scoutingagain

"West was an attorney..." Probably a corporate attorney. I said this before, but the BSA does not run as a representative democracy, but more like a corporate entity where the CEO appoints his own board of directors, who then decide on the CEO's salary and perks. SA

Actually as I recall the easier problems were the ones that had an actual number to calculate, even if the result ended up being some number X 10E-23. The hard problems were the ones that either had answers like 0, 1 or infinity. I can recall one problem on a Physical Chemistry final that required calculating the finite probability of all the air spontaneosly rushing out of the lecture hall. It's been close to 30 years so I forget the specifics. SA

As I recall both the SM and CC need to sign the application. Any idea on where the CC stands? SA

"You are not going to change things over night and you might want to pick your battles. " Amen, Brothers and Sisters. No wiser words have been spoken for anyone going into an existing unit to try and change things. SA

Campcrafter, My sympathies. But from your description if you are hoping to provide anything close to a Boy Scouting experience for your new scouts something needs to change and you know it. Only you can decide what is best for your situation. Some 6 years ago I stumbled into a troop that had some issues but was not nearly in as bad a shape as the unit you described. I chose to stick it out and do what I could to improve the situation, primarily to assure that my son have the best scouting experience he could. I did not have the option of starting a new unit and the other troop in town was in worse shape than this one. Ultimately, while the unit I serve has a way to go, it is in much better shape than when I first started. I will say though I generally got support from the committee and SM when changes were suggested. I also volunteered to implement many of the changes that initially revolved around the outdoor program and advancement. But I digress. Things to consider include the level of cooperation and support you will get from the existing adult leadership. If they are resistent to change and are not likely to turnover in the near future, I'd look at nearby troops. Starting a new troop is really tough. It can be done, and others can speak to that effort. Good luck. SA

CalicoPenn, It's no wonder your instructor would be vexed. Sure there wouldn't be a measurable difference in the lake, but there would be a theoretical difference as explained by others, and given specific information such as the volume of the lake, mass of the brick, etc. the diffence could actually be calculated, (anyone recall exponents?) I wasn't going to post this, but this thread has wondered sufficiently where I will. Acco's questions reminded me of a delightful little ditty by Tom Paxton. SA I Don't Want a Bunny Wunny Words and Music by Tom Paxton President Carter got into his boat; Wasn't in a hurry, wanted to float. Think about the country, think about sin. Along swum a rabbit, and he tried to climb in. (spoken) "And what did Jimmy say?" [Cho:] "I don't want a bunny wunny in my little row boat, In my little row boat in the pond. For the bunny might be crazy and he'll bite me in the throat, In my little row boat in the pond." Look at him swimming, look at him fly, Ears laid back and a gleam in his eye! Hissing through his front teeth, swimming like a seal! If you were the President, how would you feel? You'd prob'ly say, [Cho:] President Carter saved the day; Splashed with the paddle, rabbit swam away. Jimmy was a hero, felt it in his bones, Said in the words of John Paul Jones, [Cho:]

Like SemperP, we did away with scout accounts several years ago and went to a straight cash commission based on an individual's gross sales of our annual XMAS ..er Holiday Wreath sales. For each dollar in gross sales, 10% goes to the scout. The scouts get a check at our XMAS er Holiday Party, and it is usually spent on gifts or personal camping gear or a downpayment on the following year's summer camp. The remainder of the profits are split between the Troop and our annual donation to the District FOS fund. The troop pays for most camping expenses during the year(i.e. site fees, equipment upgrades etc.) Last year a scout could have attended all but two of our campouts and not pay anything except his share of patrol food. The exeptions were our ski trip and a trip to Nantucket, but even those were subsidized to reduce the out of pocket cost for scouts. SA

"Why do they make manhole covers round? " Bonus round, Why would someone from Nashua, NH not understand this question? SA

knottyfox Nah, I'm cool. SA

Acco, I'm willing to agree we're probably hung up on semantics somewhere. As far as "Again, are you confusing the seven methods of Cub Scouting The Ideals, The Den, Advancemet, Family Involvement, Activities, Home and Neighborhood Centered, The Uniform with the eight methods of Boy Scouts? " No, I searched on the national web site for "methods" and this is one of the pages that popped up. I know it is not the same as that in the New Leaders training and am as confused as anyone. SA AIMS AND METHODS OF THE SCOUTING PROGRAM The Scouting program has three specific objectives, commonly referred to as the "Aims of Scouting." They are character development, citizenship training, and personal fitness. The methods by which the aims are achieved are listed below in random order to emphasize the equal importance of each. Ideals The ideals of Boy Scouting are spelled out in the Scout Oath, the Scout Law, the Scout motto, and the Scout slogan. The Boy Scout measures himself against these ideals and continually tries to improve. The goals are high, and, as he reaches for them, he has some control over what and who he becomes. Patrols The patrol method gives Boy Scouts an experience in group living and participating citizenship. It places responsibilityon young shoulders and teaches boys how to accept it. The patrol method allows Scouts to interact in small groups where they can easily relate to each other. These small groups determine troop activities through their elected representatives. Outdoor Programs Boy Scouting is designed to take place outdoors. It is in the outdoor setting that Scouts share responsibilities and learn to live with one another. It is here that the skills and activities practiced at troop meetings come alive with purpose. Being close to nature helps Boy Scouts gain an appreciation for God's handiwork and humankind's place in it. The outdoors is the laboratory for Boy Scouts to learn ecology and practice conservation of nature's resources. Advancement Boy Scouting provides a series of surmountable obstacles and steps in overcoming them through the advancement method. The Boy Scout plans his advancement and progresses at his own pace as he meets each challenge. The Boy Scout is rewarded for each achievement, which helps him gain self-confidence. The steps in the advancement system help a Boy Scout grow in self-reliance and in the ability to help others. Personal Growth As Boy Scouts plan their activities and progress toward their goals, they experience personal growth. The Good Turn concept is a major part of the personal growth method of Boy Scouting. Boys grow as they participate in community service projects and do Good Turns for others. Probably no device is so successful in developing a basis for personal growth as the daily Good Turn. The religious emblems program also is a large part of the personal growth method. Frequent personal conferences with his Scoutmaster help each Boy Scout to determine his growth toward Scouting's aims. Leadership Development The Boy Scout program encourages boys to learn and practice leadership skills. Every Boy Scout has the opportunity to participate in both shared and total leadership situations. Understanding the concepts of leadership helps a boy accept the leadership role of others and guides him toward the citizenship aim of Scouting. Uniform. The uniform makes the Boy Scout troop visible as a force for good and creates a positive youth image in the community. Boy Scouting is an action program, and wearing the uniform is an action that shows each Boy Scout's commitment to the aims and purposes of Scouting. The uniform gives the Boy Scout identity in a world brotherhood of youth who believe in the same ideals. The uniform is practical attire for Boy Scout activities and provides a way for Boy Scouts to wear the badges that show what they have accomplished.

If it can't be described as trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, curtious, kind...it shouldn't be included in a unit's summer camp program. I find it hard to see how anything that can be described as a "prank", even a so-called harmless one, fits the description above. I do see room for "initiations" that involve a shared challenge and or positive recognition of some kind for new scouts. However, I don't see how a "prank" would fit in. SA

Acco, I agree the methods are all equally important.(BTW, on the National site there are now only 7 listed, see http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=mc&c=mv What's up with that?) However, as you noted, the IDEALS of scouting are one method, and UNIFORMING is another, as are the PATROL METHOD, OUTDOOR PROGRAM, ADVANCMENT, etc. We have discussed in other threads that while all of these are equally important, it is not uncommon that individual units, for whatever reasons, may be strong in some methods and weak in others, even though, they may recognize that all the methods are of equal importance. For example, a small unit, with limited participation in an OUTDOOR PROGRAM may struggle with the PATROL METHOD, but is fully UNIFORMED, does well with ADVACEMENT, LEADERSHIP etc. A young unit may struggle with LEADERSHIP. These units, and it's adult leaders are not necessarily immoral or unethical any more than a unit that struggles with the UNIFORMED method. Understand, I am not arguing against the UNIFORM method. I just don't see a scout in a T-shirt as a great moral failing. It's a weakness in a specific method, that can be worked on and strengthened within an individual scout and/or unit, but I don't see it as the equivalent of lying, cheating, stealing, or other truely moral or ethical lapse. SA

OK, a question for posters for whom I have the highest regard (really) that have compared uniform wear to the Scout Oath and Law. Just what unethical and or immoral choices has a scout made if he chooses to wear a non-scouting related T-shirt at summer camp or what points of the Scout Oath or Law have been violated? Or, heaven forbid he makes the unthinkable choice of wear a scout uniform shirt with blue jeans.(Not that I agree with this, but comparing proper uniform wear to adherence to the scout law raises the bar pretty high, huh?) "Our summer camp "requires" full official uniform for flag ceremonies, evening meal, opening and closing campfire programs, Sunday chapel service. All other times the activity uniform is required. Now, those requirements are followed to the letter by some troops, almost not at all by others. The staff is always in full field or activity uniform right down to the official socks." My son is on staff this year as well and spent $50 - $60 on socks, another pair of shorts and an additional activity T-shirt to round our his uniforms for the summer. One plug for uniform wear though. Our Council Camp recently did an updated video/DVD. Several of the boys from the unit I serve are very prominent in the video. Why? Among other things they were wearing their unit activity shirts most of the time during the week the video was filmed. It's a real plug when we show the Council Camp video to prospective Cubs to show them boys in our unit doing things at Camp. SA

Like the "Gray Areas", much of this is more how it's done and recieved versus what specifically is done. But we need to keep in mind "hazing" is in the eye of the receptor. If the individuals on the recieving end regard the incident as hazing, it is, regardless of the intent of the perpetrator. I personally don't think there is much negative associated with any of the activities described in this thread so far. But, with the loss of membership going from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts as high as it is on a Nationwide basis, Boy Scout troops should be doing everything they can make that transition as positive as possible. SA

"There was mention of making them wear their clothes inside out and having them having to say certain things when responding to a question from an older scout." I'm a little suprised at this. This seems pretty close to what I would consider hazing. SA

I think Eagledad has said it best. It sounds like this ASM can use a little time away from the boys. However we need to keep in mind this adult VOLUNTEERED to take a week of his own time to spend it at a boy scout camp. I've seen some of the most low key laid back adults I know lose it after the 3rd or 4th day at summer camp with a difficult group of scouts. This doesn't excuse the adult's behavior, just explains it a little. I'm curious though, was this behaviour out of character for the adult or does he frequently have issues with scouts questioning his authority? Barry has a good suggestion on asking the adults to recognize the fatigue factor and try and work through it. I would also talk to the JASM. Let him know you support him and you thought he did the right thing. Correct him where he may have made minor errors, but overall it sounds like he handled the situation well and should be commended for it. Let him know you trust his judgement. It might also be a good time to discuss how there will almost always be someone somewhere who is in a position of authority that may not like his approach to resolving an issue. This goes for CEOs and even Presidents. If he has confidence in himself he needs to know he can rely on his own judgement and not second guess his decisions everytime someone disagrees with him. He can examine his decisions and review them, but if he thinks he did the right thing...he probably did. Be that as it may, he will still need to work with that someone. In any organization a leader not only has to deal with the logic of the situation but the personalities as well. I've seen many adults that don't seem to get this, let alone a 17yo JASM.(As you have observed!) But think! Where else can a 17 year old get this kind of experience?! As Barry often says," I love this scouting stuff!" SA

I must admit this has my curiosity up as I havn't seen the article either. I think we also need to keep in mind there is a difference between hazing and initiation. The OA has an initiation ceremony and it shouldn't be confused with hazing and I would see nothing wrong with a Troop or unit initiation ceremony for new campers, as long as it didn't cross the line into hazing. An initiation should single person out for recognition as an honor, not as a source of ridicule or embarrassment. As Beavah noted, new scouts are singled out for all kinds of reasons and I agree the swim test is one of the more intimidating activities for new scouts at camp. Not to mention the drill Sgt. like instructions given by waterfront staff prior to the test! Then a scout is required to take a swim test in front of the entire world to watch. For marginal swimmers it can be intimidating. SA

Ditto to what Acco and Eamonn said. At our Council Camp, CITs also pay for the priviledge of doing much of the same work paid staff do. In addition they are required to have at least two full uniforms, and purchase staff T-shirts and hats. Even with this, the camp usually turns applicants away from this program that has a limited number of openings. It does include the NYLT program for one of the 4 weeks the scout participates in the program. While not specifically required to work a staff position at our Council Camp, open staff positions are usually filled from those who participated as CITs or Lead Scouts, as we call them, from the previous year. I imagine it varies council by council, camp to camp. As Scoutldr noted though, if your son is willing to put in the work and is willing to travel a bit, there is probably a camp that can use him somewhere. One suggestions might be to have him work towards BSA Lifeguard. Qualified waterfront applicants seem to be in more demand. Our Council Camp frequently has more applicants than positions available. It is not unusual for a CIT to be turned down for a paid position. My son who, did get on staff this summer, knows of at least two CITs from his class last year who are returning as CITs again this summer because they were unable to get on paid staff this summer. SA

LauraT, As noted, feedback is a gift. With all due respect, I wouldn't be so hard on the Camp Director. He is probably paid proportionately a relatively small sum of money to take on what is essentially the job of Chief Operating Officer of an operation that may employ dozens and serves hundreds, maybe thousands of customers over the summer. It involves food service, accommodations, recreation activities, physical property, camp equipment repair and maintenance, payroll, taxes, child labor laws, OSHA and Environmental compliance, Human Resource issues, etc. It is his first session week for the season as well and is probably pulling his hair out trying to work out all the things that need to be fixed before the next weeks session. While I'm sure he hears from other campers, their parents and other staff, all to few probably send him a note or stop by to tell him what a great job he's doing, how great camp is, and that they sincerely appreciate his efforts as a Director. I'm sure if he wanted to he could find a much more financially rewarding job over the summer. Just a couple of other thoughts, just short of physical abuse I would encourage that your son stick out the summer. He has made a commitment to the Director and fellow staff to serve for the summer. I can't imagine there is anything much more frustrating and disappointing to a camp director than a staff member who quits on him mid-summer. As others have noted, this is a great experience. Heck compared to a summer camp cabin, a college dorm room will seem like the Trump Palace. He will also be way ahead of his peers in deeling with roomate issues etc. If he really doesn't like the experience he can choose not to apply next year. But don't be suprised if he tells you how horrible everything was, but is first to get his application in for next year. Finally, if he has a Birthday coming up, and I can understand your desire to take him out, one really great way to win friends at camp is to share a Birthday cake from home with your staff buddies. Buy a simple sheet cake from the gocery store and have them put Happy Birthday on it. Bring some paper plates and share the festivities. I pick my son up after his first week on staff this weekend. He went in all psyched. We'll see how he made out. SA

Just some thoughts on the use of power tools. While the the G2SS or other BSA documentation may not specifically prohibit the use of power tools, many states have child labor laws that prohibit the use of power tools and machinery by employees under the age of 18 or other specific age. Hence, council camps or other BSA properties that employ youth may have rules prohibiting the use of such equipment and that is the source of the unofficial rules for scouts who are not employees. Personally I would have no problem with scouts using tools such as light hand drills, power screwdrivers, light sander, or even a light hand held jig saw or dremel tool with adult supervision. I would be uncomfortable with most scouts using tools such as a power circular saw, chop saw, pneumatic nailers or a heavy drill. In my career in construction I've had experienced construction workers sever limbs, fingers, broken limbs, nailed feet and legs and in one case I am aware of a fatality involving the use of a drill. These tools should be used by experienced adults with a high degree of caution. Construction activity, particularly residential type construction,(i.e. wood constuction) has some of the highest accident rates of any industry in the US. As far as Eagle projects go, there is no reason construction projects can't be done using the approach Lisabob describes. Also there are plenty of Eagle projects that can be of a scale that can be built entirely using basic hand tools. It wasn't that long ago entire houses, barns and other structures were built using no power tools at all. For example building a Gazebo in the town square or school courtyard using nothing but a hammer, nails, framing square and a crosscut hand saw is quite feasible. If one really wants to be precise you could use a finish saw, and a manual mitre saw. Our unit recently built a storage shed for our equipment where we didn't have access to power using this approach. SA

My son is also working his first summer as a counselor. He worked as a Lead Scout at the camp last summer for 4 weeks so he knew what he was getting into. It is basically what you described, although I know he specifically did NOT want to work the waterfront, because I think he knew they tended to have longer hours. The Lead Scout thing is where you get to PAY the camp for the opportunity to do all the things paid staff do. But the ranks of paid staff are usually chosen from scouts who have particiapted as a Lead Scout the year before, so it is kind of a prerequisite. Yes, it's tough work. But after being a Lead Scout, my son couldn't wait to get on the paid staff. In fact it's not easy, nor a forgone conclusion if you apply your accepted. At our council camp, there is a high rate of returning staff and only a limited number of openings every year. As tough a job as it is, it is considered an honor and priviledge to serve as Camp staff. It is not at job where they take whoever shows up. So far my son loves the idea of being on staff. We'll see how he feels in a few weeks. As noted by others, for reasons of their own these staff members frequently return for more year after year. They are truly dedicated scouts/scouters and enjoy being around others that share the same enthusiasm. The weekly trek to Camp to pick him up on his one night off will be a bit of a pain frankly. But we have asked our son to see if he can find another staffer from our area to carpool with every other week to ease the effort a bit. Acco is correct about the hours, but I note your son will turn 16 in a couple of weeks, so maybe they can limit his "hours" until then. A camp staff position is tough to work out hours though, because it's basically a 24 hour/day job with limited time for a break here and there. If your son was not working at camp, what else would he be doing with his time?

The description below comes from another camping website, however it accurately describes Camp Richard on Nantucket Island off the coast of Massachusetts. This is a unique scout property (100 acres) on a resort island better known as an escape for the wealthy than a scout camp. You pass the Kennedy compound in Hyannis as the Ferry heads out of Hyannis Harbor. On a windy day, the kite and windsurfers may include the Junior Senator from MA. Our unit recently returned from a weekend trip and had a great time. Biking, ocean swimming, sun, surf and sand. The island also is a great spot for surf casting. While the trip can be a bit on the pricey side,(about $50 per person) for a weekend or a bit longer, we used some of our fundraising $$$ and paid for support vehicle ferry fee with troop funds. The cost to scouts was around $20 for the weekend. (Try and find a hotel room on the Island for less than $300-400/night) Camp Richard is the only camping facility on the island and is only open to scout units. The facilities at the camp a very good, most are recent construction and clean. (A great outdoor shower!) The camp is under utilized (so we were told) and can usually accomodate those that would like to go. They can handle up to 5 units at a time. The ferry is a factor requiring advance planning. To reserve a place for a vehicle during the summer/early fall plan several months in advance. If you go and contact the Steamship Authority, be sure to mention you are a scout group. Group rates are available and are the ones listed in the article below. SA Camp Richard---Nantucket, Mass. http://www.camprichard.org/ Camp Richard is located on Nantucket Island off the coast of Massachusetts. This is a B.S.A camp and is well keep. Only registered Scouts, Explorers, Scouters and parents of Scouts will be permitted use of the camp. The camp has a shower house with hot and cold water, flush toilets and a small building with a number of refrigerators to store food. There is also a new large recreation building for use by all. The camp has numerous game fields and the best obstacle course we have ever seen at a Scout camp. Usually only four troop are allowed to camp there at one time. The main campfire pit allows for a joint campfire by all troops in camp. Every troop staying at the camp will have some type of chore to accomplish every day. These will be worked out by the SPL's and Camp Master. Use the camp as a base for visiting the rest of the island. The island is loaded with bike paths. Bikes will be your primary, if not only means of transportation around the island. We normally stay 3 days and take between forty and fifty Scouts and Scouters. The main cost of the trip will be a box van. The troop takes a 30 foot box truck-this thirty foot bumper to bumper-loaded with all troop gear, food and bikes. The cost for a round trip ferry trip for this truck was $412.00 in 2002 and the same in 2003. The Scouts carry a day pack for personal gear and use when biking and going to the beach. Some of the best beaches on the East Coast are located on Nantucket; our favorite is Surfside about a mile from the camp. Sight seeing is one of the favorite past times on the island. If you have never been to Nantucket you are in for a treat. Nantucket Town is a treasure as are numerous other small villages through out the island. Cost: We usually charge Scouts $50.00 and Scouters $60.00 for this trip. This will cover the cost of renting a box truck, the R/T ferry for the box truck, all the food-we do troop cooking, the R/T ferry cost for both Scouts and Scouters, and the cost of staying at the camp. If someone knows where to get a deal on renting the truck or getting it donated it will save a couple of hundred dollars. There is usually money left over to purchase Camp Richard patches for all. Bikes: Make sure all your bikes are in good repair before leaving for Nantucket. Bikes are also available for rent at Young's Bike Shop right at the ferry landing. When the ferry lands at Nantucket the bikes are unloaded and everyone then rides to Camp Richard. Ferry: For a R/T ticket for a thirty to thirty-five foot box truck, the cost will be $412.00, in 2003. R/T tickets for persons UNDER 15 years old are $10.40 in 2003 R/T tickets for everyone else are $20.80 in 2003. *** You need to make reservations for your truck and people at least six months in advance. If not you may not get a spot on the ferry on the day and time you want and need. The Steamship Authority's phone number is 1-508-548-5011-x244/344. This is the group sales office. Their web site is: http://web1.steamshipauthority.com/ssa/ Camp Richard: The camp is operated by: Camp Richard Campers Association, Inc. PO Box 3002 Nantucket, Mass 02584 Robert Graves is the District Chairman and he is in charge of Camp Richard, his phone number is 508-228-9868. The cost to stay at Camp Richard is $2.50 per person, per day in 2003.

"But ask yourself this: Would you let your 15 year old daughter go into the woods with a bunch of 18 year old boys, even with a couple of adults present?" Good question. So just how many female members of co-ed Venture crews are there? Are the parents of these young women irresponsible? Or are those that would not allow their daughters to join a Venture crew heterophobic? SA

I would agree with EagleinKY and Fscouter and both have provided good advice on the process. However, while I acknowledge an appeal to the District should be a last resort, in addition to the information FScouter provided, the scout should also be told he does have the option to appeal the decision. In most cases, if the BOR is doing it's job and acting in good faith, it should be able to easily identify which of the requirements the scout did not meet, and what he needs to do to complete it(them). The scout goes off, completes the requirements, earns his rank and learns he really does have to do the requirements to earn the rank and life goes on. If on the other hand, a BOR, does abuse it's authority and denies a scout a rank he has rightfully earned, the scout should know there are proper channels he can take to appeal the Board's decision. If the BOR is unwilling or unable to articulate to the scout what he needs to do to complete the rank requirements, an appeal may be a legitimate alternative. The scout(with all due respect, not an SM's wife, SM, scout's parents, or dissenting board member) should submit the appeal. (an adult of course can deliver it.) Just my 2 cents. SA

" I don't by any means think that an older Lad in a well balanced, well ran Troop has any need to join Venturing or even Sea Scouts!! " I would agree with this 100%. I would just not be so quick to be so judgemental of a young man, who at age 16 - 18 chose to hang a around a crew instead of a troop for the reasons I noted earlier. Crews and troops offer different programs for different interests. As an adult leader, if a scout came to me and said, "I've thought about it, and have decided to participate in the Crew as my primary scouting activity." I'd wish him luck and tell him I hope he enjoys the crew. Then I'd look at the scouts in the troop I serve, and work with those as best I could and provide them with the best Boy Scout program I can. It may live up to Barry's ideal or it may not. But it will be the best I can do with the other adult volunteers associated with the unit. I wouldn't lose sleep or expend a lot of energy judging a choice a young man, who has chosen to stay in the scouting community, is free to make within the scouting system. SA