Scoutfish

Sounds like you might need to make a reverse of that agreement when you pay a fee to go campoiung at a council camp. Something along the lines of if you are not 100 percent happy at camp or if any section of camp or any activity is dropped, canceld or done wrong - you get 100% of your fee back as well as any costs of gas, time and the necessary collection agency that collects your fee for you. What? What's this about you can't find my son'sd advancement of where a leader has taken YPT? He took it 3 times already! Why can't your system accept it? That leaders time and energy are not returnable, cannot be exchanged or refunded!

We cool? Or do I have to throw a DO dump cake at you?

SCOOTER? That's funny. Thanks! Really, I mean that. It made me laugh. Nah, what I am sayin g is this: If they are hiding it, then how are they modeling it? I am not saying they should hide it, or should flaunt it. I am not saying it's wright or wrong. All I am pointing ot is a technicallity: If there are gay scouters...and you do not know eho they are....then what gay behavior are they modeling? My reason being if they were modeling gay behavior...then you would know who ther are and it wouldn't be a surprise. Get what I am saying? I am not saying wether I feel their plight, or wether i don't unerstyand it. I am not condoning, advocating or fighting their cause. I am just sataing the obvious: If there are gay scouters ( and I have no doubt there are) ..then why don't we know who they are? SIMPLE! Because they are not modeling any gay behavior. They are not acting gay in front of or around us. They are not pecking each other on the cheek or giving long kss goodbyes in front of the scouts. Maybe they do that at home before going to the CO or meetin g place. Maybe they just don't do that/ Maybe they arm wrestle instead? I have no clue. But my point is - they are not modeling in in froint of anybody in a scouting environment or we would know they were gay. And truth be told, most of the ones who hide it probably hide it for a bigger reason than being kicked out of scouting. Probably more to avoid hate crime sor other visciuos attacks. Now mind you, I am not saying what could be or might one day be..I am taking about the here and now. If there is a gay person in your unit right now, I'll bet it's because you are not aware he/she is gay and that is because they do not display or model ( your choice) any behavior that would cause you to think they are gay. If they did, we both kbow they would be dropped out. So back to my original statement: "If they look like everybody else, then they must be acting like everybody else in public. So they are no more modeling anything gay than you or I." Meaning you can't tell who they are becaus4e they are acting just like us. And if they are acting just like us..then they are modeling what we model - not gay behavior. "You look for ways for gays to hide their lifestyle and still be gay. They don't need your cute clever ideas of how to hide because they have been hiding their homosexuality for thousands of years. " You are right on one part: they have been hiding it a long time. And that's what I am saying. You can't tell whio they are and they are not modeling gay behavior if they are hiding it. You are wrong on the other part as I am not loking for ways for them to hide it. It's obvious that they don't need my help. They have been doing it for thousands of years afterall! Right? And I do not try to justify, nor do I feel a need to try to help them. I don'yt attack them either. There is nothing I can say or do that would cause them to change their lifestyle, and I do not feel it is my place to try even if I could. I am just sating a simple fact: If they are hidiing their lifestyle..then how are they modeling it? And I wasn't calling you to task with that queston.....I was just making a casual observation.

I popped a bully in the mouth once. I also gave him no warning and he had no clue. The he unloaded on me. I fought back knowijng I was fighting a losing battle, but I didn't back down. I never had another bit of trouble from him either. We didn't walk off into the sunset with new respect for each other or singing Kumbaya or anything like thatr. We still didn't like each other, and we still didn't talk......but he never messed with me again. Maybe he respected me, or maybe he realized that I didn't have a victem attitude. I didn't really care what he thougt. I just knew it stopped.

Being in a pack, I guess things are diffrent for me than most of you. And I'll give anybody 3 guess as to what is the most common lost item... Anybody? Anybody at all? NECKER SLIDES! Anybody want to tell me how it is my fault, and my responcibility to know who each individual necker belongs to? So I have an attache case full of sliders, a couple neckers, a flashligh, a BSA carabbiner, 2 flashlights, and a compass. I just wait till somebody asks if I happen to have seen a "X". and if the describe it correctly, I give it to them.

Everybody sit down, hold onto your hat and maybe think about taking a drink: I am completely with Merlyn with the idea and concept o morality and wghere it comes from. Now, I do believe in God and I do have faith, but I personally know people who are agnosticm who are athiest and people who are ignorant of God in the true definition of ignorant in it's meaning of "Not aware of or having no concept of". I know a person can be moralistic and have high morals without having a God or gods. I know a person such as Merlyn can be very moralistic in their behavior by showing care and compassion towards others. Being moral is doing what you know and feel to be right, wether it helps your or even convicts you. Sure, a great moral code probably echoes and is very similar to many religious morals. But that doesn't mean you have to have God, a god or religion to be moral. I think we might use our religions as an authority to our owm moral codes, but that does not make Merlyn immoral or without having morals because he does not believe in God. It just means he is an athiest. Personally, I think a combination of what alot of people said describes morals really well. Same for reverence. What it means can mean many things to different peole. How it feels can only be felt by those who feel it. What causes you to feel it is personal and individual. Me? I can just look at clouds and feel a deep sense of reverence. I can't describe why, nor would attempt to, but just looking st clouds as the pass by and at the amazing textures, shapes and forms just feels me with a greatr feeling of reverence that I cannot even begin to describe.

One more thing.....APO defines a scavenger hunt as hazing also. REALLY? A scavenger hunt? I call that out as a mislabeling of what something is: If I send a new employee out to find a board stretcher, a sky hook, a (insert term here) to play a joke on him m- I can see where it might be considered hazing based on the intent of sending him out ( again - was it to embarass or welcome ). But a real scavenger hunt isn't hazing,. It's about fun and adventure and discovery and sometimes teamwork. It';s about meeting a challenge and sometimes discovering yourself and your ability. But I suppose that there is the person who just sucks at scavenger hunts. Maybe they feel embarsees that they aren'ty good at scavenger hunts. Then that person decides that they are hazing. Because it's all about them and nobody else. Shoot! I bet if that person can't successfully earn rank in scouting or doesn't do well in a BOR or EBOR...they might just call that hazing too. And then the ever vigilant pre lawsuit deflecting action team can convince BSA to drop the whole notion of rank, BOR's of any time or even having requirements that must be met. Uniform inspection ? I don't think so! You might embarass somebody who isn't in full uniform . Rank requirements? Uh-uh! Somebody might get mad or upset that they didn't meet all of them or fell just short! Now they are feeling singled out and humiliated when they don't have the same rank patch as the rest or when they don't get recognized at a COH. Where does it stop? Just saying, don't try to include every instance or use a blanket statement.

Fred the difference between that friend of yours and other people is the intent. Your friend purposely and intentionally acts that way because he gets off on it or seeing others in anguish makes him feel god. He does it with malicious intent. Now, I can tell you a story about one of my freinds: Way , way back in the day, we went to a bar on the beach to play a game of pool and possibly sample a alcoholic beverage or two. So we walk in the bar, and my friend says: "Hey, there is Brandy." He then walks up behind her, puts his hands on her waist and say something along the lines of " Hey baby - how about we go get a room?" And I swear to you, it looked like Brandy from behind. No, not favor her, not seem like her, but loooked exactly like her in the color of her hair, hair style, height, weight ( as far as I can tell) style of clotinmg and the stance she had. It was soooo not Brandy. Naturally, she was offended, took insult and felt she was being sexually hit on. And I don't blame her. But even though it appeared that way from her standpoint, my friend was only warmly and jokingly greeting a friend of ours in a sincere and funny way. His only crime was just being dumb enough to do sometinmg like that without being sure of who he was talking to. Now suppose we had 100 scouts gather around and took a survey. IF the survey asked how they felt about being the victem in a snipe hunt, and what emotions they felt afterward. Suppose 99 of the 100 boys said it did not bother them and they had no negative feelings....would it still be hazing? And vice versa, if 99 felt it was hazing, can we say the one scout is mentally flip flopped? I say it depends on who the victem is, who the perpetrators were, and what the intentions were behind it. Back when I was on the fire dept, after a new person joined, we had themm stand up on a chair and sing ( to the best of their ability) "I'm a fireman, that's my name" by ...ummm..whoever it was that sang it. WE all cheered and clapped afterward, patted the guy on the back and would always say : "Don't quit youyr day job." WEre we hazing> Nope! And zI will tell you why: Because we did not do it to embarass or humiliate. We did not do it to cause hurt feelings . We were not malicious in our intent. Simply put, we wrer just a little bit ( well , alot) to redneck to get all dressed in uniform or suit and tie and hold a formal joining ceremony. It also showed the casual atmosphere of a bunch of people who felt like family. Again, the intent means everything. And we also did not make yoistand on a chair, but encouraged in a friendly way. One lady said she could stand on a chair in front of us because she might puke! WE said thanks for warning us and clapped her on the back ansd welcomed her just as much as we welcomed anybody - even though she didn't do it. And that's the difference between hazing and just a fun initiation : We didn't requiore or force it, and it wasn't for malicious reasons. OGE, I am not saying that you should get over, or feel different about what happened to you. Never implied it either. Personally, I look at what it is we want to do, why we want to do it (meaning what we expect out of it) and who it is being done to. I do not make it a one size fits all definition because peoiple are not a one size fits all group. Each person veiws, and takes things differently.

WEll, the biggest thing we want to be careful about is making a one size fits all statement or use a blanket word. DEcieve for examople: Are we talking about the Japanese representatives who decieved us right up to the attacks on Pearl Harbor, or a wife who has been cheating on her husband for years, or mom and dad having their kids believe in Santa Claus, or when I arrange for my moter in law to drag my wife around the corner while I have all her freinds come over for a surprise birthday party? In all of those, tere was some decepton, and technically, I lied when I told my wife I was going to do yard work when she left with her mom to go to a strore. Instead of yardwork, I was putting up party decorations in triple overtime speed, having a 200 pound hog brought in nthat had ben cooking at a neighbors house and shuffling 45 people inside and hiding them as well as treuir cars. So when my wife gets home, not only did I ndecieve her, but so did her mom and all her friends. But wouldn'y you consider that different than say...if I was cheating on her behind her back? I am not saying that OGE didn't have a bad experience, or tha we should encourage people to have to sing whenever they forget something....heck..I'd have a signing career right now if we did! I am just saying that everything is not simply bhazing, abuse, decieving, or lying. Another case in point: You wife gets dressed for the council banquet. She goes over the top with her makeup and puts on - in your opinion - an ugly dress and shoes . She asks you how does she look. I garantee 99% of you are going to lie and be decietful at that moment!

" Most of us agree that even now there are likely gays mentoring our kids in the BSA. What you really want is general acceptance for them publically role model a gay lifestyle to our sons." Really now? I mean, if they are there , and you can't spot them, you don't know who they are, or how long they have be there...then what is the "publically gay lifestyle" they are modeling? If they look like everybody else, then they must be acting like everybody else in public. So they are no more modeling anything gay than you or I. And that's not what I got out of Basement's statement anyways. What I got was this: "If I don't tell you my orientation, I don't drecognize gay behavior to start with....in which caseisplay any orientation, they how do you know or come by the opinion that I would be gay?" Guess what, last night, our DE, our District Boy Scout camp promotions chair and myself ( disrict cubscout promotions chair) all rode together to camp for a council camp promotions meeting. 1 1/2 hour ride. We laughed, joked, and had all kinds of fun. Got to the BB&T training center at campm and the DE patted me on the back for something I said was funny. Suppose one of the other DE's saw that. Should they ask if he's gay? What about me? Maybe they should ask about me. What I am saying is based on the original post, somebody went on a witch hunt. As far as how the program was being handles by the mom, how her performance was going, and how the boys did ...GAVE NO EVIDENCE to any modeling of a gay lifestyle. She was not teaching anybody to be gay. Of course, you don't teach gay anyways. Point is, if the guy beside you at a RT is gay and has been ...and you don't know it....what gay behavior is he modeling? Unless it means we couldn't or wouldn't recognize it to begin with. So if that's the case.... what's the uproar about ?

Yep, definantly loaded terms. I completely agree with Beavah here. In another thread, willful disobedience was brought up, and it was stated that scout doesn't disobey just because he doesn't l;ike somethiung, but instead sees to get that changed. No, not an exact quote, but you know what I mean. So suppose a ASM or Sm decides to have a scout who lost...whatever..to stand up and sing. Does the SPL be obedient to the SM or ASM and go along with it..which is also showing loyalty to not only the SM/ASM, but to the rest of the troop because "forgetful scout" causes delays in what the troop schedule. Is thst being loyal and obediant? Heck, that is also being trustworthy to the adult leadership too. But what if the SPL stands up to the SM/ASM and says that this is not acceptable. What then? That scout is willfully being disobediant in the name of scout law and spirit. KInda like Civil disobediance. Being loyal and obediant to the scout law and spirit...but still not going through the proper channels to see that things and or rules change rule. Then suppose "that" scout is not hazed under the guise of being a unruly or disobediant scout. And you that is only cracking open Pandora's scouting box! Yeah, just following the scout oath, spirit, law, promise, etc,,, ought to be enough...but the problem here is that it leave plenty of room for interpretation! But we all already know that don't we!

Well, although it is correct that you can only be registered in one position within a unit....You do not have to register yourself for everything you do. Also, everything in your pack does not have to be registered. In the real world, members have 2, 3 and sometimes 4 hats on their heads. In our pack, the PWD chair is not a position that we have registerd at council. Nor is popcorn kernal, public realtions chair, camping chair, ceremonies chair, GTA chair, or beach chair., You have to have Adult leaders , CC , treasurer, and COR registered. Our PWD is also a DL, our camping chair is a dl. Our advancement and awards chair was also a DL. They were registered as DL's and not the other positions since you do not have to have a PWD chair - no matter how great an idea it is. So for your question of: "Can a den leader also serve on the Pack Committee as the Outings Chair?" Yes, they can serve as many positions as they are capable before their heads explode! They just can't register but one.

OGE; Both! What if scouts are joking around based on what they read as a skit in a book sold at a scout shop. The one scouts feels like he is the victem of hazing and reports it to a leader. That leader may decide it is hazing when it isn't. Likewise, suppose the older scouts like to have an innitiation ceremony for all first time scouts at cxamp by making them do double their share of duties or due extra work? Maybe they break down the new guys tent or steal his towle and clothes while he is in the shower and causes the new scouts to have to run nakes (or with very, very minimal covering) back to their tents only to find their clothes have been taken. The rest of the scouts might think it's a harmless joke and some of your more hardcore many-man leaders might think it's a good way to get the new scouts to man up. In times like that, wat hazing means is very important. As for "an attitude of how scouts and scouters are to be treated?" same thing. Define that. Like adults telling aboy weho does not have his book that he is out of unifrom when it clearly is not on any BSA uniform or insignia guide. Not very scoutlike is it? Or is it ?

fred8033, I'm still not 100% on wether to call the singing incident hazing. In bad taste? Unneccesary? Lacking in good judgement? I'd even say flat out stupid and thoughtless and inconsiderate. But not 100%sure about hazing. But my post wasn't about the singing at all actually, it was exactly what I said it was about: The definition provided by APO. And in that definition, all my examples would be considered hazing based on the APO definition , not my definition. Even in schools that still alow corporal punishment ..ie paddling, the instances where teachers have student do conntinuous jumping jacks, or stand at a chaklboard with their nose in a circle , or even standing at the front of the room would be defined as hazing. Is it? I don't know. I have been subjected to all 3 of those. And truth is, I can say I deserved it and given the choice at the time - definantly would have chosen tat over going to the priciples office and recieving a paddling. So far, I haven't had any neurotic tendancies ( at least that is what the voices tell me ) or desires to kill anybody. I don't have nightmares, and I don't go to counselling or take meds of any sort. Was I ambrassed about what I had to do? Sure I was. But not as embarassed as experiencing "super" flatulence during quet time in class, throwing up in the library due to a stomach bug, tripping in the hallway and scattering books and papers everywhere , having a girl turn me down in front of everybody, losing a pencil fight or arm wrestling competition, or...well...I could go on all day. Thing is, none of that stuff scarredme for life. It was just stuff that happened . And it happens to everybody at some time or another. Funny thing about what could be considered hazing is that alot of people who feel they are victems of hazing...will eagerly want to participate in doing the same thing to the next "victem". So my whole entire point is this: Hazing still will have to be judged on an individula basis an d take into consideration of what it was that happened, who it involved, why it was done and what the intended outcome was expected to be. And I will give an perfect example of what I am talking about: This is a skit from www.boyscouttrail.com This Skit has gross parts. Required: 2, 3, or more unsuspecting volunteers. 2 scouts to run the skit. a chair. Preparation: set the chair center stage. select your volunteers and have one scout take them back stage where they can not hear what is going on onstage. Notes: The skit only works well if the volunteers have not seen it before so it can't be done very often. You might want to have an actual prize that gets the contestants trying their best. Script: Back stage, the scout tells the volunteers they will be in a contest to get the audience to guess their job. Give each volunteer a different job - racecar driver, weightlifter, horse jockey, newspaper delivery boy, ... whatever you can think of that might be interesting and can be done sitting on a chair. Each volunteer is sent onstage, one at a time, to get the audience to guess their job. Meanwhile, onstage, the other scout is telling the audience that the chair is a toilet seat and we'll see how each of the volunteers use it. Call out the first contestant and see what happens. When the laughs die down, have him stop and get the next contestant. By APO's definition, this is absolutely hazing. Another one : Ugliest man in the world skit Required: 1 good-humored adult victim. 6 or more scouts a blanket or jacket to cover one actor's head One scout is the ugliest man and is under a blanket. Another scout is the circus caller getting brave people to pay money to see the ugliest man. The rest are customers. Script: Caller: Gather round! Step right up! Who is brave enough to gaze on the face of the ugliest man in the world? Only 25 cents! Step right up! Hey, you there - are you brave enough? Scout #1: Sure, I'm brave! Here's your quarter, let me see him. (Scout #1 walks up to ugly man an peers under the blanket at his face. He then screams, falls back, and faints.) Caller: Now that was a brave lad! But, he didn't have the fortitude of character to withstand the ugliest man in the world. How about you, sir? Are you strong enough and brave enough? Scout #2: Ha! You better believe it. Here's two bits. Now, let me see him. (Scout #2 peers under the blanket with similar results.) (repeat this for all the scouts until they are all fainted.) Caller: Certainly there must be someone here brave and strong enough to view the ugliest man in the world and live to tell about it. Anyone? How about you, sir? (addressing the leader or other unsuspecting adult. Coax him up or work on someone else until someone is convinced to try.) When the victim looks under the blanket, the ugliest man in the world screams and runs away in fright. So, you take unsuspecting people. make fun of them in front of everybody and a nd laugh as hard as you can. Again, according to APO, that would be hazing. But if the "victem" has a great sense of humore, and enjoys it..is it really hazing? What if a simple joke is not enjoyed? Waht if the victem dosen't even like to have his name called for awards recognition? Then in his mind, wouldn't everything you do that causes him embarassment be considered hazing? What if mom and dad feel the same way? So again, my point is - and having nothing to do with the signing - you can't just have a set defintion of what hazing is. You have to judge it on an individual cae by case basis , and take alot of things into consideration.

I'd say hazing would indeed nave to be judged based on the individual circumstances of eeach incidenty, who is involved on both sides, why and the expected outcome. As APO defines it above, then just simply asking scouts to recite the pledge of allegience, say the scout oth, holding pack or troop meetings or holding an EBOR would be considered hazing. Having a scout earn rank as described by the boy scout handbook would be hazing, and almost anything my son does at school would be hazing. If the teacher asks my son to step up to the...well, we used to csall the blackboards...dry erase wall sector - and figure out a math problem, write a sentance fragment or even draw a diagram for science - and my son is embarrrassed and stressed by it....that teach is hazing my son. If I ask the scouts and all audience present at a pack meeting to syand up for a audience participation song...I guess I am hazing too. Hell, If I call a cub scout to stand up for any awards earned, and he's shy or embarassed to stend in front of everybody...that would be hazing . Hopefully, good common sense will prevail and people will understand waht is real hazing and what is just being alive and breathing. But a standard set definition will get you in trouble where ther shouldn't be trouble and could cause hurt feelings when there wasn't any to begin with.

"*You* are the best scripture a boy may ever read. How you act, not what you say, will help him determine if this reverent thing is all it's cracked up to be. " I couldn't agree more. I see too many parents and leaders who say one thing, then do another. A scout leader who tells a boy to be hisbest and hold the boy to high standards, then that same leaders is at the back of the aprking lot, cussing a smoking 3 cigarettes in a row while telling 3 budies about the latest hot piece of butt he wants to tag after seeing it on the beach when he went on a drinking binge with his buddies.......in front of his son ..out of his wifes earshot. No, I ain't perfect, but I try to lead by example when around the boys instead of just shooting off at the mouth about how they should be acting.

Great point packsaddle! I have learned more stuff on this site than any leader book or training. Cool cooking tips and ideas. Great ideas for PWD and B&G. Projects and crafts too. Then there are policies. MOst of what I have heard here I can then go and find out after having a specific idea of what to look for. But then you have that "common knowledge " thing too. I have seen stuff written in here that was purported to be fact when it actually goes against the very sourse they were quoteing or claiming to be speaking of. Look at all the people who are intimantly involved in BSA as leaders, volunteers and committee. Not even counting the professional side. Look at all the dissagrements over what a word or what a rule means. Look at all the controversy over what "active" means. But thanks to this forum..I know what is going on. I know what BSA thinks and wants- except when the wrong people who don't know give answers, and give wrong answers when they do. Except they don't say when they are wrong or give wrong answers. Simple right? Look at all the controversy over wether a scout is required to wear a unifrom to a EBOR and if he does, what about the scout handbook? Is it part of the uniform or not? Are we adding requiremenst or not. Just because they are good ideas does not mean we can add them. And that's just the easy stuff. That stuff isn't as touchy or complicated as religion and what defines a good versus bad moral.

" Come-on, who doesn't know? " People who have yet to have their sons recruited or who have yet any experience wit BSA. Don't fall into the trapo of thinking everybody is aware of and as knowledgeable as you...when you are a part of something they are not. Know what I mean? I'll give you an example. Way back when I was taking the classes for Emergency Medical Technition..our instructor was discussing veins and arteries and people who were crying out for help. She then tells us that if a suicide patient cut thier wrist crossways to their arm - than that patient really did not want to die, but wanted help. BUT...if that patient cut their arm parallel to their arm( going from wrist towards the elbow) that they were seruious and really meant to kill themselves. Why? Because EVERYBODY knew that cutting crossways will result in your elastic veins pulling back in, closing up and clotting after some minor blood loss. WEll I(MAGINE THAT! Everybody already knew that! Except most people don't know. They know what they see on tv and what they hear and what they "think" they know. And another example: Me! Before my son came home and told me about signup night at school..I had no idea what BSA represented other than the little bit you see on tv or what is "common public" knowledge..which isn't worth much and highly innaccurate most of the time. People think Boy SCouts and think of scouts helping old ladies across the street and waving flags in parades. Would you believe that I had no idea whatsoever that scouts sold popcorn until my son joind scouts? Never heard of it, never saw it, never had anybody approach me or try to sell to me. Never saw it at a storefront either. NOTHING!!! Did any of you know that when it comes to fire depts, the lowest priority is trying to save trhe house/building on fire? 1) Protect yourself and stay out of harm's way above all! 2) Prevent any further harm or death to the public. 3) Prevent the spread of danger or destruction to other property. 4) Confine damage and destruction to property involved. And after all that, if you can, you can try to save the propert on fire. But "public knowledge" knows that firemen are supposed to save your house. Point being, just because you knowq and I know what goes i=on in BSA - doesn't mean those outside BSA do. Whjy should they? They are not taking training, they are not reading the boks, they are not doing anything except maybe dropping their kids off - unless they don't have kids in BSA..in which case, they know as much about BSA as I do about Girl Scouts which honestly is this: They are girls, and they have awesome ccokies! Other than that, I have no clue what their mission statement is, who is in charge, who they allow ( girls right?) and what the requirements are. As I have no daughter...I don't really care either,. I have no vested interest or compelling reason to find out as it won't affect me. That make sense?

I agree too. I also wonder if trying to explain the importnace of reverent is a waste of time because...well, telling it's important is not going to make you feel it. Either you do or you don't. Something may hapen that changes your views and feelings, and any forthcomming experience might actually cause you to become reverent about something. But will me explaining how important it is make you feel it? Nah, Either you do or don't feel it. But on another note - and borrowing from what Baden P said: " God or the supernatural really does transcend our own limited vocabulary or ability to explain except on a very superficial level. God is truly experiential, and each experience is unique to that individual receiving it. Humanity loves to try to define "God" within the limitations of our own human experience, however the true understanding of "God" can not be done within set limits, but rather goes way beyond our own cognitive abilities. All we can do as humans is relate our own personal experiences in our feeble attempts to explain the nature of "God" to another person." WEll maybe, just maybe that's the line between athiest, thiests, and everybody else. Maybe the fact that an athiest doesn't describe his experience in a way that we understand it. Maybe we don't explain our veiwpoint to an athiest the way we feel it. Maybe we have excluded very reverent people who, due to failings of explanation and vocabulary on the human level , who in fact, have very revernt feels all the time. Maybe their reverence isn';t limited to a singular name of a common idea of God. And then taking the qoute: "God is the sum-total of all the natural laws in the universe." Then you have to readily admit that people who worship the earth, all anikmals and mother nature just might be doing the same thing as us, but in different words or definition. Toe-may-toe / tah-mah-toe Is that stop sign scarlet, red, crimson,bright rose,or claret? WEll, yes is is that color! Do you wear slacks, trousers, pants, britches, or leggings( not the spandex ones). Where is your house, home, abode, residence, dwelling, or shelter located? I have a freind from Penn who asks me : "Do yens want a pop?" And she is asking me if I want a carbonated drink. Some of my friends say soda, soda pop, cola( in a genmeric way) , and even a fizzy. Me? I say Coke, Pepsi, Mountain Dew, Dr.Pepper, etc..I have never used a common one size all name for drinks. Don't know why, just nevcer did. I also use the word "ain't" in both speaking and typing as well as "reckon". Just something to think about. WE may be excluding some of the best volunteers on earth based solely on human limitaions of human experience.

While I have no doubt that BSA and the local unit involved would come out on top if it were to go to court...I can easily see where and how a parnet might want to sue BSA after filling out an adult application. I am not gay, not bisexual and I do not have 15 wives( are you kidding me? One is ENOUGH!!!) But this subject was not brought up at my very first contact with BSA - which was at a school sign up night. Not a single mention of who is considered an asset ot who is considered an unwanted. After going to the pack orientation meeting...nothing at all said about who is considered the ideal moral candidate for scouts or parents or leaders. Soon, due to my invovlement with helping out, I was asked to be on the committee and handed an adult aplication. SUre, I checked off that box that says I would follow the Declaration of religious priciples....which were explained to me that I must be a good moral person, not be a pedophile, abuser. felon, etc... I got the point. BUT.... still no mention from anybody about hwat BSA's specific policies or standards were as to what moral, educational , and emotional qualities were. And lets be honest..at this point of entering into the family known as BSA..pretty much everybody goes by what they are told. At this point in anybody's BSA carrer, you have no forward or previous knowledge of what is and what isn't allowed, policy, or such. You are not aware of G2SS, YPT ( when I joined, it wasn't required to be taken before the application was filled ), and any required or extra non required training. You do not know where to go for resources or online info. Why? BECAUSE you are BRAND NEW to the program. So, while I am not taking sides on what the policy is...I completely and totally see where people are surprised by BSA when they later are ejected or find out about somebody else getting ejected by BSA for being homosexual. Now

Yeah Basement, I do believe you are absolutely correct. And the thing is...we might see one every week, every month, or every day and not even know it. Maybe that's why BSA doesn't have a specific list of what they think are good education, emotional and moral qualities. But I do think that while shortridges question is about a long hashed subject,,,his specific question and the resulting answer are something I have specifically not sen before. I mean, he's not asking anybody to justify WHY they feel the way they do, or wether iot is moral or not. He is just asking for a written statement or passage that specifically states what we "common knowledgely" know as a BSA rule.

Let me preface everything I say by letting you know that I am not taking sides, nor am I saying what is wright or wrong. Shortridge; That is an awesome question, and I am willing to bet that nobody will be able to give you the answer to yout question. OldGreyEagle; "The applicant must possess the moral, educational, and emotional qualities that the Boy Scouts of America deems necessary to afford positive leadership to youth....." Although technically correct, this still does not say anything about gays not being allowed. In fact, that statement actually encourages more problems and issues that BSA simply saying " Gays are not allowed." Why? Because there is not a definant standard of moral, educational and emotional qualities that BSA is looking for. I mean - suppose I decide right now that I make my entire life's calling that of following BSA's moral, educational, and emotional qualities. What are they? Where are they listed and how do I know for sure that I am following them and not just implied morals of an individual professional scouter wether at Irving, my council or distric? And whon is to say which set of undefined morals we follow if there are more than 1 set? What if Maccuzzas ( spelling?) are different from Tico's? WEhat if the National key 3 all have different ideas? What then? Still yet, even on the religious side, some churches and denominations are not only accepting gay members, but openly support gay leadership in the way of preachers, pastors, and bishops. Yeah, thye are splitting and dividing amongst themselves, but the point is...there isn't just one religious veiwpoint. And that's not even considering other countries and non western religion. Again, I am not talking sides, just saying that BSA does nolt say what it specifically is that we are not supposed to agree to. Tommorrow, an adult who is gay, who deeply believes in God and considers himself to be very religious may fill out an application and check that box. As long as he feels he is of good moral, educational and emotional character, then you know what...we can't say he's shystering BSA or lying to anybody. All we can say is there is yet again, another point of veiw on the table. BSA needs to flat out say: WE allow this:......" and we doi not allow this"......." No wordplay, no beating around the bush, no word games. So, while BSA definantly said we need to agree to their ideals...they also need to tell uis what those ideals are instead of lettying us assume we know what they mean. Because what you assume or "How do I know this? Instinct?" might be different from my assuming or instincts. Again, not taking sides with who "thinks" what, just sying so far, all we have is a bunch of thinks this and thinks that. Another point: Look at all the threads on this site. People cannot agree what specific definitions and guidelines mean. People cannot agree on who is supposed to run what and who is in charge. How we ever gonna have a unanimous agreement on what good morals are or education or emotions? BSA needs to write it down and be specific. But if they do...they might find themselves losing alot of people who thought they were on the same page but ended being in a different book entirely.

Yeah, open house nights must really suck! We do our signup nights a couple weeks after school has been started. Yeah, it would be nicer to have it earlier, but you gotta think about all the money mom and dad spent on school supplies, school fees, new clothes, new shoes ( I bet there is a million dollars worth of new shoes in school on the first day), etc... Then the schools want you to buy a yearbook, a school keychange or some other junk, sign you up for parent volunteers, PTA, after school youth programs, help with bake sales, and other fundraisers. My son comes home from school on the first daty with money forms for a school t shirts, school band equipment and uniforms, school pictures, and selling school candy too. Then you ask them to spend how much on council fees, coucil insurance, pack fees, then you sayu : "oh yeah, here's the uniform they need and the books and the necker and thetent, sl;eepimng bag.... Yeah, waiting a week or two after school starts and letting everybody get settled in sure makes things easier for us by far!

Down here.....it doesn't get that cold until around mid November or Early December,. By then, the wood will be more than plenty dry and ready to burn with nice coals.

Could be somebody who just doesn't have tact or understand personal space.....but you'd think you would hear about it happening at alot of units. I think the guy is unbalanced a bit and favoring somebody.