Oldscout448

I hear you, I struggle with the same thing here in Maryland. To the bean counters at national it is all about the numbers (read money) so the lodge is pushes to meet certain metrics that have nothing to do with leading the scouts in brotherhood cheerfulness or service. As others have noted the bar has been lowered to to point where is sometimes seems not to exist at all. I have seen troops with 80 percent wearing the arrow sash, not one of them seemed to understand what it stood for. Sad. I need to stop typing and get packing have a call out tonight for 30 Scouts. I go in the hope that five or six of them will understand and be true Arrowmen Oldscout

Yea the white sash a red arrow was a hard won honor. I get funny looks when I tell people I am prouder of my OA sash than my eagle badge. Any scout can earn 24 merit badges and do a project if he is willing to work at it. But when your fellow scouts called you an example of what they thought a scout should be...

Ah yes leaders of big lodges,fun aren't they? A story... Back in c '73 the lodge bigwigs seeing that some ceremonial teams had no/ junky costumes decided in their vast wisdom, that all chapters should pool their gear so everyone could share equally. We had held scrap drives,parked cars at the county fair,sold donuts for the money to buy hides, beads and feathers then spen many an hour crafting our own regalia. So you can just imagine how well this went over with us! We said So sorry not happening. Then things got nasty the police showed op with a warrant at the advisors house looking for the costumes, thankfully we had pulled all the ones we had made out the day before. All we left were the old beat up cloth ones that had been made 10-15 years earlier. The lodge boys were worth and sent our advisor a letter telling him that he was fired, and appointed some new guy we had never met. New guy (I forget his name) called a meeting to "settle the problem" not one of the youth showed up, and when called on the phone told the new guy to go pound sand. (Or words to that effect) Some how saner people intervened and the advisor was unfired and we all went back to doing what we loved. But it was about 8 years before any one from that chapter made vigil

well It's 2:00am and I just finished writing the call-out ceremony for the spring camporee, and its a good one if I do say so myself But it probably not be used you see it needs 7-8 people 4 speaking parts, two drummers, and two torchbearers. I'll be lucky if I can get 5 to show up and one of those is my son. This in a county with 250,000 people in it and over 40 troops. Is the Order shrinking across the nation or is it just my little district?

Dont know if this is the case or not but I have seem a few scouters sons act up in scouting much more that they do in other venues. Perhaps their thinking goes " you wont be too hard on me, Mr. Scoutmaster, my Dad is your buddy and your right hand man"

If I Recall Correctly In my troop the treasurer and the troop scribe met once a month. The treasurer showed the scribe how the accounts were set up ( a useful skill ) and the amounts in them so that the scribe could update his books and report to the plc. The big money like summer camp bypassed the scribe,but he was always the go-between guy for all the little amounts. The scribe was always one of the older scouts 15-17, and often the treasurers son. The QM had an adult "helper" as well. I try to let the scouts do everything they can, most of the time I am still surprised at how much that is

Like Eagle94 in my youth each patrol had such positions. Currently, I know of no troops that have them in my area. As noted before they were used to train the scouts in the needed skill sets in a small group setting before tossing them into the deep end as a troop level QM or Scribe. But the main reason was to force the entire patrol to pitch in and help. THe QM took care of the patrols tents, rope, cookware, etc. The scribe took attendance, collected dues, for buying said gear or just a fun patrol outing like pizza hut. IIRC it was 25 cents per week, thats about a dollar nowdays. We were expected to earn it ourselves, cut grass, shovel snow, deliver papers, whatever. The PL had to oversee the group and of course help, cajole, and train the newbies. I think the reason they fell into disuse is the decline of the patrol method. Of what use is a patrol QM if the patrol has no gear? or a grubmaster if all cooking is done on a troop level? or a scribe if the parents simply cut the troop a check every year? I freely admit it is simpler for the adults to watch over one troop than 3-6 different patrols, but it deprives the scouts of so many chances to learn. Old scout ps. it was amazing how careful the scouts were with their equipment when they had sweated for each dollar that bought it.

You are most welcome to our little group, some ( ok most ) of us have a few pet peeves, and a quirk or two, but that what makes it interesting.

The SM vs SPL to which I referred was about 15 years back. So the problem is not current. In a nutshell the SM was acting as the worlds oldest PL. he would come to the PLC meetings with copies of the next months meeting and camping schedules,and locations that he had decided on and hand them out. No input was asked or accepted from the scouts. He ran the troop meetings, forbid patrols to have meetings or activities on their own. The SPL was sacked because he kept insisting that running the troop was his job. wanna guess who the SM appointed as SPL?? Hint, they had the same last name. But there was a great deal of conflict at the next scouter meeting, Two ASMs, both eagles,with sons who were almost eagles, resigned. The CC sided with the SM saying as SM he had the power to hire and fire at will. The troop shrank to a handful of scouts, until the committee finally booted him out. That never sat well with me, I can see if there was some overriding safety issue, like the Spl bringing a bottle of booze or shooting off bottle rockets, on a campout. But not just because they disagree. I've never seen any clear cut data on this in any of the limited training I have done. So I guess i'm asking here Oldscout ps. Qwazse, just read your last post, good advice, I think I'll print that and thumbtack it over my desk.

Krampus made a comment about an SPL who was so bad at his job the PLC wanted to remove him after a few months. This gives me to wonder; Can a patrol "un" elect a PL who is not doing his job? Can a troop / PLC do the same to a SPL? Can a SM remove any scout from his troop office ? When and why should this be allowed / disallowed? I know of only one new SM, a my way or the highway type guy, who did this to a SPL who dared stand up to him and was "fired" on the spot. About 15 out of 40 scouts walked out of that troop that year. Mostly the older scouts. Should we hold to the position " You elected him so you will just have to live the results of your decision" We as scouters should allow scouts a chance to learn, to grow into the role. Looking back I know my first month or two as SPL was pretty bad. But at what point are we failing the other scouts by allowing one scout to make campouts a disaster, meetings boring, and scouting generally yucky for everyone under him? I am not talking about a scout who is struggling to do his job, I'm asking about t he scout who refuses to do the job, the one who just doesn't seem to care.

D From the proverbs of Mr Long?

Well I must say this current thread is much more civil than the old part, no name calling, no OMG, you must need professional help. For what it is worth, I still have guns, still practice, and would carry if I thought (not felt ) there was a need to protect tbe scouts

Any one remember 'Follow the rugged road" ads in the late '60s? Not sure if they were a national ad program or just a local one. Nor do I know if they had much impact on membership numbers, but they sure made me (at nine or ten)want to grab a canoe, some beans and bacon, and head for the backcountry rivers

Rat, thats why I am still active, trying to keep the fire burning, sometimes it feels like shoveling water upstream, but gotta do what I can. Oldscout. ps. I don't bother with patches, if I have not earned it, I don't want it

I have been in the Order since '75. I must sadly agree that it's a shadow of what it was. Mostly the scouters seem to be preoccupied with new member numbers, brotherhood percentages, and other metrics national seems to think are so so important. The scouters of my era at least the ones I remember worked at teaching us the meaning of all the fine sounding words in the Obligation. and set the example at living it out. They taught us that there was honor in serving. It did not matter if we got a medal, or a patch, or even a word of thanks, God knew that we had served, and we knew and that was all that truly mattered. We worked as camporee staff, parked cars at a scouts funeral, helped out new troops, dressed up as Blackfoot Indians and went to 25-30 cub packs a year to give out arrows of light. We made our own bonnets, war shirts, drums, etc. drove our own cars, paid for the gas, and never charged a dime. The OA was also a place where most of us were ASPLs SPLs or had been. So it was a place where one could freely ask for help and advice from those who truly " been there- done that"

With four boys, first aid came in handy on a weekly ( at least ) basis, but I am forced to go with rifle and shotgun shooting. When a rabid animal is near your pets and children.....

I talked this over with the wife last night, then stayed up till past midnight pondering, right now I just don't see how I can remain a part of Scouting past July 27. Not and look myself in the mirror every morning. If I think something is wrong how can I be part of a group that says it's right and still call my self an honest man? I suppose this means I will not be wearing a uniform at my youngest sons Eagle court in 4 weeks. Hell of a way to finish nearly a half century of scouting

A bit harsh there Eagle77? Not everyone has a 4' pool or easy access to one

Hmmmm I seem to remember having a one year old, putting an addition on the house on weekends, a job that required 45-55 hours a week, church on Sundays and Thursday nights, and being a den leader. Oh, we were also home schooling at the time. I could have done a better job with more time to prep, planned some den meetings on the drive home, but the cubs seemed to like it. So yes we non lds people also have crazy busy lives

Few Girl Scout troops go camping anymore. At least the ones in central Maryland. My mother was a GS leader for over 50 years, and the one thing that drove her to tears was the fact that the adult leaders flatly refused to " camp" anyplace that didn't have hot showers, beds, heat, and a/c. A number of girls went all the way through the program, earning their Gold Award (that's the gsa eagle) and aside from summer camps never spent one night under canvas. And uniforms?! I can take you to troop meetings of 20-30 girls, and no one is wearing what we would call a uniform. Including the adults. According to gsa regs if you are wearing the gsa pin then you are in uniform.

I wasn't trying to tell a story as much as set forth a clear example of actions ( or lack thereof ) having consequences. But Mr. Bob, if you want... Scout Only Child was taken aback, but took the proffered gear and sullenly trudged off to a spot about 50 yards off. We were camping in an open field so we could all watch him. The PL told his patrol not to stare, just keep on doing what you were doing before. I think he was hoping Only Child would swallow his pride and come back. but it was hard not to sneak a quick peek from time to time. Only Child got his tent up in about an hour and a half. Right after lunch he figured out he needed to cook his dinner, so he started gathering wood. I think the SPL followed him at a distance but I am not sure. The patrol ate about 5:30, he was still trying to light a fire. At 8:00 the Patrol having finished with dinner and clean-up, was snacking on the cracker barrel stuff, and telling stories, (some true!) around a blazing campfire. Only Child? Still trying to light his fire. The PL kept the fire high late into the night, even when the other scouts were in their sleeping bags. I was told the SPL and PL checked on him about 11:00 but I was sleeping by then. I dont think he ever ate dinner. Next morning we struck camp and headed home. When Only Child's Mother pulled into the church parking lot, he ran to her car. I never saw him again. I guess the SM and his Mom had a heart to heart, but I was only 12 or 13 at the time and didn't pay much attention to boring grown up stuff

Getting back to the OP, I can offer only a little advice, on the scout who wont listen to anyone but his parents, assuming said scout has no disability that would cause such a problem, this is someting that he is going to need to change. Has anyone talked to his parents? This would be the scouters job. Ask why, then ask when they plan to teach their son that sometimes he must listen to others? When he goes off to college? first job? first traffic ticket? Offer that scouts is a good place to learn such needed skills. Try to enlist their support rather than their opposition. A long time ago, in a troop far far away we had a scout who refused to do any work whatsoever, wouldnt help set up a tent, or carry water, or cook, or clean, just sat there and sulked. His Mom had made him join scouts she thought it would be good for him, an only child, to make friends and learn to do things for himself. On his second or third campout his patrol leader told him, in front of everyone, that in his patrol everyone did some work and if the scout wanted to be a part of the patrol he needed to help out. Scout refused. PL studied him for a while, and walked to the scouts tent, came back with the scouts gear, a spare tent, and the scouts share of the food. Dumping it at the scouts feet he said " then you areon your own, stay where we can see you, and if you change your mind let me know." Sometimes you just have to drop the hammer on some people. Life is not a free ride. Each case is different but you get the idea. On the swearing/cussing I can only repeat what others have said, It the leaders SM, ASM SPL, must set the example then and only then will their corrections carry any weight ! We had a scout who was raised in a home where the f- bomb was used twice every sentence, by everyone. To him it was just normal. When asked to refrain from using " colorful" words at a meeting, he asked why. He was told that he was wearing our scout shirt, with our troop number and we were being judged by others for his language. He seemed shocked, but he did try to keep his speech clean. at least when he was with the troop.

It was 40 years ago that I lost a fellow scout and friend to a lighting strike at Philmont. I was 16. Untill then death was something that only happened to old people, It was a cold slap in the face to find it could happen to anyone in the blink of an eye.. Prayers to his family, friends, and the ranger who was with them who is certain to be saying " If I had only...." over and over Oldscout

Well it seems the powers that be have dropped the charges stemming from one of the two times these children have been allowed to walk alone. the other one, where they were picked up about 150 yards from their house remains open. In an interview on WMAL the Mom said that they were tkinking of suing the city/county. And they ask me why I want to move to West Virginia! Oldscout

I havent been sent my card in the last three years. or is it four? and yes, I paid my dues on time. every time.