Scoutfish

Umm, when I said I do not smoke anymore... I meant cigarettes. Having just read it again, I could see where that might be misunderstood. I quit smoking cigs, and I do not smoke anything else...except brats and suasage!

Well, all my posts were about non leaders driving the boy. My posts were about announcing during a pack meeting that a mom wouild like some help. I never said the pack, the leadership, or the committee would appoint or designate a driver. I never said a leader would do it either. BUT... If leader and his son were going and volunteered to do it, they would not be violating YP . If any other person outside of leadership volunteered to do it, they whatever they decide to do is outside the boundaries and authourity of the pack, CO , BSA and YP. Now, technically, YP does not say that a Leader cannot be alone with ascout: http://usscouts.org/safety/YP_guidelines.pdf What most of you seem to be thinking of is Two Deep Leadership: Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders, or Two registered adult leaders, or one registered leader and a parent of a participating Scout or other adult, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips and outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when the presence of adult leaders is not required and adult leadership may be limited to training and guidance of the patrol leadership. With the proper training, guidance, and approval by the troop leaders, the patrol can conduct day hikes and service projects. Appropriate adult leadership must be present for all overnight Scouting activities; coed overnight activitieseven those including parent and childrequire male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities. No one-on-one contact. One-on-one contact between adults and youth members is not permitted. In situations that require personal conferences, such as a Scoutmasters conference, the meeting is to be conducted in view of other adults and youths. Separate accommodations. When camping, no youth is permitted to sleep in the tent of an adult other than his or her own parent or guardian. Councils are strongly encouraged to have separate shower and latrine facilities for females. When separate facilities are not available, separate times for male and female use should be scheduled and posted for showers. Likewise, youth and adults must shower at different times. Respect of privacy. Adult leaders must respect the privacy of youth members in situations such as changing clothes and taking showers at camp, and intrude only to the extent that health and safety require. Adults must protect their own privacy in similar situations. Pretty much, 2 Deep applies to the activities trhat happen during scout meetings or events. Not when a leader would be giving a ride. But, I ain't too keen on a leader giving a ride to that scout if they are the only tweo in the vehicle...bvut at the same time, if he is a neighbor to the mom and has know both of them for a long time, and she trusts him...then , that seems to be an exemption . Why? Because this type of thing may happen at other times too ( outside of scouting where scouting has no authority) like going to WalMart, school, baseball practice, a ride to the grocery store or who knows what. But to reitterate, all my previous comments were about anothert non leadership parent VOLUNTEERING to give the boy a ride. Anbd if that happens, I as a CM or any other position of leadership cannot stop that!

"I'll get you a lighter for camp, I don't want you to look stupid again." Now, two wrongs do not make a right, but at the point dad said this...I'd have him walk a couple or 20 yeards away with me and dress him down. No, it iswn't the right thing to do according to trhe books, but It's the right thing to do in my mind. I'd explain to him in no uncertain terms that the only one who looked stupid in any way, shape or form was him. But then I would point out that as many times as he has done stupid stuff, nobody pointed it out. Maybe explain what encouragement and respect is. Talk about courteous and friendly means. Then I'd go over what the whole point of scouting is as he seems to not have any idea what it is. Now, I will not even try to say my tactic is the right thing or even any better than dad's approach, but maybe somebody just needs to say it. Thankfully, in my pack, I would have the support of the rest of the parents, leaders and the CO for a parent like this.

Speaking from experience of having s 10 year old...sometimes kids this age can be sticklers for detail. Not, not because they really stick to detail, but because they are trying their onw shot at wit and sarcasm. Maybe this boy does not believe in God, but believes in Jehovah, Allah, or Shiva. You know how they can be be. They will be runningbehind and making YOU late for..whatever. They say they cannot find theiur shoes. They could be standing about 3 feet from the shoes they are looking for...will look around the entire room, but refuse to look down. It's like they are trying to prove a poiny somehow. But at 10 years old..their views can change weekly, monthly or daily. This week he wants to be an astronaught when he grows up. Next week, he might want to be a veternarian. The week after that, a SWAT sniper.

That's cool! What I am thinking, how I put it into words, how your read it, and the way you interpret it are 4 different things. Of course I know what I meant. Trick is.....did I explain it in a way as to make sure others understand. I ain't taking sides with the Jimmy issue...truth be told, I just don't have a vested interest in it to have any deep knowledge, My only point was just because a government says something wasn't "offical", doesn't mean they are not behind it. Example: Government special operations, anything to do with the CIA, and my work dealing with a non existant group that could maybe possibly be called Delta Force..assuming they even existed...which they do not!

"Actually, you had just better put a protective bubble around you and your family and have no interaction at all with the outside world because any time that you have even the slightest interaction you put yourself at risk of being sued." If that bubble doesn't work...I'm gonna $ue somebody!

"Scoutfish, a few years ago I was one of those persons doing the procurement of those garage doors. But I and all of my counterparts understood the profound difference between a garage door and a nuclear reactor." My point was not about garage doors or anything nuclear. The point was WHERE I installed the doors. The government paid us to put in a physical product in a physical place that officially did not exist. Well no doubt it existed,. If it didn't why did the government pay us to put in a doors (or 7) there? How could we if it didn't exists? And that was "Official Info" from an "Official" standpoint of the "Official " government. I remember Reagan running for and getting into office., I remember Carter with his souther Georgia bell talk about peanuts. Other than that, I have nothing for or against him as I was too young to want to even want to watch or care back then. But my point was about the term "official" When that term comes from the government, it means nothing. Could be Carter was paid a huge chunk of money to "Officially" be a citizen on vacation.... OR that the Government was behind it 100 % but "officially" doesn't want to admit it. But to my original reference : That place I went to they didn't exist according to "Official": policy and "official" statements had about 6 times the security of any other military installation or Nuclear plant where I have either installed or serviced doors. Officially..."Offical" means whatever the government wants you to think it means..or whatever supports their objective. Jimmy Carter, nuke technology, or missile nose cones made from recycled Georgia peanut shells isn't the point of what I was saying. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

I don't see it as a simple line. I see it as a massive chasm. I am good friends with several of teh other leaders. When we are not having a den ,pack, leaders, funraiser type meeying, or if we are not at a council/ district training/ meeting/ event......then it's not scouting! If I am invited to my (now Webelos) leaders house for a party, and I take my son, who plays with his sons..then it is just that...a party, not a scout event. I'll crack open a beer along with the host and whoever else is there- usually 3 or 4 more of the pack leadership as well as peope who I have known for yrears and years who have nothing to do with scouting. YP is not in my mind any more than taking a high school biology test. I hardly drink ( maybe 4 times every ten years) and I do not smoke anymore, but if I wanted to, YP or any other G2SS guideline does not apply or have any juristiction or authority over anybody at the party. Now, If I have a party for my scouts, or if a DL holds a "Den Party " for his den - wether at the co or at his home..then full scouting, G2SS and YP protocals are in effect. Basically, the premis is this: Just because I invite a few co workers of my boss ( yeah, he's that cool) to my house for a pig pickin or other cookout/ party event - does not make it a work event , nor do any normal work protocals take place. No workmans comp if somebody gets hurt, no unemployment or anything!

Without taking sides...I will say this: I have worked on military bases where the people in certain building needing garage doors .."Officaily" did not exist! Areas within a military installation that were under the guard of private security forces who were nbot constrained and bound to what the regular military police were. Of cource, there is no ned for me to say any more, nor could I prove anything I said because - the government said that "officaily" , they DO NOT EXIST!

You know...I am thinking that alot of units might ought to just disband. Close down, shut their doors forever! Why? Bcause the potentail for being named in a lawsuit is just to great a risk. What happens if a scout and his parent get into a wreck on the way to a scheduled unit meeting. WEll, since the unit, the unit leaders, the COR and CO set this thing up...they could be held responcible for any injury or damages! I mean, the scout probably wouldn't have been on the road to get hurt if the unit did not have that meeting scheduled. Suppose a Webelos scout falls down and the two pins from his Webelos colors stick into his arm and some staff gets in there too? Now I could be sued for sickness and all the associated hospital bills. You know what I mean? He wouldn't have even been wearing the colors if our unit hadn'r awarded them to him and expected him to wear then for his Activity Pins..which might also make it National's problem too since they came up with the concept. And what about fundraisers? Now we are dragging the district and council into this mess as well. Might even get the state and federal people involved to as I am pretty sure there are some child labor laws being broken. Do the individual sellors carry proof of tax id numbers on them? If not, , maybe they should also be charging and collecting for state and federal taxes too. What about vendor/ peddler licenses? Workmans comp insurace? If you are driving around, is your vehicle now consideed a work or buisness vehicle? Maybe yoiu should have commercial tages or at the very least, a DOT number on your door. And since the only reason anybody goes to the scout shop and buys any supplies is because the units expect it..shouldn't every single item be written off on taxes for scouts, parents and all leaders alike? Maybe I'll start claiming any and 100% of all expenses associated with any camping event whatsoever as a tax deduction. Good thing too since I love grilling brats..which are not that cheap! Sounds rediculous right? Yeah well......... that was my point!

See, that's the whole thing..I am not brokering, arranging, or creating anything. If the mom asks that she get somebody to help carry her kid, carpool, etc...that is outside of my scope of responcibility or power. What if two scouts are at the local park and get into a fight? What implications does that have with regards to me? NOTHING! What if a scout from my pack throws a rock through the windo at school? NOTHINg to do with me. If tow parents who happen to be in my opack get into a fight..NOTHINg to do withj me. Here's the thing: YP is limited to actual SANCTION scout events that are cooridinated by, run by and are part of the pack or unit program. If I happen to be at home cutting grass , and off the scout time clock - and my neighbor's son ( who happens to be a scout) comes over to talk to me about....I don't know - fishing or the weather or if I want to buy a candy bar to support science class at school...then the scout rules, YP, and everything else do not apply. There is a limitation to when anything to do with YP or any scouting rules apply. Other wise, you had better get all your parents to sign a contract that says their children will NEVER get into a conoe unless at a council or district camp.. They will never ever buy their sdon a bb gun nor alow him to shoot anything but a bb gun - and only while at camp. No pocket knives unless his DL approves him for and he is carrying his whittling chip too. Oh, and mom and dad had better give up all tobbacco and alcohol products. Matter of fact, all leaders bettter give up same! BUt wait...that only applies when you are at a scout function right? Better answer correctly less you get named in a lawsuit. As far as getting named. some lawyers will do all kinds of stupid shady stuff. But just naming me in a lawsuit does not mean it's reasonable or even valid. Again, what two moms arrange between themselves to get a kid to a meeting is outside the scope of any authority scouting has. Also, according to what some of you are implying - mentioning is considered brokering) Then you had better reconsider any announcement you make from now on. That airshow I mentioned on base next month..I better take that back because ...if a jet crashes...I'll get sued! If the Police Dept cathes on fire during a Tiger Go see it...My pack will be sued too. Matter of fact, I am no longer going to promote council camp because...if anybody has a traffic accidennt while on the way to that camp...I might be named in a lawsuit! Again, I cannot control what other people do outside of scouting, nor should anyone ever think I should.

Why would I be named in the lawsuit? Why any more than you? Lawsuit for what? If the carpooling mom were to get in a wreck or something....that's NOTHING to do with me.

"If you are being grilled by plaintiff's lawyer in a lawsuit, you might be pretty unhappy." No, I wouldn't be unhappy, I'd be curious as to why they are talking to me?

I really don't get your angles here. Why in the world would I or the pack have any liability for what a mom does? If that's the case, then it would require all parents to contact us before hand before carpooling, if one scouts happens to be spending the night with another after the meeting, team sports, etc. I nor the pack is responcible, in charge, or an any way liable for anything another parent does out side of the scope of scouting...which incidentally, is when the carpooling would take place. AGIN, I am not assigning anybody to do anything. I am not/ can not tell a parent to give/ not give another person a ride If teh disabled mom is asking for somebody to give her son a ride..and it is not a uniformed, registered leader ( during scout events).....then it is none of the packs buisness what that mom scooses to do. If mom asks her neighbor - who also has a son who is a scout at the pack - to give her son a ride...I cannot prevent, stop, okay, or do anything about it....unless the the one providing the ride is a know registered sex offender ..but the only thing I could do in that case is keep them off the property and out of the scout event.

I do want to mention something I seen happen a few years aho at a birthday party for one of our FORMER DL's sons who only invited boys from his den: The mom, who was a FORMER committee member, would holler "Signs up" to get everybody's attention, say "Scouts are reverent" before saying grace for dinner. Then say "Scouts leave no trace" after dinner - meaning help take down the tables and chairs and put thenm away. Now, while a scout is supposed to be a scout 24/7, I told the mom that this was a birthday party for her son, and not a den meeting. Even though the boys were all scouts, she needed to lay of all the scouting references and terms.THis was a private personal birthday party and not a scout function. I'd no more expect the scoutingf references as I would expect my boss to give me orders if my son stayed at his house. Point being, if you treat a b-day party the way those two did, I could see where somebody could mistakenly think it was indeed a scout event.

The obvious answer is to befriend another boy from another pack..trhen it becomes a district problem! Nah, that is just being overly cautious and kne jerking about nothinmg! If it is not a den or pack meeting, or a pack sanctiioned meeting for fun or buisness..then there is nothing....NOTHING that puts the CO or pack on the hook. Scouting stuff happens while on scouting time. Personal stuff happens the rest of the time.

You missed one Oak: -pass out popcorn to unit leaders at RT as door prizes.

That's just it though...I am not "having" anybody do anything. It is not a scouting directive or order. It is not me doing it. I would be simply asking if anybody - of their own free will- would be willing to help the mom out. At that point, the mom is 100 % and entirely in control over wether she approves , disapproves or any other finer detail...which needs to be worked out between them.

"I disagree with Scoutfish on this one. If the pack leaders arrange transportation for a youth, Youth Protection Policies Apply, in my opinion. " Well, no and no. No, I didn't say the leaders arrange it. I am saying the mom could call or ask another parent. BUT still, If I ask : "Hey, is there any parent that lives near Scout X's hous who wouldn't mind giving hgim a ride to den/pack meetings?", then this is still not under the YP . It is no different than when they do it themselves or when at a movie, the park, at school, birthdays, whatever is done on personal time ( outside the pack). The leadership cannot be in charge of or control everything that happens before, after, around or even soimetimes during scouting events. I am responcible for me and the leadership under me. If The Smiths allow their son to hang out with , ride with or travel to/from whatever event with Mr Jones...my authority does not override that. I can only stop Jr from sleeping in Mr Jones tent!

Whatever happened to the good old days of $.25 comic books ? Remember those? Heros were just heros..for truth and Justice. Now days, they are moody mental cases who have issues and are angst ridden , love saturated sex crazed drama hounds! Remember who Batman used to chase? The Mad Hatter. He stiole hats! Now Batman is too busy worrying about wether Robin has a bigger codpiece or if woderwoman is secretrly chasing after Auqaman ...or worse, is Batgirl really Batmans secret love child from Woodstock? If she is, Batman is goona ground her because she has a thing for Twoface and his cool . hip styling split personality!

Looking at this from the most simple veiw ( even though it may not be this simple in reality)... Could another scout parent pick thsi child up on the way to den or pack meetings? I mean, somebody who is close by or passes by this scouts house on the ay to meetings? That would mnot be a YP issue at all since it does not involves the pack or leaders at the time. That is something between the mom and the other parent. As far as a mentor goes, the DL of his grfoup could be the mentor in the existing role he already takes as DL . In this position, he is already a mentor to all the boys in the den anyways..even if for only one hour a week. Campouts? A little bit more involved, but still doable. The boy could stay with any other parent that his mom arranges to act as guardian while camping, and when it comes to tent time, his tent could be right next to the adult who nagreed to take him along. Really, the biggest issue is having a parent in the pack agree to carpool or take a tag along while camping. Easier said than done, but the biggest pain would be to that parent and not the leadership of the pack.

Talking with a contractor yesterday, and the subject of US presidents came up. Not any one particular president, but US presidents in general. She asked me who I thought was a good president. WEll, I vcannot say that I think any president is a great or good president as an entire package, but I did like two things that two different presidents did: Regan: He came on tv one night and told us that we bombed Libya. He did not tell the news reporters about what we were going to do 3 months ahead of time, nor did he type it on facebook! Nope! He told us what he ALREADY did aafter he did it! SURPRISE! Clinton..whatever you think about the guy, he balanced the budget for a little while....before putting his John Handcock on NAFTA which pretty much killed everythinmg he did before that. So then she says to me: "What about the whole Monica thing? Don't you think the presedent should be a good role model and show good morals? And I told her this: My boss does not care I am single, twice divored, a brother husband, a polygamist, gay, tansgender, into voodoo, mimes, acid rock, nude body art, devil worship, or whatever..as long as when I am on the job - I am professional about my job. As long as I do my job in a timely manner, do it well and respesent the company in a good light...he dose't care if I wear pink tights while wearing fuzzy bunny slipers and a diving snorkle while watching a Three Stooges Marathon. And that's the way I see the president. I want a guy who is a great buisnesman as far as our economy is concerned. I want a guy who knows what the hell he is doing and can get the job done. As far as morals go...I do not ned a president or anybody else to watch. I handle mine my kids morals at home. If have to depend on a president or congrees man, teacher or any movie star for my morals..I am already lost. And that's how I feel about the prsedent. Just like my boss feels about me: He hired me to get the job done. He did not hire me because of what I do at home, or with friends ( illegal drugs and such not withstanding!). He doesn't care what I watch as long as I do what I was hired to do when I am at work. I do not care what or who the president does while at home or in the bedroom. I do care what and how he does when it comes to the budget, the country, etc... So how about you?

The "Ben Stein Award" patch for the leader who is as fun as watching paint dry! Bueller......Bueller......Bueller...?

Well, another year with my son as far as Cub Scouts is concerened, but after that, maybe the occasional trip somewhere. I'll still continue as CM for a while, but will be solo in the tent. It doesn't have to be 6' tall everywhere. I'm thinking that as long as I don't have to drop to my knees to get in.....and If I have enough rooom to sit up in a camp chair...I will be fine. My biggest issue is crawling out and standing uop, and the part where youi lay on your back with you feet in the air to put your pants on!

Well, Like I said, they started their own pack. At our pack, the CM,COR, CC, and Treasurer and such are all non related. No husband wife teams. WE require 2 signatures on the ckecks, and if it;s a reimbursment check to one of the 3 signature cards, the other two must sign it. We have full written and oral disclosure on treasury issues at all meetings. Thwo two who left us were DL and committee members. Since they strated up their own pack, they are combo CC, CM, Treasurer,COr. It's just a matter of time before that pack folds or burns.