member again. Without violating your principles. I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing, and leave it at that. The names people throw at me for it, I don't really give a hoot.

I'm an Eagle Scout, and Scouting has made me who I am today, I will not run away from the organization because of one idiotic policy when I find the rest of the organization to be fine.

and you Merlyn are hanging around with us on this forum, you too must be a anti gay bigot. Hey man, it's the company you are keeping.....

Darn Double Post(This message has been edited by Sentinel947)

Nice quote Merlyn. However, none of us is making the decision to keep these people out. If I have gay and atheist friends, (My roommates are agnostics) then does that make me an agnostic? Oh wait, I'm a Catholic.

"the last bastion of anti- gay bigotry" That's hyperbole.

It's still time the BSA makes the change and allows openly gay and atheist youth. The program wouldn't have to drop the religious elements at all, just can't make em mandatory in the Oath and Law. Plenty of troops at the local summer camp never attend the church services. It wouldn't be a big deal.

You don't owe your co worker any explaination for your involvement with the BSA.

Thank you for serving the Scouts and Scouting Trevorum.

Yours in cheerful service,

Sentinel947

John, nothing truer will be said on this forum all day.

I see. From my side of the fence, as a just aged out Adult Leader, the Blue Cards don't seem that bad. But I don't gotta do much with em.

Kahuna- close but incorrect. Assault Rifle is a military term. Its a class of weapons in between Light Machine Guns and SubMachine guns. It's distinctly different from Battle Rifles or Sniper Rifles, and very similar to Carbines.

Assault WEAPONS is the term you described. It's a term mostly used by the pro gun control crowd.

There is the possibility however unlikely that the girlfriend was a hoax by people trying to take advantage of the guy. Not likely, not unheard of. There's a movie/documentary called "Catfish" I think.. People fall for online love scams all the time. I still think he made her up, but the jury is still out on it.

KC- are you seriously saying that the Blue Card is a time intensive piece of paperwork? I assure you it is not. The Scout fills it out. The Scoutmaster signs it once. The Counselor checks all the requirement boxes after the Scout completes them and then signs it. It's easy and painless.

Gotta throw in Halocaust Deniers and 9/11 Truthers into the mix as well. Despicable people.

What is the question here Tampa?

Do you already have youth with you that want to form a Troop?

As for the time of the year to start a Troop, I'll leave that up to someone who knows better than I do.

Best of luck!