Scoutfish

I used my firefighting as an example that I know tere are exceptions. BUT..... Lets be honest: Can I accurately and unbiasedly judge my own ability? Too many people think there are skilled enough, smart enough, ready enough to do "X". but they are not really ina possition to see themselves objectively. Again, I know there are natural born leaders and there are people who are just awesome people people! But I'd guess that vast overwhelming majority of us/them are not. "By contrast, Scoutmasters are people, and they don't "belong" to anybody" True, but they belong to a club. And that club said you must follow these rules to play the game. The members of that club signe a piece of paper stating they would follow the rules of the club! They don't have to be a member of that club because the club doesn't own them. You wanna play the game, either follow the rules or quit. And I don't see it being predjudiced any more than the states laws that say you can die for your country at 18, be arrested like an adult at 15, but cannot drink a ber after combat until you are 21. Yeah, there is a reson for it, even if I do not completely understand or like it.

Ooops! My bad. Even though Beavah was saying "gulag" .. I was hearing "Dulag" which is an entirely different situation that actually invoilved Nazism. So therefopre I retract my reference that Beavah's reference refered to the reference that Godwin's Law refers! My appologies!

Yeah, but you also have to realize, a parent who p[ays a bunch of money to send their kid to a chgarter school usually has a lot more blood sweat and tears involved in their kids lives too. Not knocking parents of public school, ( I am one) , but in a public school, you have a mix of parents: Some who barely wake their kids and get them dressed for school all teh way to those who are seriously committed to their children doing their very best. And without it being just one ethnic or geographical groupo...you know some parents will sue a tacher for thinking of punishing their kids. You know what I mean? They won't discipline their perfect angfels, will sue the school if teh school, does it, but have no more involvement in their childs life other than tossing out a bowl of cereal in the morning. Then you have parents who set the kids educatiuon as the higfhest of hishest priorities. Before scouting, before sports, before friends. These parents will pay for tutors, ask their kids EVERYTHING about their day, what went on and how school is going, not that they have to ask because they already know! So the parents who pay the money for charter schools are not the ones who make minimal effort just to satisfy the law. Another problem with charter schools becoming the main steam: Statistics and track records. I support free market all the way, but education should not be a part of it if it is education for all. What about the kid who just doesn't advance at the same rate as anybody else? he gets dumped of put intyo a rediculously simple program to improve his scores. THose scores are the calling card, and therefor the "how awesome we are" rating of those schools. And since we are talking about these schools being for profit, they will not stand for any student to ncreate a bad score.

"So why is it necessary to take the choice away from the competent adults who are in charge of and responsible for the individual unit? Because that's all a national policy does, eh? It takes discretion away from the local people who know the kids, the families, the candidates, the parents, and the chartered organization the best." WEll, there is another reason too: Just look at the Original Thread this was grabbed from; The competent adults made back handed deals to get what they wanted, but later backed out of that same deal to get what they wanted. Then take the folks who add to requirements as a condition of advancement. Look at troops that are either mills or adult lead in spite of the general idea that they should be youth run and lead. Look at those who expect scouts to print on paper AND copy to disk their eagle projects as a requirement to earn that Eagle, then also require not only a full uniform at an EBOR, but also consider the handbook a part of the rerquirement. Take the CM who thinks he is the ultimate voive of authority over everybody else including the COR. Or the SM who instates himself as SM withgout the vote, cionsideration or even agreement of anybody else on the Committee. Grown ups are the heart and soul behind the programs working... But they are also the gas and matches that burn the program down. So, even though I know there are exzceptions to everything in life ( scouting included) BSA's rule for 21 years old may be to prevent the folks who bed or break every rule from electing a 18 year oild SM, CC anD CM who would do even worse and dumber stuff that could cause the collapse of a unit or district within a few years. Again, there are some 15 year old boys who have twice the intelligence of some of the SM's , CC';s and CM's..but overall in a vast majority, it's better to have that small handful wait a few years than to chance having a majority of units to crash. And I say this based on having to wait 3 months to turn 18 to be a certified FireFighter Level 1 in the state of NC after having to get the approval ( in writing) from my school principle and County School BOE superintendant. I can tell you that I had more fire knowledge and experience than about 1/2 the members of my fire dept and I could make more intelligent decisions. But what I was lacking was the years of maturity to emotionally hyandle when things went wrong or when stuff defied the natural way of working. Plus, just as in firefighting, you ever see what happens when an 18 year old tels somebody twice his age what to do? Doesn't matter if it's correct thing to do or not...the older person is is jesitant and resistant to having a young snot nosed pun k telling him what to do. I became Captain of my Fire dept at age 19, and by 20, I was Assit Chief. By age 20, I was certified trained higher than most paid fire fighters and rescue workers in my statBut at age 17, I did not necesarily have the well bing ( mentally) to run a mass scale fire scene or Trama incident ( which happened a few years later by the way! Is the rule perfect? NOpe, sure isn't, but works an overwhelming majority of the time!

Well, noty quite Godwin's law. I wasn't saying your actions or arguement were nazi like, but referencing what you said my actions were: "I'm an old fellow, eh? I reckon lots of da younger folks don't remember da old Soviet and Chinese practices of encouraging neighbors to rat out neighbors and relatives to tell da authorities about any "suspicion" they had about mom or dad or uncle Joe. It was a Civic Duty. It was a great way of gettin' that annoying neighbor sent to da gulag. And it was monstrous" I guess that would be Godwin's law..right?

Now, I wouldn't mind if they wanted to give a "Camp refurbishment fundraiser" presentation. Again, I know camps are not expense and maintainace free. But again, in my council, we volunteer alot of trime at camps fixing, repairing and maintaining stuff. Strill, materials coast. If the SE or DE wanted to go from unit to unit to give a maintainace fund presentation...especially a month before camping begins , while last years camp issues are fresh in everybody's minds. But I also would like top see comment cards passed out at sign in at camp. Just like the ones at fast food restaurants. Let the VOLUNTER staff know what you likes, disliked, would like to see added or dropped, AND THEN...any maintainance issues you saw at camp. Then the SE/DE could adress these issues before asking for anything else!

Dessert...Oh wait a minute..let's back up! I am a CM. THis is pack camping. My hiking consists of about 30 feet from my truck. Granted, the only reason my truck is that close is that I pull the scout trailer with all the camp stoves, grills, coolers of food and waters. Backpack? last time I used one of those was in high school. Maybe in a year or so, I'll need to look at framed backpacks as my son goes into Boy Scouts, but right now....the longest hike I take with my tent is around 30 feet. Edited to add: I am also on my feet all day. I install garage doors so I am always on my feet or climbing up and down a few steps on my 6' step ladder.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

I just copied this thread and e-mailed it to my DE. He's really big on promoting this kind of service. He really pushes and promotes scouts attending the welcome home receptions for WWII vet Honor Fligts!

Nah, I love my air matress. I have used it in other situations, so I know it's not the matres that is the issue. I usually inflate it to around 90% in order to leave some give . It's not so tight I bounce around, but it is plenty full enough to keep me off the ground/floor. I put a sleeping bag over top of it and since I am sorta hot natured, I have yet to be cold. I have even sweated in 49 degree weather with this bag on top of the air matress. My problem is the bending over, being hunched over , and getting dressed inside my tent. I don't rfeally want to by a mobile home size tent, but I do want the height and just enough room to allow for a chair to use while getting dressed and putting on shoes. Yeah, means this glorious temple of a body is getting old and worn out!

See, now I am wondering about something else. Maybe my council doesn't do FOS at pack meetings and B&G events because of another reason: WE pay for most everything we do. You sign up, you pay for registration and for insurance. Then you spend $ after $ on books, uniforms, gear, etc.. Some parents think they must buy their tents, sleeping bags and such at the scout shop. Nobody tells them this, but they don't tell them otherwise. So then you have all the meetings, pack meetings, events and camping. All the leadership on the unit levels are within thier own units and not provided by council. CO's or even Den Leaders provide meeting space. Not the council. When I took BALOO, it was $25.00. That was for materials since all the instructors were volunteers. I drove 2 hours to get there on my own dime( not complaining , mind you, but that is how it is.). For Pow-Wow, I paid $30.00. Same 2 hours and same dime for gas. When I took classroom for Webelos DL , CubMaster, and a few others, it was taught by volunteers and people who recently completed WB. RT's are hosted/ emcee'd by our DE who will use any guest speaker/ presenter/ instructor at every chance he gets. Our resident camp staff was 100% volunteer excluding Camp Ranger and Council Program director - who was actually volunteering his time at camp. But the camp cost $110.00 for one parent/one son. Not including the shirt. Weekend cut short by rain/ stormy weather. Yeah, that's a chance you take, and I don't expect a refund, but that does mean extra profit was made by council. All events are lead, worked or hosted by volunteers. District banquet was hosted by a troop and crew. I paid $5.00 to get in, and ended up passing out brochures and working a few things. Webeloree hosted by a pack. Cost, $38.00 Spring camporee hosted by troop and pack. Cost $40.00 I volunteered to be our District camp promotions guy. It was volunteer. Our scouting for food coordinators were 100% volunteer. GTA people were 100% volunteer. When the council registrar comes to RT's to explain why something online is jacked up.... it's on her own time. Yeah, our council doesn't really do much in te way of FOS, but does do luncheons instead for prominant ( read $$$) citizens of the community. Maybe it's because it would be a slap in the face to ask us to not only pay our fees, dues and volunteer countless hours, but to ask us to pay even more money for doing what we do already? So yeah, they can say : Look at all the services you get, but most of trhose services are provided by the ones they are directing that comment to! NOw, I know that Council cannot work for free. Never said they could or should. I do realize there are costs. But even volunteers have to pay up just to volunteer while our SE is making $100,000.00 a year. I'm just saying that asking the people - who have footed the bill for everything they do and those who volunteered on top of that - for money for just being able to do what they do....well. it sounds alot like the mob asking you to pay "insurance" so yourt pack's CO doesn't burn down! Just saying...maybe that's why we don't have FOS presentations.(This message has been edited by scoutfish)

I'm not really wanting the width and length of this tent...I just want the hieght. I'm actually looking at another tent that has a smaller footprint, but is 80" tall. AS far as the rest of the pack: Some tents are basic two man domes. Some l;ook like the old school pup tents with a 3 pc pole on each end supported by two guidelines each. Some are 3 bedroom deals with a screen porch, second story balcony, deck,stellite dish, and a side garage and jacuzzi! Again, I only camp about 5-6 timers a year, and in the fall and spring, so I don't have to have a super high quality trek tent.

That is really cool!

Just spent two consecutive weekends camping. Matter of fact, between Council camping and pack camping..it usually ends up being back to back. Speaking of backs...OH MAN! My back is killing me after the second weekend of 2 night camping. But I think I might have figured out what makes it hurt: It's not my air mattress. I have it pumpe about 90% full. It's not my sleeping bag which is pretty thick. I think it's my tent....or the hieght of my tent. My tent is a basic 4 man ( read 2 man) dome tent. It's about 4 1/2 foot high at the middle. So , if I want to get into my tent, I have to hunch down and clear the rain fly ( I use a real tarp) and the ddor. Then I have to stay on my hands and knees the whole time I am in the tent. Getting undressed means unbuttoning my pants, then laying on my back and using my back and feet to hold my middle section up long enough to slide my psnts down , at which poiint, I still lay on my back, and stick my feet up in the air. REverse for putting pants on. Shirts: Have to sit on my matress and hunch over and pull shirt off while azlmost holding my breath. I am 6'2" tall. So I am thinkling of buying this thing: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Suisse-Sport-Wyoming-18-x-10-x-72-3-Room-Tent/2579728 Yeah, it's not a hike in the middle of Canada of Africa tent, but you have to figure IO only go camping 5 -6 times a year right now. And it's pretty much during the spring and fall - not summer or winter. My line of thinking is this tent is Taj Mahal enough that I have enough room to put a chair inside where I can sit down to get dressed, OR since it is 6 foo tall, I can just get away with bending my head slightly. I'm thinking this will cure my back aches,. Anybody else have this kind of experience?

Yeah, I wouild say it's simple: One is a shirt motto, the other is the Cub Scout Motto. But I also know I took my entire Bear ADL year to convince the scouts that you DO NOT HAVE TO burn the US flag if it touches the ground!

At any rate, there ain't no need to argue it. It's simple: You do as you feel you need to do. I will do as I feel I need to do. In the end, I am going to be the one I have to face to for criticism.

I say go for it. YOu won't know until you try. In our pack, we have several families that have 2, 3 and even for boys in scouting. At some point, somebody's older/ younger brother will have to interact together.. Just tell them they are not brothers at the meetings...they are scouts who just happen to be related!

I just want to clarify something: WE present rank badges as soon as they are earned. If only half the den earns it by the time a Pack meeting happens, then half the den will get it. If only one boy earns it, only one will get it. We do not hold them or make them wait. At our graduation ceremony, we hand out the necker of the next rank if they stuck out the year and come to the campout. The next rank necker is not dependant or a sequel to having earned rank. The old necker is taken off before they cross the graduation bridge, and the next years necker is tied on after crossing the bridge. Earning rank is not mentioned. We just introduce the Class of 2011-2012 Bears ..... or whatever rank they are going to be. Rank acheivement is awarded, recognized, and celebrated at Pack Meetings.

" The Green Swamp" of brunswick and Columbus Counties NC? Cool! Sounds like a great time and that some people are getting connected to nature. But isn't that the mosquito Mecca of the eastern seaboard?

Beavah, as a former Firefighter? Emergency Medical Technition..yes, I have dealt with all kinds of abuse: both emotional and physical. I also have witnessed it as a 8 year old as it happened even before I knew that it was considered abuse instead of just getting punched in the gut for bad grades ( neighbor across the street, not myself). The thing that makes me remove any credibilty for what your saying is that you compare reporting "POSSIBLE" YP infractions as being the same as The Gulag and the former East German secret police and the KGB. Even hints of Nazism there. Really? Is that what it is like to report something that looks and appears to be a viloation of YP? Do they really take scouters and adult leaders and shave their heads, tattoo their arms and toss them in camps? Do we get taken to prisoner slave labor camps? Maybe we have medical experiments performed on us? Or is that what most of us just call an EXTREMELY exagerated response to somebody doing a moral duty> I mean, what's the bigger issue? That somebody dares to question your or my actions? Then you say that if somebody does make a report, toss them out of the troop? Are you serious? If that's what you are going to do, then PR wise...you might as well call the local nes channel and say: " I am soooo damn gulity, but how dare they even think of calling me out for it!" - because that is exactly how it's gonna look. Talk about good ole boys and back room shady dealings! "Strip searching is better than patting down, and so if we strip searched and did full cavity exams on everyone's six year old girls, that might be one incremental step toward better safety from whatever lunatic group folks are being made fearful of this week." Yeah, and throwing everybody in jail before they have a chance to do wrong is even better, but that's not what anybody is saying..just like nobody is promoting stripping down 6 year olds. Better yet, let the terrorist on planes. Then tell the victims it's their fault for taking the chance of flying in the first place. Why the extremeism here? You know what I will do if the SE calls me about a possinble YP violation? I am going to fully cooperate with him, and whoever is involved ( if it's not me personally), answer any and all questions and show that I have done nothing wrong ..or at the very least - that if I did do something, I did it unknowingly and unintentionally and with good faith in trying to do my job as best as I can. I have at least a basic faith that the SE will look at, sort things out and make a reasonable, rational attempt to look at things. I do not think they have Guilty no matter what attitude. Now what really truely concerns me is that you seem to basically advocate, at every chance , that we ignore every rule BSA has because they are guidelines, and not really rules.They are most definantly not laws either. They are not written by Federal judges, so we don't have to follow them right? Thing is, the rules of youth league baseball or high school volleyball are not written in The Constitution either..but you better follow them if you want to play!

I bought my trained patch without having to show my card. I had it and was ready to show it, but they didn't ask. But if you plan to buy Eagle stuff or WB stuff..you better be ready to show them your papers!

You guys ( and gals) want to hear something amazing? I have never been to, seen or even heard of FOS presentations until this website! Our DE devotes an entire RT meeting to popcorn, and we have a Popcorn preview in about...uh oh. Last week! Maybe it's done on the council lever to people whos names are on some sort of high income $$ list. WE do have some very affluent neighbors hoods all around our Council offices. I mean 5 mil for a house in a gated community , affluent. Of course, we are on the coast so there are a good many people who have exclusive high $$ vacation homes aside from their regular homes. I don't know. I do know that in the 3 years I have been in scouting, not once has the DE ever asked us about a FOS presentation. Maybe we just do that good with our popcorn? Nah, that can't be it.

" Many people do not know or believe that Obama was taken to Indonesia and apparently his mother renounced his citizenship." I know what you are getting at Vol...But My own mother renounced half my friends, my love of rock and roll, the mullet hairdo I had a LONG LONG time ago and my pierced ear. But that didn't mean I renounced it. I had my own thoughts and feelings. Point here being that he ended up growing up in America. Had he truely stuck with a renonced citizenship state of mind, he'd still be elsewhere.

"Maybe a $100 per year registration fee would be a better way to fund our organization." I'll choose that option! I pay $40.00 in registration to my pack which splits it 50/50 with council/national. Then I pay $ 50.00 for my uniform pants, $39.00 for my uniform shirt, @$20.00 for my nylon Scout Jac wannabe because I cannot justify $100.00 for the real thing , then add in all the council patches, unit numbers, rank patches, shoulderloops, necker, slider, hat, socks, belt, name tag..... Oh wait, I haven't even gotten to my still growing 10 year old son who will need all new patchs and number in about a year in addirt tion to a larger size uniform. $100.00? Hell yeah,. I'll take that in a nanosecond!

My thinking isn't "strained" ..actually, your thinking is limited. It's limited to what you think. The 6 year old girl for example. Now, neither you or I can think of a reason to pat her down right? But what about the nutjobs who blow up building because their God said to in the name of what it right and just? Do you think they would have an issue with hiding a bomb on a 6 year old girl? Noipe! They sure wouldn't. And that's why a 6 year old girl will get a pat down in an airport. You ever see one of those Gerry Springer shows where an infant less trhat a year old is dressed in KKK pajamas? You think that parents who have that sort of mentality don't pass it on to their kidfs? What about the Timmothy McVeighs of the world who blow up buildings full of innocent adults AND CHILDREN? You think he'd have an issue hiding a bomb on a child to further his mission? So it comes down to this: You may not ever consider it or even comprehend why a person would do something that horrible..but the rest of the world doesn't operate with your veiwpoint. "Like I said, if we all follow suit, every SE in da country will be on the phone to Irving by the end of the month to get that wording changed back! " It's funny how you keep saying all these rules are wrong and how somebody wrote them down wrong frow what they used to be..but here's a thought: Maybe they were wrongly edited before and now, they are back where they are supposed to be..Or, in fact, exactly where National wants them to be even though they are not where you want them to be. "...we realize that da quote is actually meant to be taken in the context of the previous paragraph, which is referring to physical or sexual abuse, physical or emotional neglect, violence or threat of violence, sexual exploitation, child pornography, solicitation, enticement, or obscene material> And are you saying that none of that can happen in a car with my nephew? That it couldn't happen with the SM and the one child? EXactly what is going on at that time? Do you know Beavah? Where doers it start and where does it end? Or is it just a spontaneous start and end to such stuff. And you missed the entire point of what I said. One person calling the SE may not do anything, but if different people in different places and at different times call an SE and report one constant person, then a pattern starts to appear. One incident may mean nothing, 12 questionalble incident over 8 months also may be nothing, but absolutely are very worth looking into. And if the SE ignbores that..he's neglecting his job. As far as the people closest to you being the best judges..Not necessarily. There is a thing called being to close and too personal. You lose objectivity to the situation. The same thing with Doctors and judges. They are not supposed to operate on, attend to or preside over thier own family because their personal involvement usually ( but not always) cloudes their own judgement. Also, what if the person in question is you best friend in life if not just your best friend in the unit? Are you going to tell me that every adult leader is capable of standing back and making an honest and clear decision about a possible YP issue? What if two adult leaders are lifetime foes? What if they have an issue with everything each other does> You expect to get a real and objective assesment from that? WE used to have a lady on our committe who called some of us "un-Christian" because we did not agree with her to serve potato salad over boiled potatoes and green beans at a BBQ chiken Pack fundraiser. She then promptly quit helping with anything after that. Do you or I want her to be the one to judge something as delicate as a YP issue? Nah,. I don't even think so. Maybe BSA understood that. Maybe that's why the SE is the one who is supposed to be called . He does not have any personal involvement , and doesn't have anything to gain or lose over checking into a "REPORTED" YP incident. And it's just that: reported, not confirmed. Again, I'd much rather the SE call me because somebody called him about something they did not understand - than to have a child go through ANY KIND OF ABUSE because somebody was positive that thier friend wasn't capable of doing something like that! Again, the newspapers and tv news are full of stories of people saying : "Oh he was such a nice quiet guy who never hurt anybody. Everybody always liked him and he was so active in the community. We are just SHOCKED!" But you never hear people say: "I was just counting the days before the law got him, WE always knew he was doing that."

Hmmmmmmm.....wait a minute! That Ray Stevens' song said that elves were EVERYWHERE and that Santa was the head of the CIA. Elves or scouts with plastic surgery ? Hmmmmm?