qwazse

It's okay to tell people "I'm sorry, I forgot,your name?" I saw the VP schmoozing on our town's parade route yesterday, and he acted fine that everybody new him, and he was letting complete strangers take his picture give him their babies to kiss, etc.... But along those lines, it is also okay to make tough decisions like you are going to trade off one responsibility for another, so if you take on a position, you do so in a way that will do the most good. Turning down a position because under the circumstances, it's the better decision for the boys -- could fall in that category. It sounds like you helped the SM get the bigger picture, and maybe he'll still tap you as a resource. You can put him in touch with adults who will help him call "BS" on his dysfunctional committee. There was a time as a new crew advisor (the first one I ever met), my trainers did exactly that for me. I used the folks on our council's Venturing committee and the VOA as a sounding board. I could ask them, "Am I crazy?" They would reply, "Yes, but you are also right." That kept me going for several months until the adults in my troop and crew got on the same page. And the unit numbers on your shoulder won't have to match for you to provide that service!

I'll add this to a number of things to be prepared to call "BS" on. But, I have only seen this discussion in these forums. Must be in SW PA one doesn't come between a boy and his knife.

Keep in mind that Christian CO's are tasked with welcoming non-Christians into their community, so they will give support to programs that allow that. So. If AHG comes off as turning away families who,would rather keep church at arms length,the adult leaders might hear from the institutional head.

Naw, what shows the CO that we care enough to go above the minimum is lots of youth filling their building, posters of their exploits each year, the food pantry full when times are tough in the community.

Hammocks. Wipes. Portable camp showers are possible, but set-up is time consuming. BTW, the young women in my crew disdain cabins. Even sailing, they prefer to sleep topside.

Double post(This message has been edited by Qwazse)

Hammocks. Wipes. Portable camp showers are possible, but set-up is time consuming. BTW, the young women in my crew disdain cabins. Even sailing, they prefer to sleep topside.

The SPL doesn't need to be defending tradition to parents. (Bully for him if he can.) He should be helping carry forward thos traditions. The SM should be laying out new ideas, and many of them will come from the parents. I take suggestions from adults constantly, I try to compile them so the officers in my crew can evaluate them and contact the adult about implementing them. For a driven adult I can see how this can come across as stonewalling, but it helps the youth maintain a say in their unit.

Thanks, SR I'm in! Both the troop and the crew would love this! I'll tell them I heard it from you first! (This message has been edited by Qwazse)

Now that you all have beaten this horse from three sides, I'll take a crack from my soapbox ... This is all about an unfounded reliance on EDGE. The SM believes that the only way to learn is I'd someone Explains something. This means Johnny new scout needs someone to do the explaining. In an attempt to be youth led the SM appoints his PLs to be explainers - among other things. Not just explainers of how to hike and camp safely, but how to sew patches! Not patches on tents or rucksacks, or torn jeans (because heaven help us you weren't wearing your uniform that day), but pricey patches on pricey shirts of seemingly delicate space age fabric! This is not the context in which you refer a loving mom to a PL, this is where you ask "was there something in the book that is unclear?" And then you offer, "maybe you and me and Johnny can look at an example together." Then you ask, "has Johnny ever tried to sew? This might be a good opportunity to show him how. It's fine if he only gets one or two patches done by next week. Because although we use a uniform method, it's just as important that he dig into that handbook and impress hid PL with some scoutcraft that interests him. After all THE BEST WAY to learn is by reading it for yourself first." If you want to teach independence, teach people how to leverage their references!!!!

Then you answered you own question, I think. Change must happen. But, you signing on isn't going to make it happen. Your vote of "no confidence" delivered as courteously as possible is the best chance for this troop to address basic issues first. Hold out for the next troubled unit to come along.

Instead of knots, you should get an app that scrolls them on your iPod, and velcro the iPod above your pocket! Then you could touch the knot and it would tell you what you did to earn it (while playing patriotic music in the background).

The question is not really what are you gonna do to fix it but whether this is indicative of what this troop interprets "boy-led" to be. Hard fact: boys do stupid stuff. (Like getting impatient and under-cooking meals.) They don't usually tap the resources at their disposal to avoid stupidity. ("Mr. SPL, are these eggs done enough?") Other hard fact: it doesn't kill them. Usually doesn't even make them sick. Piece of grace: usually someone notices (e.g. your friend's son) and won't let them live it down for the rest of their scouting career. This has a very strong preventative effect! That's why I try to encourage moms to keep up with the camping, even if it's one weekend a year. Just to address your very concerns, and to see how they grow in discipline as the years pass.

I review go/no-go decisions with youth on Thursday night, and we work toward a consensus. (For the venturers I print up the NWS forecast and the hourly weather graph and put it on the table with no explanation and say, "Interpret." Then we work through the implications.) Unless: 1. My drivers don't feel up for it. (E.g. old tires + fresh snow + hills.) 2. The ranger report is truly threatening. 3. Conditions are completely the opposite of what we've prepared anyone for. Any of the above and I'm cancelling grudgingly the hour before! SM and I did so last month (impending ice storm). Even then, I give a careful explanation to the youth in charge. And yes, I'm still second guessing a month afterword!

I'm usually in the position of insisting to a parent that lil' Johnny can't go because he did not qualify for x y or z! And this is one when parents are divided I take a long step back. If you're losing sleep, try not to wake the Missus! Bigger picture: his swimming ability is a problem. It must be overcome, because frankly, I don't see your troop backing off of aquatics anytime soon. When he comes back and you have a moment give him a "one of the things that everyone expects of a First Class scout is ..." lecture. If there's a seasoned instructor (scout or scouter) who works with tough cases, invite him over to your house to give the boy a few pointers. This doesn't have to be done right away, and it might not work instantly. But boy's gotta know this is important to you to know that he's prepared when all of AZ is back under water!

Thanks mom! Okay, given the gory details, MIB: Stipulate to the COR that you will take a leadership position when they replace the current CC. These folks have to understand that interviews are two-way mirrors! They often tell more about yourself than your candidate. For all intents and purposes, this means you won't be the SM or ASM anytime soon, but making your opinion clear may the wake-up call the troop needs to set it's compass true! The above sounds impolite, but you just felt the blindside. Just think if you agreed to that mish-mash position thinking "Oh well, I'll just have to figure out how to work around everybody." Sooner or later your actions would offend someone deeply. This way, if you do come into this troop in either position, you've laid the groundwork for what needs to change.

Scouts camping in a public area is nothing new. Saw some 1914(?) newsreel footage of some scouts clambering over a wall at a public venue (grass field and such). Lots of passers by watching. Pretty sure it wasn't backwoods. Yes, ball field camping should count. Yes, if that's all you do it's kind of pathetic, but if all you do is run off to the big woods and gnaw sassafras root with your venture patrol, that's kinda pathetic too. Variety is the spice of life. The point of getting into tent-camping IMHO, is to learn a little resourcefulness and not drain your wallet on lodging every time you travel. Teaching a boy to do that for a ball game may help him when he's older and married and has to visit friends' weddings but has not socked enough away yet to justify a hotel. (Oh, my poor wife!) nn -- if there is an trained adult from another troop willing to go, that's all you'll need to cover the tour permit.

I am FINE with my son going hungry because of say, not enough food (i.e. poor planning), but I am NOT fine with him getting food poisoning (i.e. poor supervision). Does that make sense? Sounds like we have a volunteer for cooking merit badge counselor! Okay, I'm from an ethnicity that eats raw meat. (We try to be on good terms with the farmer and butcher so we know what we're grinding into some awesome entree`s.) But, yes, boys and food are a big concern. All it takes is one kid not washing his hands after coming from the latrine! Generally older boys have learned this so they make pretty good supervisors. They're eating the same food and care deeply about such things! But usually if it's one incident, and everyone heard about it, the older boys will make sure it doesn't happen again. So you should ask follow-up questions like when this happened and who knew and how did they change things. Often the story a boy brings home from camp omits the latter two details that would ease a parents mind!

We old folks like to play this "shades of grey" game. Don't let us do it. First of all, there's no such thing as "just a formality." Sorry nobody's told you that before, but now you know for future reference. Respectfully tell the committee, that for the sake of the boys you will either: 1. Wear the SM patch and do that job to the best of your ability. 2. Wear the ASM patch and help the SM do *his* job to the best of his ability. Finally, get the CC and COR on the line and tell them they are allowed to have qualms about you being an SM, in which case they need to offer the position to someone else. But, if they have no qualms, you'll need their full support, and you never want to be blindsided in a meeting like that again. You never want any committee to treat any adult that way. If something's in doubt, spell it out!

pro) Venturing young ladies love Cubs! They might not care about potential suitors in uniform, but the little ones in those dress blues have an overwhelming "cute factor!" FWIW - Crew parents can find the youth leadership method of venturers a little disorienting. Especially when they see me setting up my hammock and taking naps while the youth are out running program. (They catch on when its 11:30 PM and I start making rounds doing "last call" and accounting for everyone's location!) But the same dad who is "just observing" one moment, will be taking some kids out kayaking at my request the next. It's really a simple rule. We're hands off until we need to be hands on. It's that "need to be" bit that takes a little figuring! Folks like m2c need coaching and encouragement rather than pigeonholing and door closing. "I certainly do enjoy ... not having to sleep on the dirt on camping weekends." That just broke my heart.

It's a balance. If your boys want to plan a trip to a wilderness recreation area that will involve a few days of hiking, then for the sake of conditioning your program is dictated by the hike-a-month club. Given that hiking is best managed in small numbers, it might not be a bad idea to fit in something that helps the boys connect with other youth in the area and gives everyone a change of pace. But, each of us probably receives dozens of suggestions/flyers/e-mails a month. Which ones should you offer the boys? My approach is to offer them any that will fit into the leaders' schedules. Basically I give the line to the SPL "Here's a weekend when we're not hiking, fundraising, or doing a service project. Here's what I know is happening. Do you think any of this would interest you or the boys?" It's interesting to see what they will jump on, and what they'll pass on. Our boys like doing things on their own (or sometimes with the Crew or one other troop). They feel no obligation to attend council or district camporees. And, they'll pass on "ballpark" camping. (Note how in the other thread I said I was trying to get guys to camp after fall football games. Emphasis on "trying". Zero traction with the boys so far.)

I forgot about patch collections! Showed mine from way back around a picnic table, and that got the boys psyched! Power points sell to adults, patches to scouts. Not sure what sells to Venturers.

I'm sorry, but if someone is setting up a 3-D range for our boys in the Troop (or the co-eds in the Crew), it ain't gonna be no over-sized slug. It's gonna be the prey we find in the wild. And if even half the crowd is hunting age, we may set up a 2-D range with paper targets with images of animals. Never letting boys shoot effigies of people makes sense. There's a time and a place for that, but scouting isn't it. But animals ain't people. Cruelty is never teaching a youth what a kill shot is, how to make it at different angles, and what the chances are of success or failure. Humanity is teaching them what parts not to aim at and when not to take that shot. That way if they are in a survival situation (or just getting some extra on the table to help folks make ends meet), they will dispatch their prey quickly and not offend their Maker by inflicting unnecessary pain and suffering. I can understand the rules for a BSA range where folks from all walks of life are passing through on an hourly basis. But blanket admonitions just don't make sense.

If the folks in your area don't have that financial wiggle room, don't bother promoting "big ticket" items! But if they do ... Our troop has a bunch of travelers. Always had. Some parents valued that sort of thing, so their boys were going to go somewhere for the summer. Why not Jambo or an H/A base? This is a wild generalization, but these families sacrificed having nicer cars, larger property, or some other amenity that's pretty standard for others in our school district. I don't know how that cycle started, but it is maintained by youth coming back and sharing their experiences. Certainly with our crew, the second generation had none of that experience. But they saw the first generation's pictures of Seabase and heard of our wilderness backpacking trips, and that inspired them. On the other hand, no matter how much they hear about Jambo from other scouts, they aren't biting. But, the one thing they do that the first generation didn't is go to Area meetings. Go figure. I agree with -Fish. Bring back every bit of info from roundtable that you can. Post it somewhere. Get other parents to go to roundtables so they can get inspired. I also agree with BD. Focus on the youth training and the rest *may* follow. Invite the lodge chief to visit your troop. Plan an activity with a neighboring troop or crew. Get one or two boys to go to your OA conclave. Go to district events. Have an NYLT scholarship fund. The other stuff may follow. If it doesn't it's the least of your worries, really.

Not gonna lie to ya Fish. CM to ASM is not always an easy transition. Our last three who crossed over opted for committe member or commissioner. (Either directly or after trying out ASM.) Putting up with all of the youth-led set-ups is a challenge. But each of those guys added to the life of their troop. So no regrets. And on the outside chance that one of them was ASM material over the long haul, it aw worth giving them a chance. Dive in. Be yourself. Adapt. I'm sure you'll do a fine job.