qwazse

Hammocks. Wipes. Portable camp showers are possible, but set-up is time consuming. BTW, the young women in my crew disdain cabins. Even sailing, they prefer to sleep topside.

The SPL doesn't need to be defending tradition to parents. (Bully for him if he can.) He should be helping carry forward thos traditions. The SM should be laying out new ideas, and many of them will come from the parents. I take suggestions from adults constantly, I try to compile them so the officers in my crew can evaluate them and contact the adult about implementing them. For a driven adult I can see how this can come across as stonewalling, but it helps the youth maintain a say in their unit.

Thanks, SR I'm in! Both the troop and the crew would love this! I'll tell them I heard it from you first! (This message has been edited by Qwazse)

Now that you all have beaten this horse from three sides, I'll take a crack from my soapbox ... This is all about an unfounded reliance on EDGE. The SM believes that the only way to learn is I'd someone Explains something. This means Johnny new scout needs someone to do the explaining. In an attempt to be youth led the SM appoints his PLs to be explainers - among other things. Not just explainers of how to hike and camp safely, but how to sew patches! Not patches on tents or rucksacks, or torn jeans (because heaven help us you weren't wearing your uniform that day), but pricey patches on pricey shirts of seemingly delicate space age fabric! This is not the context in which you refer a loving mom to a PL, this is where you ask "was there something in the book that is unclear?" And then you offer, "maybe you and me and Johnny can look at an example together." Then you ask, "has Johnny ever tried to sew? This might be a good opportunity to show him how. It's fine if he only gets one or two patches done by next week. Because although we use a uniform method, it's just as important that he dig into that handbook and impress hid PL with some scoutcraft that interests him. After all THE BEST WAY to learn is by reading it for yourself first." If you want to teach independence, teach people how to leverage their references!!!!

Then you answered you own question, I think. Change must happen. But, you signing on isn't going to make it happen. Your vote of "no confidence" delivered as courteously as possible is the best chance for this troop to address basic issues first. Hold out for the next troubled unit to come along.

Instead of knots, you should get an app that scrolls them on your iPod, and velcro the iPod above your pocket! Then you could touch the knot and it would tell you what you did to earn it (while playing patriotic music in the background).

The question is not really what are you gonna do to fix it but whether this is indicative of what this troop interprets "boy-led" to be. Hard fact: boys do stupid stuff. (Like getting impatient and under-cooking meals.) They don't usually tap the resources at their disposal to avoid stupidity. ("Mr. SPL, are these eggs done enough?") Other hard fact: it doesn't kill them. Usually doesn't even make them sick. Piece of grace: usually someone notices (e.g. your friend's son) and won't let them live it down for the rest of their scouting career. This has a very strong preventative effect! That's why I try to encourage moms to keep up with the camping, even if it's one weekend a year. Just to address your very concerns, and to see how they grow in discipline as the years pass.

I review go/no-go decisions with youth on Thursday night, and we work toward a consensus. (For the venturers I print up the NWS forecast and the hourly weather graph and put it on the table with no explanation and say, "Interpret." Then we work through the implications.) Unless: 1. My drivers don't feel up for it. (E.g. old tires + fresh snow + hills.) 2. The ranger report is truly threatening. 3. Conditions are completely the opposite of what we've prepared anyone for. Any of the above and I'm cancelling grudgingly the hour before! SM and I did so last month (impending ice storm). Even then, I give a careful explanation to the youth in charge. And yes, I'm still second guessing a month afterword!

I'm usually in the position of insisting to a parent that lil' Johnny can't go because he did not qualify for x y or z! And this is one when parents are divided I take a long step back. If you're losing sleep, try not to wake the Missus! Bigger picture: his swimming ability is a problem. It must be overcome, because frankly, I don't see your troop backing off of aquatics anytime soon. When he comes back and you have a moment give him a "one of the things that everyone expects of a First Class scout is ..." lecture. If there's a seasoned instructor (scout or scouter) who works with tough cases, invite him over to your house to give the boy a few pointers. This doesn't have to be done right away, and it might not work instantly. But boy's gotta know this is important to you to know that he's prepared when all of AZ is back under water!

Thanks mom! Okay, given the gory details, MIB: Stipulate to the COR that you will take a leadership position when they replace the current CC. These folks have to understand that interviews are two-way mirrors! They often tell more about yourself than your candidate. For all intents and purposes, this means you won't be the SM or ASM anytime soon, but making your opinion clear may the wake-up call the troop needs to set it's compass true! The above sounds impolite, but you just felt the blindside. Just think if you agreed to that mish-mash position thinking "Oh well, I'll just have to figure out how to work around everybody." Sooner or later your actions would offend someone deeply. This way, if you do come into this troop in either position, you've laid the groundwork for what needs to change.

Scouts camping in a public area is nothing new. Saw some 1914(?) newsreel footage of some scouts clambering over a wall at a public venue (grass field and such). Lots of passers by watching. Pretty sure it wasn't backwoods. Yes, ball field camping should count. Yes, if that's all you do it's kind of pathetic, but if all you do is run off to the big woods and gnaw sassafras root with your venture patrol, that's kinda pathetic too. Variety is the spice of life. The point of getting into tent-camping IMHO, is to learn a little resourcefulness and not drain your wallet on lodging every time you travel. Teaching a boy to do that for a ball game may help him when he's older and married and has to visit friends' weddings but has not socked enough away yet to justify a hotel. (Oh, my poor wife!) nn -- if there is an trained adult from another troop willing to go, that's all you'll need to cover the tour permit.

I am FINE with my son going hungry because of say, not enough food (i.e. poor planning), but I am NOT fine with him getting food poisoning (i.e. poor supervision). Does that make sense? Sounds like we have a volunteer for cooking merit badge counselor! Okay, I'm from an ethnicity that eats raw meat. (We try to be on good terms with the farmer and butcher so we know what we're grinding into some awesome entree`s.) But, yes, boys and food are a big concern. All it takes is one kid not washing his hands after coming from the latrine! Generally older boys have learned this so they make pretty good supervisors. They're eating the same food and care deeply about such things! But usually if it's one incident, and everyone heard about it, the older boys will make sure it doesn't happen again. So you should ask follow-up questions like when this happened and who knew and how did they change things. Often the story a boy brings home from camp omits the latter two details that would ease a parents mind!

We old folks like to play this "shades of grey" game. Don't let us do it. First of all, there's no such thing as "just a formality." Sorry nobody's told you that before, but now you know for future reference. Respectfully tell the committee, that for the sake of the boys you will either: 1. Wear the SM patch and do that job to the best of your ability. 2. Wear the ASM patch and help the SM do *his* job to the best of his ability. Finally, get the CC and COR on the line and tell them they are allowed to have qualms about you being an SM, in which case they need to offer the position to someone else. But, if they have no qualms, you'll need their full support, and you never want to be blindsided in a meeting like that again. You never want any committee to treat any adult that way. If something's in doubt, spell it out!

pro) Venturing young ladies love Cubs! They might not care about potential suitors in uniform, but the little ones in those dress blues have an overwhelming "cute factor!" FWIW - Crew parents can find the youth leadership method of venturers a little disorienting. Especially when they see me setting up my hammock and taking naps while the youth are out running program. (They catch on when its 11:30 PM and I start making rounds doing "last call" and accounting for everyone's location!) But the same dad who is "just observing" one moment, will be taking some kids out kayaking at my request the next. It's really a simple rule. We're hands off until we need to be hands on. It's that "need to be" bit that takes a little figuring! Folks like m2c need coaching and encouragement rather than pigeonholing and door closing. "I certainly do enjoy ... not having to sleep on the dirt on camping weekends." That just broke my heart.

It's a balance. If your boys want to plan a trip to a wilderness recreation area that will involve a few days of hiking, then for the sake of conditioning your program is dictated by the hike-a-month club. Given that hiking is best managed in small numbers, it might not be a bad idea to fit in something that helps the boys connect with other youth in the area and gives everyone a change of pace. But, each of us probably receives dozens of suggestions/flyers/e-mails a month. Which ones should you offer the boys? My approach is to offer them any that will fit into the leaders' schedules. Basically I give the line to the SPL "Here's a weekend when we're not hiking, fundraising, or doing a service project. Here's what I know is happening. Do you think any of this would interest you or the boys?" It's interesting to see what they will jump on, and what they'll pass on. Our boys like doing things on their own (or sometimes with the Crew or one other troop). They feel no obligation to attend council or district camporees. And, they'll pass on "ballpark" camping. (Note how in the other thread I said I was trying to get guys to camp after fall football games. Emphasis on "trying". Zero traction with the boys so far.)

I forgot about patch collections! Showed mine from way back around a picnic table, and that got the boys psyched! Power points sell to adults, patches to scouts. Not sure what sells to Venturers.

I'm sorry, but if someone is setting up a 3-D range for our boys in the Troop (or the co-eds in the Crew), it ain't gonna be no over-sized slug. It's gonna be the prey we find in the wild. And if even half the crowd is hunting age, we may set up a 2-D range with paper targets with images of animals. Never letting boys shoot effigies of people makes sense. There's a time and a place for that, but scouting isn't it. But animals ain't people. Cruelty is never teaching a youth what a kill shot is, how to make it at different angles, and what the chances are of success or failure. Humanity is teaching them what parts not to aim at and when not to take that shot. That way if they are in a survival situation (or just getting some extra on the table to help folks make ends meet), they will dispatch their prey quickly and not offend their Maker by inflicting unnecessary pain and suffering. I can understand the rules for a BSA range where folks from all walks of life are passing through on an hourly basis. But blanket admonitions just don't make sense.

If the folks in your area don't have that financial wiggle room, don't bother promoting "big ticket" items! But if they do ... Our troop has a bunch of travelers. Always had. Some parents valued that sort of thing, so their boys were going to go somewhere for the summer. Why not Jambo or an H/A base? This is a wild generalization, but these families sacrificed having nicer cars, larger property, or some other amenity that's pretty standard for others in our school district. I don't know how that cycle started, but it is maintained by youth coming back and sharing their experiences. Certainly with our crew, the second generation had none of that experience. But they saw the first generation's pictures of Seabase and heard of our wilderness backpacking trips, and that inspired them. On the other hand, no matter how much they hear about Jambo from other scouts, they aren't biting. But, the one thing they do that the first generation didn't is go to Area meetings. Go figure. I agree with -Fish. Bring back every bit of info from roundtable that you can. Post it somewhere. Get other parents to go to roundtables so they can get inspired. I also agree with BD. Focus on the youth training and the rest *may* follow. Invite the lodge chief to visit your troop. Plan an activity with a neighboring troop or crew. Get one or two boys to go to your OA conclave. Go to district events. Have an NYLT scholarship fund. The other stuff may follow. If it doesn't it's the least of your worries, really.

Not gonna lie to ya Fish. CM to ASM is not always an easy transition. Our last three who crossed over opted for committe member or commissioner. (Either directly or after trying out ASM.) Putting up with all of the youth-led set-ups is a challenge. But each of those guys added to the life of their troop. So no regrets. And on the outside chance that one of them was ASM material over the long haul, it aw worth giving them a chance. Dive in. Be yourself. Adapt. I'm sure you'll do a fine job.

#5 - don't assign them to a job a youth should be doing like QM.... Agree in general. But if you have a QM with ADD or OCD, and an adult with some skills in logistics. The pairing might help transfer some skills the boy may need to manage his job and overcome other difficulties in life. Most boys don't know how to train a sales force, so if you have a new adult who is good at that maybe he can assist your popcorn kernel. Likewise, your boys may know how to treat for shock, but never having seen someone in it, can't play a victim very well. A medical professional may be able to act out that part for the boys in a first aid challenge, or coach the boy acting victim so everyone can "keep it real." Your chaplain's aid may be available to run a service, but may need a chaplain to help choose the material. In other words, you want ASMs in positions that complement -- not replace the boys.

I bet the ASM's went around the table and based their decision on what they knew of the scout, the body of water, and their ability to manage the situation. If things looked good on paper, but they had doubts, they wouldn't have given the clear. For example, there's no way I'd ask an adult (or other youth, for that matter) to spend the day in a boat with a kid who has recently shown profound lack of discipline. Until he corrects his track record, that boy stays home no matter how high he jumped from, how far he swam, and how long he floated. So if you as a parent think scout may have bigger problems, call the SM. But, if once he's in water he puts his head up and his feet down, and if when told something he listens, it's probably best for him to go.

I can see how this can play out: Cub-Parent #1 crosses over, gets up in the face of boys and adults about how disorderly meetings are. How things have to change or they will find another troop for jr. How, "boy led can't possibly mean what's happening here." SM or CC spend much of their time telling parent to chill. Cub-Parent #2: crosses over. Meek and teachable, ready to roll with the punches. But troop leader -- worn raw from the last experience -- decides to be preemptive, explain that boy-scouts is the next level up from cubs and the game changes, and maybe some time in the dugout will do the parent a world of good. Is it any wonder that the message comes across as "You don't know Jack for all your years in the B-league!"? I liked the way the troop CC explained it when my oldest crossed over. He had us sign up for summer camp and settle accounts for our boys individually in a separate room. Then he said "You understand if you come to camp, you won't be following your son from A to B to C like you did at Webelo's resident? You sit around talking to us adults. We stay away from the campfire until the boys are in bed. For meals you rotate as a guest at each patrol, not just your boy's. Your responsibility is to ask how the day is going. You eat what they cook without telling them how to cook it unless they ask for help. Except for your personal silverware, you don't help with the dishes. And, when the boys are off at program, there's really not much to do but sit by the edge of the lake and fish." "Let me get this straight, I have a week where someone cooks my meals and nobody expects me to do much except catch bass and panfish? Where's that dotted line?" I would like to think that he would have made the same offer if I were female, but even if he didn't, I liked his style and have since used it with both moms and dads. That is: less talk of position, more talk of tasks.

Are you even involved in Venturing? Your posts say no. You know, BP, it's that sort of ad hominem rhetoric that leads folks to peg you as unnecessarily argumentative. The mission statement should really come from the Venturers themselves My OP in this thread, next to last line: direct quote from such a person. who have been directly involved with a successful crew. Define successful: prodigious numbers of youth in the same unit, or a half dozen youth who manage have unique adventure for a few consecutive years before going their separate ways? Venturing is that point in scouting where we stop treating the teens as children and start treating them as the adults they are becoming. Good statement! So, is that a youth's quote? Or yours? Because if it's a youth's, I'll probably cite it. But if it's yours then, by your assertion, I wont be genuine if I use it.

$180 for two uniforms is too much. Well, cut out a cup of coffee. You mean I could have had six more months of coffee if it weren't for this uniform? Dang!

I have been trying to propose this to my youth for football season: pick a location near the field. Camp there after the game. Even invite scouts from the opposing team if you know them. Heck, invite girlfiends to stop by the campfire until lights out. Rack up camping nights. Have fun.