SeattlePioneer

That's my theory of Eagle Mills --- they are designed by adults to be the most efficient way to carry a boy into the Eagle's nest. Could be other explanations too, but I think that's a primary motivation.

Hello Eagle, Personally, I wouldn't be too picky about minor violations of "the rules" of the kind you describe. If someone does a mile swim on a reasonably continuous basis, they have an achievement worth being recognized, in my opinion anyway. On my last such swim, the rower leading me around the course wasn't very skillful and brained me with an oar, cutting my scalp. Not too many people can claim to be wounded in action while doing a mile swim, I'm guessing. Perhaps there should be a Mile Swim patch with the order of the Red Cross for that kind of episode! What other mile swim stories can people tell?

The last time I attended Scout Camp was in 2007 at Camp Grizzly in Northern Idaho. http://personal.palouse.net/ChiefKamiakin/CampGrizzly.htm I did the mile swim there at age 57, and then continued doing mile swims 3-4 times/week for 1 1/2 years until I had an injury that got me out of the habit. I'll be at Camp Pigott in northern Washington State next week as a Camp Commissioner. I'll have to consider doing the mile swim program there. I remember nearly thirty years ago when I was Scoutmaster and announced my plans to do the mile swim program. Several Scouts who'd never thyought of doing it signed up and all but one completed it. Generally speaking, I'd say it's easier to do than most people would think. Just nice, slow and steady. I tend to get cramps after a while when I'm not properly conditioned though.(This message has been edited by seattlepioneer)

So.... How many Scouts in your troop complete the mile swim program at summer camp or on their own or in a troop program? This is one requirement that doesn't seem susceptible to being watered down...

A staple food for the first several days of backpacking trips was ham 'n cheese sandwiches. I must have made a dozen, heating the cheese under a broiler flame until it melted and glued the sandwich together.

I did a video game night for a Scout troop circa 2006 or so. A lot of new boys came. None ever came back. Seattle Pioneer

Scout units are not supposed to solicit donations to the unit, but can accept them if they are offered. If she wants to make a donation to your unit, you are entitled to accept it. That doesn't get her into the dinner though. Who is sponsoring that?

Actually, if a SM has principled objections to OA and doesn't want it as part of his program, that's a good reason. Perhaps he's read some of the threads on this board where OA leaders explain how they circumvent the right of parents to observe OA ceremonies. But not holding an election because only one boy is interested doesn't sound like a very good reason.

Hello Oaqk Tree, Since 100% of the lifeguard staffing except for these events are done by males and females, the BFOQ argument holds no water. You would have to be arguing that essentially no one of a particular sex is capable of doing a job for a BFOQ to be established. One area where this is routinely accepted is allowing men to play male roles and females to play female roles in plays, movies and other entertainment, despite the possibility of actors assuming a different gender. I guess I hijacked my own argument aboput Hispanics being a far more important issues than homosexuals to Scouting!

I suspect the chances are about zero that the City of Seattle is going to let some other outfit supply lifeguards for their pool when the pool is rented out. They aren't going to want that liability. This is a red herring designed to try to escape the issue raised. The lifeguards at the pool during these women only swims are city employees and the city excludes men from these job assignments. Frankly, this is exactly the kind of invidious discrimination that is most offensive. It makes city government a partner with Muslim claims that women most be protected from having portions of their bodies seen by men. Since we have laws and rules that prohibit sex discrimination by the city, the city should 1) not discriminate against men in making work assignments based on sex and 2) should not partner with the sponsoring organization by posting notices promoting this event on city property, being listed as a sponsor on brochures, or distributing brochures on city property. I have no objection to private groups renting out the pool and inviting whom they please.

> My council has a big ticket Eagle banquet in the spring. And yes, parents have to pay for their dinner if they want dinner --- although not a big ticket amount. And yes, I expect a lot of parents drive their kid to the banquet and don't do the dinner themselves. What's the alternative? Should more of the sponsor's money go to buy dinner for the parent(s)? Are we honoring the boy for achieving Eagle or the parent? ( I grant you that too often the parent may be the most motivated person.) This is an opportunity for a boy to have dinner with a local mover and shaker, and to be recognized by that mover and shaker for his achievement. I think that's a worthwhile thing. If mom and dad have to buy their own dinner or go without, I don't feel too badly about that. It's just a cross parents have to bear in a good cause in this case I think.

Yes, if people rent the pool they can invite whom they wish. As vol scouter notes, the rub is when the city engages in acts of employment discrimination against its lifeguards and other staff in order to accommodate the wishes of a private party. That is a violation of employment law at a minimum. When the city becomes a party to being a partner of this program by hanging posters on city property to promote the event or distributing brochures promoting the event and being named as a sponsor in the promotional materials, that seems like a prime facie case of a violation of the city's non discrimination laws and park department rules. And as I noted, there are a number of other do gooder sponsors, most of which no doubt have anti discrimination rules of their own which they are violating. They clearly feel free to ignore their own rules when they choose to do so. They apply their non discrimination rules in a discriminatory way.

I don't see any difference myself. Do any of those posting these length requirements have Scouting references to support their claims?

Well Merlin, When you rent a pool for an hour you rent the pool under the Federal and State laws, city ordinances and park department rules, all of which prohibit sex discrimination. It's amusing to see people try to excuse violations of anti discrimination rules when they stand in the way of things they want to do. All of a sudden the principle isn't very important. Of course, this was equally true for issues like affirmative action for racial minorities. The idea of color blindness in hiring was rejected by the liberal left as soon as they got it enacted into law. All of a sudden they wanted racial quotas as a standard for measuring "non discrimination."

Hello vol Scouter, My council gave Soccer and Scouting a good try, hiring a District Executive whose mission was limited to promoting the Soccer and Scouting program. He left the council last December, and the Soccer and Scouting program doesn't seem to be getting the attention it was getting. I don't really know for sure, but my impression is that it is an experiment that is winding down. My own interest and goal is to find the methods that will allow traditional Scouting programs (English speaking Scout units primarily) to attract and retain Hispanic youth and families in significant numbers. Frankly, I don't know how to do that. My aim is to find out. I had the Hispanic DE who headed the Soccer and Scouting program scheduled to do a Cub Scout Roundtable scheduled to do a Cub Scout Roundtable seminar on Recruiting and Retaining Hispanic Youth in February, but he left the employment of the council before that. I have been promoting this goal (also a national and council goal) among Council staff and the Council Membership Vice President, but I haven't attracted much real interest so far. My district executive has been promoted and interviews are being held for a new DE. I've been promoting the idea of hiring a Hispanic DE who could help develope methods of recruiting Hispanic youth. Also, the Hispanic DE who left the council is now back in the employ of the council, so I'll be asking him to do the Roundtable seminar again. He'd make an excellent DE for my district too. In short, I don't have good answers, but I think I have good questions that deserve answers.

> I'm not a fan of Eagle mills, but I think your comment goes too far. They are just another variety of Scouting that some boys and parents may choose in my opinion. I think they are primarily the product of adults who figure out the most efficient methods of carrying their son into the Eagle's nest. It's a product of being goal oriented and efficient.

For the special swim, the city owned and operated pool was staffed by city employees, but only female staff were assigned to the swim. That was the intentional act of the pool management. It's a clear violation of city ordinances, state and Federal law, but they do it anyway --- because no discrimination ordinances often create uncomfortable situations that prevent people from doing what they want to do. People think that if their hearts are pure they can ignore those issues.

Nice try, KC9, but of course you can't legally discriminate on job assignments either. It's just more sex discrimination --- you are opposed to that, right? Just as an example of the consequences of non discrimination, I used to work for a utility company. Women wanted to become eligible to be trained to do repair work on furnaces and things in people's homes, but weren't so hot on the idea of working nights and going into the homes of strangers alone at night to do inspections and repairs. But that was one of the consequences of accepting the job. Similarly, women liked the extra pay of being classified as collectors, but liked being collectors in the office dealing with people about their bills. Few women wanted to go out to the homes of people and tell men twice their size they had to pay $259.68 right now or they were going to have the gas shut off on their wife and their child and their dog and their cat --- and then do it.

Hello Kelcema Chief,

Hello Oak Tree, There are a certain number of people who will choose not to join Scouting for political reasons, just as you suggest. Seattle is a hot bed of such activism --- but it's still a minor factor around here. If I'm looking for membership growth, I'm not going to look at that faction, because they are mostly NEVER going to be happy with Scouting anyway. They wont be happy until every vestige of religion is wiped from the Scouting program. They wont be happy until a quota of openly gay Scoutmasters are recruited to lead troops. The California legislature just adopted a law requiring that homosexuals be featured in school textbooks. They will NEVER be happy, and pandering to them is a waste of time. If BSA wants to change it's policies because they think it's the right thing to do --- fine. But chasing after this demographic is pointless, in my view. It's a small element of the white liberal political/social class for the most part. Noisy but SMALL. By contrast, the Asian and especially the Hispanic demographic is HUGE around here, and growing rapidly. A good many schools in my district are 60% Hispanic and 10% white --- but we are mostly recruiting from the 10% --- that is a losing proposition. The most powerful and successful districts in my mostly urban council are those with mostly high income, highly educated, primarily white populations --- the same districts where the white liberal population is maximized as a percentage of the population. Yet these districts are doing the best of all. Sorry, I just don't see evidence that this issue amounts to much when looking at the demographic evidence. Much noise is made about it as this thread indicates, but it's not much of a membership issue that I can see.

The main focus of my program was on the monthly outing, with Troop a troop meeting to recover from the last camping trip and a couple of meeting to get ready for the next one. There were more to the meetings than just outings, but they were a main core purpose of the meetings.

Hello Trevorum, The gist of the pro homosexual line of argument in this thread has been that BSAs policies towards homosexuals are a great and growing obstacle to Scout membership. I doubt that's the case. There are some people who are going to be motivated to avoid Scouting because of their liberal orientation --- but they will probably always find reasons to avoid Scouting. By contrast, Scouting has huge opportunities to serve demographic elements such as Asians and Hispanics. Traditional Scouting units in my area don't know how to do that well at all, so we are missing out on a terrific opportunity! As a District Membership Chair, I've been making loud and repeated noises to get attention to this issue. Most recently, our District Executive has been promoted to run two other districts, and I've been promoting the idea of hiring a Hispanic DE or someone who has Xpert knowledge on the Hispanic demographic and can help figure out how traditional Scouting units can appeal to this population. Figuring out how to recruit Hispanics, Asians and similar groups into traditional Scout units is where the future of Scouting is in my opinion. Homosexuals are simply a noisy and insignificant sideshow for Scouting.

Again I note that the homosexual issue is a tempest in a teapot as far as demographics go. Scouting would profit handsomely if it ignored the homosexual issue in favor of doing a better job of recruiting and retaining Hispanic youth and families. The chattering classes like to chatter about their political wards, the homosexuals, but that's not where Scouts come from. It's a political issue that masquerades as a membership issue.

> So Eagledad, What are those policy ideas that have stood the test of time?

Personally, I'm a LOT more interested in finding ways to recruit and retain Hispanic youth --- which are a large and rapidly increasing part of the demographics Scouting needs to be concerned with. By comparison, homosexuals are a trivial part of that demographic. It's really a political sideshow. The market for Scouting is NOT among homosexuals.