Sentinel947

Monkey: I am Catholic, but the Troop I joined 8 years ago as a youth is chartered to a Lutheran Church. I'm pretty confident they will open their membership homosexuals, although since I'm not the Scoutmaster, CC, or Charter Org Rep, I don't know what is going to happen.

I reconcile other people's homosexuality with my Catholicism quite easily. The Churches beliefs govern me and anybody else who wants to consider themselves Catholic. If they are don't, I can't really tell them how they should live their life. (Assuming they don't break the Secular laws of our great country.) As long as they don't go around telling the Scouts about their homosexual conquests, I don't really care. (Straight Leaders shouldn't be telling Scouts about their bedroom practices either).

"You say youre liberal, Ive claimed a conservative bent, but that should not matter. Its a big church."

It's part of the strength of the Church, while many Protestant groups decline, Catholicism is still growing in the US because of Hispanic and Asian Catholics who have immigrated to the US.

I really think on the adult side that orientation is pretty irrelevant, especially with the YP rules. On the Scout side, it will be a little harder.

I never knew of an open homosexual when I was a Scout. I think most of the problems the pro-ban people raise can be easily avoided, but they are mostly legit concerns.

Yours in Service,

Sentinel947

BDPT: Surely you are allowed to associate with them if you want to. I personally don't mind their organization, they are free to be an all girls Christian organization. However, the Boy Scouts of America is a non-sectarian organization (Note that is different from Secular). I don't like the idea of the BSA partnering with a group that only allows only Christians into it.

It doesn't really help that the only AHG mother I've met in my life (Which I live in West Chester, the founding home of the AHG) told me she wouldn't vote for Romney because he was a Mormon and was an evil follower of the devil. Perhaps that is only one member, but it made a lasting impression on me about what the AHG could be like. I wasn't impressed.

Furthermore, what interest does the BSA have in furthering a all Christian girls organization? Is the BSA opening support agreements with Jewish girls associations or Muslim women's associations?

Yours in Scouting and Service:

Sentinel947

Monkey: I disagree with you that homosexuals and pedophiles are one and the same. I think after the Jerry Sandusky case that Pedophiles are Pedophiles, what they self label themselves is irrelevant to me.

As a Catholic, I deal with the shame of knowing that my beloved Church covered for these Priests. It's certainly shaken my trust in my Clergy. It just shows that ANYBODY can be a threat to Children, even those who are supposed to have a holy union with God and Jesus Christ.

Certainly Youth Protection will need to be looked at, not for Adults per say. No one on one and 2 deep leadership is equally valid regardless of the adult relationships the Adult leader carries out in their bedroom but for the Youth with Youth.

I'll be straight honest with you that I don't have all the answers. I am neither a Psychologist nor a Psychiatrist. I have just my limited experiences and the experiences others have shared with me. I am straight, and therefore I don't know how a homosexual perceives attraction to another man. I know how attraction works and simply, I'm not attracted to every woman. Even if I am attracted to a woman, it doesn't cause me to lose all control of myself. I'd assume gay youth would be the same way. If it's a concern in your troop perhaps your unit could shift to three person tenting? That would eliminate most of the problems in my humble opinion.

I don't think you are evil, gay hating or small minded, and I think your concerns are valid. I disagree with your perception of homosexual people, and I think that is where our differences come from. I think almost everyone on this forum loves the Boy Scouts and wants to do what is best for it. We all have different ideas on what is best.

Yours in Scouting,

Sentinel947(This message has been edited by Sentinel947)

Monkey:

As for the "liberals" on this forum. Why should we leave? It's just as much our organization as it is yours. To us, nothing in the Scout Oath, Law, Promise, or Slogan says that we should keep the gays out. My Duty to my God doesn't tell me I should hate gays. Morally Straight doesn't mention sexual activity:

"DUTY TO SELF: Keeping yourself physically strong means taking care of your body. Eat the right foods and build your strength. Staying mentally awake means learn all you can, be curious, and ask questions. Being morally straight means to live your life with honesty, to be clean in your speech and actions, and to be a person of strong character."

That is from the US Scouting service project website: http://usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bsoath.asp

You have made many insinuations about gay people that I strongly disagree with, labeling them as predatory or saying they have a lack of self control. I don't like that, but I don't have the time to refute you point for point right now. You did bring up some good points though, and I respect your opinion. Local option is the best way to appease everyone, you don't have a say in my units membership, and I don't have a say in yours. Is that not the fairest policy? I believe it is.

Yours in Scouting and service to youth,

Sentinel947

(This message has been edited by Sentinel947)

Blake: As a 19 year old Scouter, I have about 7-8ish years in the program. Some adults are receptive to an experience young adult leader, and some aren't. Seems to be a pretty even mix from my experience.

Basement, the AHG started in my hometown. So if you think you see alot of them, you don't even know. I have an objection to the organization, not the people in it. I object even more the "partnership" between the BSA and AHG because there is no benefit to the BSA.

I don't know. I see Eagles in my area going to College, being School leaders, and joining the Military. Perhaps it's just the kids?

Scoutingagain: I believe you, I don't know if you can find anything on it because the victim was a minor, but I do believe you.

And Scoutwolf, I'm glad you are involved in Scouting with your sons. (I'm assuming your involvement with the Cubs is because of your son(s)). I'm sorry your experience in Scouting as a youth wasn't very enjoyable. Hopefully you'll help your sons's and their friends have a better experience.

Yours in Scouting,

Sentinel947

"Everyone one of us here I presume has raised or is raising at least one teenage boy. We should all know they aren't the most self-disciplined group nor are they the best at exercising good judgement. "

MomtoEli: I'll be honest with you, I haven't raised a teenage boy yet, I'm 19 years old.

Boys do suffer from lack of self discipline and yes, suffer from lack of good judgement sometimes. Scouting is place where they generally learn that sorta stuff, as well as the sports teams, in school and definetly at home.

Perhaps my youthful naivety causes me to have more faith in the Boys than other Adults. I'd like to think that the Scouts can tell the right from wrong in those kind of situations. It's not a very gray zone. What's wrong is pretty cut and dry in this scenario.

Furthermore, the fact that there are gay youth, (and probably homosexual Scoutmasters) already in Scouting practicing good judgement would be an indicator that they can control themselves.

I don't have all the answers, most people here are probably twice my age:

Sentinel947.

"Yah, youth-on-youth molestation is an ongoin' problem, eh? There are many, many cases in da BSA. Most are sealed to protect the kids involved.

I reckon it's a bit silly if yeh consider a 17 year old boy fondling a 14-year-old girl to be (inappropriate) heterosexual behavior but yeh consider a 17-year-old boy fondling a 14-year-old boy to not be (inappropriate) homosexual behavior. This is where we're just playin' word games in order not to face da truth, eh? "

Beavah: I'm going to steal shameless from someone else I read earlier. "Inappropriate Contact is Inappropriate Contact".

I don't think I'm playing word games. Regardless of what classification it's given, it's wrong.

As for your comment about the molestation. I'm aware that stuff happens. The question is, would it be more common because you allow in gay members? Are gays more or less likely to molest another teenager? Or is orientation irrelevant to this discussion?

Yours in extreme puzzlement,

Sentinel947

I guess only time will tell eh?

Sentinel947

MomtoEli: While the board unanimously approved extending the ban a few months ago, several of the Board members expressed a desire to do away with it in the future. This may be that moment in the future. We shall see in a few weeks.

Scoutingagain: Can you link me to that case? I'd think a 17 year old Scout trying to make a pass on a younger Scout(depending on the age) would fall under pedophile instead of homosexual. That is assuming you believe the two are different and distinct.

Yours in Scouting,

Sentinel947(This message has been edited by Sentinel947)

Beavah, a nameless guy on the NYT opinion section hardly accounts for a groundswell. They didn't even allow comments to the opinion attack piece.

Beavah, you are the lawyer, I'm the lowly Political Science Major.. So I'll take your judgement over mine on this sorta stuff. However you wrote: "mens' groups, VFW posts, "parents of" organizations".

Most of these groups don't seem like the kind to have discriminatory policies. Especially the VFW after the end of DADT. I'm sure there ARE, but because of the Secular nature of those groups, I'd assume that many of them wouldn't be electing to discriminate against openly homosexual leaders.(This message has been edited by Sentinel947)

no offense acco, but what people "feel" doesn't always translate into what the law is. At the moment the law says the BSA is a private organization.

I agree that the BSA has a very interesting relationship with public and private entities.

Yours in Service,

Sentinel947

Beaver. What can the gay/atheist lobby sue a Charter Org for? Discrimination? The Dale decision is still the law of the land. A private organization, which all Charter Organizations are, can set their membership policy. A group that were to sue a Charter Org would lose that suit.

"If they're private organizations that can discriminate in those ways (sexual orientation, religion, sex, age), yes. But if a council is rash enough to start chartering public schools without the BSA allowing atheists, that won't fly.

For reference, here are a couple of instances of scout leaders being rejected on the basis of religion (Muslim and LDS); I don't think there were any lawsuits: "

You couldn't be more right Merlyn. Utimately allowing Homosexuals doesn't change the faith-based nature of the program.

The BSA still will not allow Atheists, and so the Schools should not be chartering BSA Units.

On the Atheism in Scouting thing, the situation hasn't changed.

Sentinel947

Over my 7 years as a Scout, I camped probably upward of 200 nights. That's a fair amount of camping. I never was advanced on by another Scout, or heard of it happening to anybody else.

Does the pro ban people have any examples of gay youth making passes at straight youth? I'd be interested to hear of real events if there are any.

Yours in Service,

Sentinel947

The Dale decision is still the law of the land. Right of Free Association. Charter organizations can discriminate on membership with the full backing of the SCOTUS.

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."

quoted for Emphasis.

Yours in Scouting,

Sentinel947

"Every body poo poos video games.

By son operates a clan in Call of Duty Series, he says it has 40 members....they played black ops, Modern Warfare3 and Black ops 2.

He organizes the matches against the other clans, monitors behavior and performance of his guys, recruits new members. to be real honest I was impressed. they have a website and email system similar to what many boy scout troops have.

While not all kids play video games in that manner, It is what scouting once was. Next to zero adult involvement. He did it on his own with dads permission."

Basementdweller: When I was your sons age, I'm 19, so not too long ago, I played in a gaming group like that. It was very much like Scouting, and at times I enjoyed it more. As I got older, I got involved in Scouting more heavily and I quit that sort of competitive gaming.

If your son is the 11-13 age group, he should be careful. There are adults in those groups, and sometimes that could be trouble. Most of them have good intentions and just enjoy playing these games with skilled players, others may have other purposes. Not trying to scare you or anything (I doubt I can anyways. =P)

By and large I felt the need to comment, because I've never seen an adult give online gaming activities such validity before..

Moving on to the OP topic, I think Scouting is very relevant. Part of the beauty of the program is the variance. Each Troop adapts to it's Boys and their needs and abilities. Some troops can be into huge wilderness explorations where they could all beat down Bear Grylls in a skills competition. Some troops are a bit more plop and drop trailer camping. I think both approaches are equally valid.

Yours in Scouting,

Sentinel947

CricketEagle:

This rule doesn't force units to stop discriminating. It just allows units who don't want to discriminate against gays to not have to. I think it's a fair compromise for everyone.

The BSA ended racial segregation. The Organization didn't die.

Scout associations around the World allowed in open homosexuals, they are doing fine.

The US Military allowed Open Homosexuals, we still have the best military in the history of mankind.

Like my other examples, the BSA will continue on in the future. Now religious charter orgs don't have to violate their beliefs while not forcing the rest of us to be governed by their beliefs.

Perhaps kids in your unit get called "Gay" for being a Scout. I did too if I remember correctly. However, kids in schools call each other a whole host of names for just about anything. I hardly see a little bullying as a reason to keep a discriminatory misguided policy, whether or not it is legal.

I know a few Scouts and Scouters who have been harrassed because the BSA is discriminatory. That doesn't really mean anything more than some Scouts getting lip at school because some loudmouth punk thinks Scouting is gay.

I can't wait for a Scouter.com forum where we actually discuss Scouting more than gays or homosexuals in Scouting. Hurray!!!!

Only been a member for a few months, but I have enjoyed this forum. Especially outside of I&P I have expanded my knowledge of Scouting and met some great men and women here.

Thank you Terry!

"Really. CO's have given their ok to this. You don't look at the news much do you. Southern baptist is up in arms about it, threatening to pull, or advise their members to to pull their CO status. Catholic is fairly limited comment, but it sounds as if it is leaning towards following the baptists, just not as vocal. Mormans--I bet they start their own.(edit--my bad--Mormans already allow gays)

When i became SM two years ago, my paster told me that he is supportive of the Boy Scouts, as long as it does not conflict with catholic values. This greatly conflicts with catholic values in my opinion. We are considered a ministry of the church. The church is not going to support a ministry that is so openly counter to its beliefs. So, my 50 boy scouts, and the 100 or so cub scouts may lose a CO. I bet it is just a start. "

Dennis: As a Catholic I don't follow your opinion. The Church believes Homosexual activity is wrong. Yet it preaches that we should love everyone. Rather than turn the Homosexual person away, Catholics are to embrace them, and help them lead a more Catholic life. Obviously this means a homosexual who wants to be Catholic must refrain from Homosexual Activities.

Regardless a Catholic Church can still deny Gay leaders and boys in their programs if they want to. More likely than not the gay members are already there eh?