scoutingagain

One way we stopped the adult PLC take over was to let everyone know the PLC was the SPLs meeting. While adults were invited to attend and if they had ideas to present to the PLC they are to ask the SPL for time on the agenda, and permission to speak when the SPL brought up items of new business. The CC or SM is on hand to back up the SPL, if needed. Once this process was set up, the PLC has not had much in the way of interference from adults. Adults do particpate in our PLC meetings, but at the pleasure of the SPL. Sometimes the CC or SM has to explain the rules of order of the meeting to new parents, who either try and take over the meeting or continually address their comments to the SM or CC and not the SPL and PLs. We have had very well meaning adults with ideas that are very good and usually if the idea is presented well, and as a request or suggestion, the PLC will act positively on it. Sometimes the adults get frustrated if the PLC decides to go with a different idea or decides they have a full agenda and table the idea until next month or next year. SA

All great ideas, although I like ASM162's thoughts on bringing better awareness to backpack cooking. In addition the different types of stoves, I'd like to see information on how to purchase and prepare good backpacking meals from ingredients bought from a regular grocery store, as an alternative to high priced, pre-packed backpacking meals from outdoor stores. Sounds like a really good roundtable meeting! SA

A very difficult thread to read. Thoughts and prayers go out to the scout and his family. SA

Like Venidi, I'm not necessarily arguing for one position or the other, just providing some thoughts on both. If appointments were made, like the Baden Powell aproach, we might like to think that adult leadership would be in a position to appoint qualified leadership. However, seeing how many youth baseball coaches play their own sons more frequently and in positions where other boys on a team may have greater skills to play, I have no reason to believe adults would be any better at selecting youth leadership than the youth themselves. There are pros and cons to both systems and both teach youth different aspects of Character and Citizenship. SA

While the official BSA model of scouting has youth leadership positions elected by the boys, I don't think there would be anything wrong with the idea of having these positions appointed by adult leadership, or at least having successors appointed by outgoing youth leadership with concurrence by an SM. While this may not be democratic, and sound like heresy to some, for many of us our day to day lives are more often influenced more so by those who have been appointed by someone else rather than elected. How many of us get to vote for our boss? Being able to deal with appointed leadership is an essential skill in the workplace, in the public and private sectors. SA

"Is it OK for the SM to take care more of the indoor part of the program (leadership training, mentoring, conferences, etc.) and leave the outdoor part to the other adults? " Yes. And thank you for your continued service to scouting in whatever capacity you feel you can best serve. SA

Hmmm...these must be new authorities granted to scoutmasters under the Patriot Act. I didn't know SMs had the authority to direct who can send e-mail to each other. While I can understand the desire to have a consistent message given to a group, the creation of unwritten unannounced rules usually doesn't work very well. Out of curiosity how does the SM enforce this new policy? Does the Black Helicopter unit of the BSA come in and confiscate your computer? If so, I'd like to find out how an individual SM can get in touch with this branch of national. I may have some assignments for them myself. About the only e-mail "rule" we have encouraged, is that when any adult leader e-mails a youth member, i.e. SM or CC to SPL, or ASM to PL or any other electronic communication between adults in the troop with youth members, that they copy another adult leader on the communication. We don't want any misconceptions with respect to adults communicating with youth. Frankly, this is mostly for protection of the adults involved with the unit. SA

I can sympathize. At a recent meeting with Webelos parents, where we described the troop, types of outings we go on, etc., one of the ASMs went into graphic detail on some of the less than successful meals prepared by new scouts on their first campouts. I was afraid none of the parents would allow their sons to join. Fortunately most seemed to have a sense of humor and it looks like we'll get most of them. But I would not recommend tales of new scout cooking failures, (er, learning experiences), as a recruiting tool. SA

"Something similar occurs when we play video games regularly or for long periods. A chemical called dopamine begins flooding the brain after only about twenty minutes of video game play. This chemical is about the same as injecting an amphetamine into a person, creating a pleasurable "high" that makes the process addictive." You know the same thing happens to me when I go into the outdoors with a group of lads and see how they put teamwork, outdoor skills to use to overcome challenges and reach the next "level" of scouting. I think I may be addicted. SA

Just read an initial report this scout was found, alive, dehydrated but otherwise OK. Hope & pray the reports are true. But things sound good for now. We have had to ask at least one scout to leave the troop because he would just not obey adult or youth leadership and had a bad habit of wandering off on his own. His single parent mom wanted him in scouts, but he wanted no part of it. He just became too much of a risk to take on outings and demanded too much adult attention. SA

Our "policy", if you want to call it that is essentially the same as jblake47's. It not written anywhere. We have not specific attendance requirements. But our experience is that those boys (and we have a couple) that only show up for the more popular outings and maybe summer camp don't advance. We do closely track the activity requirements for the lower ranks, and camping MB. Those that are not that active, don't typically advance beyond 1st class. That's the only consequence, and the scouts know and understand it. It has been my experience over the last 5 years, that virtually all our Eagle candidates have remained active in the troop. Most have served as SPL. Several have worked on summer camp staff. Now we also don't run MB classes at troop meetings except once in a while. Maybe one or two a year. A scout would need to take the initiative to attend summer camp for several years as well as attend the district's MB University for several years, as well as obtain one or two MBs outside of those venues to approach Eagle and actively serve in a position of responsiblity for the upper ranks. How does a scout get into the position of working on an Eagle project without having at least the level of activity described above? SA

We considered something like OGE's approach of refering scouts to local businesses for jobs to earn money for a high adventure trip. The idea involved sending a letter to local businessed indicating the unit had 6 - 8 boys, of legal employement age, looking for an opportunity to earn money to pay for a high adventure trip. The terms of employment would be between the scout and the business. It never panned out, because there wasn't enough interest in the trip, but the idea is still out there as a possiblity. We weren't looking to place 30 - 50 scouts, only 6 - 8 teens. Now as a youth, (back in ancient times, pre-litigate every stubbed toe times,) the troop I was in held a "slave" sale at our CO. Scouts were put up for sale for work and odd jobs around a house for private homeowners for a fee. Most of us ended up mowing lawns or painting as I recall. (It was ancient times.) Now I wouldn't be against this concept but would want to know the legal, liability issues first. Hmm, having scouts earn money by working for it. Now that's a novel concept. SA

"I think the idea of a Personal Locator Beacon is fine, but in a program where the cost of a uniform seems to draw the ire of quite a few people, what would a $450 PLB do? " True, but where a typical high adventure trip to a BSA High adventure base might cost more than $1000 per person, (Our council contingent's cost pp to Philmont this summer is in excess of $1800.) $450 for a PLB for a small unit planning their own high adventure trek outside the organized confines of a BSA base seems like a wise investment. While on my own I might subscribe to local1400's philosophy, however, as an adult leader who might consider taking a group of other peoples' offspring into the wilderness...well I don't think I'd leave home without one. SA

Check out http://www.outbackkayak.net/ They have equipment and trips on the Pemigiwasset River which will be right in your neck of the woods. A good day hike might be to take the tram to the top of Cannon Mountain and hike down. A moderate loop hike with great views is the Welch-Dicky Trail off the Waterville Valley access road. See http://hikethewhites.com/ for suggested hikes and trip reports. SA

My son took NYLT two years ago as part of participation as a Lead Scout or CIT at summer camp. Our council provides it to all CITs as part of the CIT program. This is one of those programs where you get to pay the council for the privilidge of having them train you to work for them the following summer. So far it's been one of the best investments I've ever made for my son. He returned from the experience totally fired up about scouting. Ran and served as SPL the following year, signed on as paid camp staff the following summer and will work as staff again this summer. If the NYLT program is run well, it is well worth the investment for a parent, scout or unit to participate. SA

We have had ECOHs that have ranged from sit down dinners at a nice restuarant or country club that looked like a wedding reception or Bar Mitzvah reception to nothing more than the Eagle scout getting his badge and reading few letters at the end of one of our regularly scheduled Troop COHs. AS noted before, the candidate has earned his Eagle rank at the date of his EBOR. The ECOH is simply formal recognition of the award and is totally up to the scout. If he wants the certificate and badge sent to him in the mail, it is his choice. Having said that, I like at least some form of recognition that other scouts can participate in. While many boys may not like being the center of attention, I seen many a young scout inspired to pursue advancement to Eagle after participating in and seeing all the granduer of a well run ECOH ceremony. SA

I wondered about the decision to leave the woman myself. I'm sure this was a difficult decision by the two men and not one that came easily or without significant thought. But I would have to defer to two experienced outdoorsmen who were on the ground and had first hand knowledge of the woman's condition. When all was said and done, it appears they came to the conclusion that the best chance for the woman's rescue was to stay together and ensure they got out together to notify others who could transport her safely. The two men safely got out to notify others who could properly effect rescue. Seems like it was a good decision to me. SA

I've mentioned this before (and have been chastised for it) but at our BORs occaisionally a question will be asked that asks the scout to essentially re-explain or demonstrate a rank advancement requirement. This primarily occurrs in BOR for Tenderfoot through First Class. Now, we have NEVER not allowed a scout to advance if they do not answer one of these questions correctly. As far as the Board is concerned and the way we run advancement, is if the requirement was demonstrated to a guide, instructor or adult leader and signed off, the requirement was met. But, the boys know they may be asked these types of questions, and most take the time to review the knowledge and skills areas of their rank. This helps them eventually master these skills and knowledge as they progress in scouting. Now this is one area I will tend to sound like Bob White. In this instance I think the BSA has it right. The BOR is one of the areas the boys get involved with the "Adult Association" method. There are plenty of other opporuntities for them to interact with older scouts in terms of instruction of skills, led by during meetings, outings, etc. and advancement testing. The BOR is one of the mechanisms set up for scouts to interact with adults and Beav's and Lisa's points are spot on as far as I'm concerned. The best BORs are conducted by knowledgable adults familiar with the program that are at ease conversing with youth. The best ones are where the scout leaves with some piece of wisdom offered one of the adults and a light bulb goes on in the scout. When this happens it's a special moment. The board should also get some insight into the scout and his needs and involvement in the program. Occaisionally the board is provided some wisdom from one of the scouts and an the light pops on in one of the adults. As a youth and with my sons I've been involved with many youth organizations, sports activities etc. None that I have been involved with have anything like a BOR experience. SA

GWD, If it's any consolation, I still spend a fair amount of time guiding the Guides in the unit I serve. SA

"I like the idea of having an older scout review with the candidate before the SM conference." I like this approach too. Maybe we could call the older scout a "Guide" and assign him to a group of younger scouts to help sheppard their advancement through 1st class? SA

OGE, I agree. I also resent the idea that just because I am a white male, I must be some kind racist, sexist, scum who actively works to suppress others who are not like me. But that is not the same as recognizing that some segments of society do indeed play on a field that is tipped against them relative to my position. That does not mean though I believe that the field is tipped so far that it is totally non-competitive either or that affirmative action programs using quotas or preferential treatment are the best way to level it. SA

"In college I had to compete against minorities, females, and female minorities who didnt have to score the same on the entrance tests because of "affirmative action". So, OGE with all sincere respect, as based on your posts I believe you to be a very fair minded person, as a manager based on the experience you've described, how do you believe you view a minority job applicant with a college degree versus a non-minority applicant? If a minority applicant had heard you say the above, do you think they might get the idea they didn't have the same opportunity at a position a white person might have? SA

"It took forty minutes for the guys just to decide whether to cook Friday night, bring a bag supper, or eat at home before we leave. So much bickering back and forth about who likes what, or more precisely who doesn't like what. Arguments over pancakes or eggs for breakfast - so and so doesn't like eggs, so and so thinks cleaning up after pancakes is too hard. OK, let's forget about breakfast and move on to lunch. That was fairly easy and the guys all agreed on tacos. But, after agreeing on tacos they started arguing over hard shells or soft. Finally, one of our older Scouts mentioned that soft shells travel better than hard shells. That seemed to solve the argument. Then dinner. Dorito casserole is a favorite, with three guys saying to put it on the menu. Two others chimed in saying they wouldn't eat anything that was called a casserole. With only fifteen minutes left in the meeting, it all finally came down to two of the older more experienced Scouts basically telling the younger guys "this is what we're going to eat and that's it." " Ya know, I've observed division VPs do about as well on just about any topic you can think of only to have an Exec VP or CEO step in and do the same thing the older scouts did. Sounds like the scouts are doing exactly what they should be doing. Learning from real life challenges on their own, even if it's something as simple as what kind of tacos to have. SA

Chris Rock (high paid black comedian, entertainer) has the best line relative to this discussion. "Not a single white guy would trade places with me,... and I'm rich!" SA

"I remember standing up and telling the committee that they were leaving no room for my Boy Run troop to be boy run, and burning out the adults at the same time. We no longer participated in any District sponsored activities in November. " Amen. Our District runs a Tiger Cub day in Sept. and expects Boy Scouts to help out. They run a Webelos Weekend and expect Boy Scouts to help out. Now they want Boy Scouts to help run the Webelos Klondike Derby in January. My question was when do the Boy Scouts get to go on their own outing? SA