SeattlePioneer

I'll add that it's nice to read about a pack where the parents are really concerned about having an active pack camping program! Usually it seems like a few leader trying to promote more camping and parents hanging back. That's my experience so far. I'm trying to devise ways to overcome objections. (This will be our 3rd year of doing one overnight camp in June).

The DEVIL in me wants to wear eight beads....

On the bright side, I REALLY like the format of having a flyer as a PDF or other file that can be e-mailed and easily accessed (No Word Documents please). As a district leader, a PDF flyer can be easily e-mailed to unit leaders who can then include them as attachments, perhaps several time when doing e-mails to parents. By contrast, the paper flyer at Roundtable will probably not find it's way to a lot of unit leaders and a lot fewer parents.

> Execellent idea! Sounds like a great way to inspire both Cub Scouts and their parents with an interest in Boy Scouts! We had our Blue and Gold last night or I'd be looking for an Eagle Scout now....

When recruiting Scout leaders, the recommendation of BSA literature is to look for the BEST person for the job. If the BEST person for the job doesn't do much camping, then I'd be looking for an Assistant Cubmaster who does, and can provide the leadership for that part of the program. Most leaders have some weak points ---- I know I do. I try to recognize those and look for other people to help compensate for those weak points.

I agree with UC Eagle ---- follow the suggested BSA format for starting a new unit. Sounds like you are on about Step 5 now, organizing a committee of people who will carry on with recruiting pack leaders and such.

Interesting question, jam. As a CM myself, I'm glad to hear that your troop is providing you with the support your pack needs to continue to maintain a quality program. Second, while your resentment of the family proposing to move to the out of town troop is understandable, they are entitled to do that for a good reason or a poor one. However, you don't need to let that jawboning go on unanswered. Perhaps you can make a point of discussing the advantages and the quality program of the local troop, the experience of the Scoutmaster and the assistance they provide to the pack. You can send out e-mails, invite troop leaders to be presenters at your pack meetings and have the pack invite the Webelos den over to work on advancement or go on a camping trip or camporee. Perhaps the troop can find some Scouts and an AS or even the SM visit and assist with the Pinwood Derby or other activity. Trash talk would like like sour grapes if people have a chance to see the Scoutmaster and troop in action, I would suppose.

I know you are determined to register as CM if you can, but I have to say I think you would be FAR better off as Committee Chair. A pack of 45-60 rather desperately needs a skilled Committee Chair, a lot more than it needs a CM. Until you register a CM, the CC fills in as Cubmaster anyway. That's automatic. As was noted earlier, a competent Committee Chair is a lot rarer bird than a Cubmaster, if both are doing their correct jobs. As Committee Chair, I'd start immedietely to sign people up for Committee jobs and to be looking for someone to be Cubmaster. It's not at all surprising that people wont agree to be CM now ---- the expectations for that job are wildly excessive. Cut the work down to what it should be and you should be able to find a good person without too much trouble. I think that part of the reason you want to be CM is that the current Cubmaster did a large number of tasks he shouldn't have done had the pack run properly. You shouldn't continue to make that same mistake, in my opinion. And lastly, people have repeatedly urged you to attend Roundtable despite the conflict you have with your church group. As A Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner myself, I think you should attend your church group and find another parent to attend Roundtable. Don't be whipsawed into giving up another activity you value ---- you need to keep Scouting responsibilities within reason. Let someone else carry that load.

Oh--- With respect to Roundtable. If you have a good program, encourage people to go. It doesn't have to be you since you have another obligation. You can have one parent detailed to attend Roundtable and then debrief them, or have a different person attend each month. Roundtable is a way to stay connected to what is going on at the district level.

Hello Scoutmom, First I applaude your interest and enthusism for Cub Scouts! I was a 59 year Old Tiger Cub Den Leader for dens in two different packs a couple of years ago, and am now a 61 year old Cubmaster in a struggling pack. I also applaude your obtaining a range of the training available, something I did as well. Indeed I took both the council Cubmaster specific training and our district Cubmaster specific training as well, which went pretty much by the official syllabus. To be candid, with the goals you have stated, you would probably be better as the Pack Committee Chair than as Cubmaster, is my assessment. If you were pack committee chair you would be able to concentrate on finding the resources to set the goals and find the resources and do the planning to carry them out. Planning an effective recruiting campaign is mainly the job of the pack committee and committee chair, or is supposed to be, for example. If you found yourself a good Cubmaster, you could let that person do their job and you could have more time and authority to work your program. You have an ambitious Vision, but is it shared by other leaders in the committee and pack? If not, it may just frighten them as goals that seem to be too ambitious. Politics is involved in Cub Scouts, too! And how has your Tiger Cub Den program gone? Do you have two or three Tiger Cub dens with Den Leaders and Assistant Den Leaders, with numerous boys completing their Tiger Cub badge Achievements this month? If so, I'd say that right in line with the kind of thing that would lead you to be able to achieve your vision statement. My Tiger Cub Den Leader organized a nice service project last weekend for our church sponsor, which included a hot dog roast to cap the activity. It was well attended. Have you helped the pack organize a project like that? Good luck on you Cub Scout career, whichever way it may go!

Hello Lisabob, > As a Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner: ouch! Can board contributors give examples of program marketing that are done well or poorly? I'm promoting our March Cub Scout Roundtables to pack leaders by e-mail titled "Enjoy Cub Scout Rocketry With Your Cub Scout!" It goes on inside to disclose that this is planned as a model of how a recruting night can be conducted, beginning with a fun event that parents and Cub Scouts can do together --- making model rockets. A good deal of Scout training aims to place leaders in the position of Scouts so they can get the emotional experience boys get when participating in the program. I've done previous membership kickoffs where few leaders turned out and were a waste of time and energy. My hope is that this method will inspire pack leaders to turn out with their Cub Scout sons and get some ideas they can use in their spring recruiting programs. I'm planning somethin similar in August, devoting the Roundtable to bringing in the pack leaders with the best sales records and the Scouts with the best sales records to discuss the practices they use which other packs might want to consider adopting. My aim is not to tell people WHAT to do but to show them the things succesful packs do which they can consider adopting in their own program. Leaders tend to be buried in their own units and with a limited idea of what other packs do, in my experience. I'm hoping these efforts would not be considered bad marketing programs.

Hello Eagle 92, Wow, she lasted two months before putting her foot down? She must have been a tough cookie! I'm guessing two weeks might be typical! Let's face it--- a good DE tends to be unreasonably over worked.

Fine Kudu, You might try comparing your behavior on this board for signs of nerosis: There are many different specific forms of neurosis: pyromania, obsessive-compulsive disorder, anxiety neurosis, hysteria (in which anxiety may be discharged through a physical symptom), and a nearly endless variety of phobias. According to Dr. George Boeree, effects of neurosis can involve: ...anxiety, sadness or depression, anger, irritability, mental confusion, low sense of self-worth, etc., behavioral symptoms such as phobic avoidance, vigilance, impulsive and compulsive acts, lethargy, etc., cognitive problems such as unpleasant or disturbing thoughts, repetition of thoughts and obsession, habitual fantasizing, negativity and cynicism, etc. Interpersonally, neurosis involves dependency, aggressiveness, perfectionism, schizoid isolation, socio-culturally inappropriate behaviors, etc.[6] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurosis

I'm sure Kudu imagines that his recruiting methods are the be all and end all, but they aren't. I'll be training our district Cub Scout pack leaders on how to do effective recruiting by putting them in the position of being recruited themselves. Kudu talks about and promises activities at his recruiting event, but I find it's better to DO fun activities at recruiting events. At our March Roundtable, Pack leaders are invited to bring their Cub Scouts and join them in making stomp bottle rockets. While the Cub Scouts are launching their rockets, I will be showing the adults further methods in how to get new families signed up, participating in the pack and working as pack volunteers. And my experience shows that benign neglect isn't a sufficient way to deal with Hispanic families if you want them to join and participate in your program. (Not needed OGE) (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

> Ummm. Last Thursday we had our Council Coordinated meeting (Council Roundtable). Probably 15 minutes was taken pitching Wood Badge to people who mostly had already taken it or certainly heard about it. This included introducing course directors selected for next year. I thought that rather odd at the time. There were probably 200 Scouters there at least. That was 50 man hours of time that was mainly wasted. I'm starting to develop some sympathy for the anti Wood Badge faction that I hadn't felt before: Over hyping and overselling the program is a waste of time and energy.

> I'd say because it's not McDonalds where the aim is to have "billions and billions" sold. If you using marketing analysis to identify populations vulerable to a marketing pitch, but who aren't going to benefit markedly from the program, you are not being helpful, friendly, courteous and kind. If you are discouraging people from learning about the program themselves so they can decide if it's suitable for them, and promoting a "mystique" instead, you aren't being very honest with people. In other Wood Badge threads that are going on I think there's a good deal of agreement that people who took the old course really aren't going to benefit much from taking the new course. But that population has been identified as one that can be sold the new course, and people are encouraged to market the program to those people. That takes people away from doing useful things rather than attending Wood Badge again. It also takes up space that might go to other people when courses fill up. Frankly, I'm a good deal less interested in encouraging Wood Badge participation now that I see the cynical way it is being marketed.

Hello Baden P, I have no objection to being critical of the Scouting program. But there is no calling for crude, sarcastic, hateful language and name calling while you do it. That just provokes other people to excesses. Kudu, has polished his hateful and sarcastic style and repeats it often, with relish. And yes, I can be provoked by such language. When I was provoked to excess by one of your posts recently, you will recall that I rewrote it to remove the objectionable language and apologized for it as well. Frankly, if I were moderating these forums I would delete such posts and warn the persons responsible not to repeat them. If they were repeated regularly, I would ban the person from posting.

Thank you, 83 Eagle. I like it! As Cubmaster I've been polite and promote outings primarily to parents rather than Cub Scouts. My theory has been that parents should decide and that whipping up the passions of Cub Scouts is an unfair tactic. At our Monday Blue and Gold Dinner, I've encouraged Cub Scouts (everyone, really) to make and bring a mess kit they can also use at our June campout. Our main competition at the pack meeting will feature a den competition to see which den can set up a self supporting tent the fastest and get all their den members inside with the zippers zipped up ---again with an eye towards promoting camping. But perhaps that's a mistake. I have some parents very engaged with the program, and others who remain rather detached. I have twin Tiger Cubs who joined in the fall. The parents missed notifying me in time to get their Bobcat award to them at our December Pack meeting, and I just received an e-mail from the parents saying they wont be at our Monday Blue and Gold dinner and pack meeting. I'd be interested in other methods, ideas and opinions.

Sounds like fun! Be sure to report back on some of the creative cooking utencils that were used!

I wonder if Kudu uses the sneering disparaging, sarcastic language of his posts when dealing with Scouts and parents? If he doesn't why does he favor us with that kind of hateful language here, over and over and over and over again? It is unpleasent to read and merely alienates those who might have some sympathy for at least some of his issues.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

Hello TwoCub Dad, Thanks for your explanation of how summercamp merit badges get signed off, and correcting me about the age limit. Hello Beavah, What I'm suggesting is the the summercamp and Merit Badge University merit badges are more or less a part of the woodwork these days. If that's true, I'm asking how can a troop program adapt to that fact of life? > If #3 is commonly omitted, then perhaps that's where the troop program can help remedy such problems (That's actually exactly what my earlier post suggested!). And what we do best is hands on not lectures or classroom study. In Cub Scouts we Do Our Best. Not infrequently I have to notice that's not necessarily a high standard! If the standards for merit badges have become regrettably low for whatever reason, what can a Scoutmaster do about that? You can howl at the moon (we see some of that from time to time on this board). But I think real leadership is looking at the reality you have in front of you and figuring out what you can do about it to make it work --- better if not perfectly.

Seattle has been fortunate to have Alaska Airlines sponsor an Aviation Merit badge program the past couple of years. This one comes right from the CEO and has a terrific program where Scouts talk to professionals from pilot to mechanics. I would say it would be hard to beat this as a merit badge experience: http://www.alaskaair-aviationday.org/

Eagle 92 recounts that it was difficult to get into Wood Badge at one time. Perhaps part of the problem these days is that it is too easy, and efforts are made to oversell the program. I was just at our Council Coordinated meeting Thursday ("Council Roundtable"). We were pitched on the council recognition dinner, Sea Scouts and ten minutes on Wood Badge. Wood Badge prmos are quite common, and beading ceremonies amount to Wood Badge promos as well. Our Council holds Wood Badge programs twice/year. I don't know how hard they must sell the program to get the number they need, but perhaps too hard. Perhaps part of the problem is pitching Wood Badge too hard. I took the course in 1985 and I was happy with it, but if the new course is just repetition for those who've had a lot of management stuff perhaps we should forewarn people of that rather than encouraging them. Wood Badge is expensive in time and money for students. It take a lot more time for skilled staff. Is flogging the Wood Badge program for maximum participants and sections a good use for those resources? I know a major reason I've never taken WB21C is that it would require me to give up doing things valuable to Scouting if I took it, yet there are apparently an efforts to flog the new Wood Badge course to those who took the old course. Why? Perhaps fewer classes would be better for Scouting. Not eliminating it, just not marketing it as aggresively and doing a better job of targeting who would really benefit.

Hello Eagle 92, Your Indian Lore Merit Badge programs sounds like it was a noble effort! It sounds like it was a culturally rich program and well planned. And it had the benefit of a well informed adult who was really interested in his topic. It sounds to me like the Scouts who took your class had a fine experience. By contrast, Two Cub Dad puts his finger on the real weak point, really inadequate merit badge Scout/counselors at summer camp who really don't have much background for teaching a merit badge. For openers ---- Merit Badge Counselors are supposed to be 21 years of age! So how do 16 years olds wind up running such programs? And there are some merit badges that get taught well because the staff is qualified, the Scouts tend to be motivated and adequate time is scheduled for instruction. Aquatics and shooting sports would probably be consistant examples. By contrast I think merit badges like basket weaving and finger printing has a reputation primarily for being easy to complete. Where you have a skilled Xpert, like the blacksmith doing the metal working merit badge, I bet the Scouts have a good experience. How important is it to have higher standards? That might involve eliminating many of the merit badges for which really competent instructors aren't available. Would that be worth while? I would be delighted to have an experience police detective or (better yet!) FBI agent teaching finger printing. Could you make that happen for a month of summer camps? Probably not. You might make it happen for a Merit Badge University. You might find someone to do that for a troop program, even. The problem seems to be trying to do too much with limited resources. Summer camp staff can do some things well, but feel compelled to offer more merit badge programs than they can do well. Merit Badge Universities can attract skilled people and hobbiests, but I see efforts to get ANYBODY available to be able to offer more merit badges. I think a quality class/program could be offered on a troop level, but perhaps some troops try to do too many and wind up sacrificing quality. Another remedy for this kind of issue is for troops to step forward and offer outings and activities that will deepen the merit badge experience for Scouts. Suppose a troop encouraged Scouts to take fingerprinting at summer camp knowing that the experience would be problematic, but supplemented that with a later tour to a detective bureau where modern methods and real experts would be part of the program. Wouldn't that make good use of the marginal "introduction" to finger printing offered at summer camp?

Hello Lisabob, Well, you are leading the charge to a higher standard, but even if you find some volunteers to follow you will it matter? Your competition began with the merit badge standards set at summer camps, then that standard proliferated to Merit Badge Universities and Merit Badge classes in Scout Troops. I suspect that at least in urban areas a determined Scout could find Merit Badge counselors who would offer a challenging program, but how many will seek out that experience? A determined Scoutmaster might refuse to sign blue cards for merit badges at summer camp and M.B.U. and refuse to hold merit badge classes in his troop ---- but how long would it be before parents appeared with hot tar and feathers? Maybe Scouts too? Frankly, this isn't my issue. My issue is having a quality experience on the "Trail to First Class" program. To me that's the heart and core of the Boy Scout program. And that's still practical to do. So I'm not offended by merit badge programs that provide an introduction to the topic rather than a degree of mastery of the topic. The practical way for troops to deepen the merit badge experience is to use the merit badge introduction as a springboard for the troop program into USING the merit badge skills to achieve more experience and understanding. For example: Have first aid problems at night in the rain with the multiple injuries one might find in a car collision. Take a hike to visit the headquarters of competing political campaigns and hear their platforms for election. Sit in on the bargaining session between a company and labor union and then hear from both sides on what their issues are and why they should win on those issues. Good Scout troops already do that by offering "50 Milers" and such rather than just doing the minimums. I suspect if a Senior Patrol Leader or Scoutmaster called around to Merit Badge counselors he could often find ideas and help in deepening the experience of Scouts in various parts of the merit badge program.