Oldscout448

You mean a Brotherhood of Scouting honor campers?  Who exemplify the Oath and Law in their daily lives? 

What a novel idea!  

(Sarcasm mode off)

I think there are three main ways to change the Order back to a highly esteemed organization .

One  change the election criteria. The main focus from the order to the troop should be " We want your best both in skills and character. " not " We accept anyone with a first class badge and one summer camp under his belt."

Two.  Make the Ordeal a real challenge.  Have elongomats who know what the tests represent  and can explain their importance  to the candidates.  .And if a candidate clearly refuses to abide by the rules, we need to have the ability to politely boot him out. ( Oy vey!  The stories I could tell)

Three.  We need to do more to help scouting than set up and tear down summer camps.  We need to: run local training for junior leaders,  help out troops who are dying, or just starting up, staff camporees,  offer some semi high adventure to the local troops (50 miler?) 

 In short we need to be more than a group with colorful flaps who main focus is electing and indicting the maximum number of new members so that we can say " Our numbers are increasing,  so everything is all right"  Is it? Is it really?

Oldscout.  (Mikemossin Wanachk)

Ps:  and you are quite right National doesn't have a clue.

A bunch of random guys wearing their personal regalia, with absolutely no official connection or mention of the OA, are planning to do a few AoL ceremonies at the request of the packs in our area.   

I suspect that the requests will dwindle to zero over the next few years, but that will be their decision not some edict from the royal court in Irving.

I'm dreading reading the " approved " call out script  but as a  ceremonies advisor I guess it goes with the job. 

Do you have a link to it?

Well that's a new one!  All these years and I didn't get a patch.  I think I'll go to my tepee and sulk for a minute or even two.

My chapter ( about 250 strong) has had two AAs as far back as I remember. One helps out with ceremonies, the other elections.  I don't know if it's an "real" postion or not, there are no position patches, or any official recognition.  

15 hours ago, SSScout said:

CO of course is produced, but most of a candle's production would be CO2, I think.  Canvas?  Yep, leaky tent.  Modern, waterproof bathtub bottom, zipped up ?  Not so good, unless it has a screened top and open rain fly above for ventilation.  I have awoken in the morning with icicles hanging from the top of my tent back when  I camped in such atmospheres.  I leave that to my adventurous Scouts now....

Teepee is good.   Haul wickiup behind pony.  Washte...   

Urban BBQ ?  Noon ?  Friday ? 

BBQ?  Yum!  Where?  

49 minutes ago, SSScout said:

Combustion in a closed tent?   Have we forgotten our chem 101?   

Yes, the flame is a hazard worth remembering and avoiding, but I might worry more about the collection of CO2 in the confined space.   

Not to nitpick old friend,  but it's CO (carbonmonoxide) that is the poisonous  hazard.  I do remember a little of chem 101.  Canvas tents are permeable  and the gaps in the doors are more than sufficient to let in enough fresh air for a candle or two.  If there is wet snow stuck on the tent then yes it might be a problem.  

As to the tepee I could go on at some length about proper set up, liners, smoke flaps, etc. But I suspect you already know everything that I do.   

I suppose since the old curmudgeons like me won't be around anymore to show the newbies how to do what the plains Indian tribes did safely for centuries  it is perhaps best that they stick to their newfangled LEDs. Sigh. 

Go n-eirghidh an bothar libh, a chairde 

Back in the days of canvas tents the rule was " no open flames in tents.  So we lighted our candle lanterns outside our tents, closed the tiny door and took them inside.   One warmed our tents up about 10 degrees on a calm night, half of that if the wind was blowing.   UCO also makes small lightweight reflectors that help greatly.   I've been doing it for over 40 years now with nary a problem.  Mind you there is no way I am going to risk it in a small nylon tent.  If I were camping tonight when the windchill  going to be 5 or 10 below zero, I would have two or three going until I was ready to go to sleep.  Better yet I would be in a 16 foot tepee with a small fire in the center.  I would be happy to trade a hour or two of lost sleep while fire tending to gain 50 degrees.  

And at the risk of calling down the wrath of all the "by the book " scouters, I really dont care a plugged nickle what the lawyer inspired, monumentally stupid GSS says anymore. I have spent over a thousand nights under canvas or the stars.  I'm not an idiot.  I'll be safe and warm and dry.

  And if one of the scouts is freezing cold at 3am there is a tent where he can warm up for a while while I go look at the stars or start a campfire and put the old coffee pot on. Or if I have the tepee I'll make the coffee / Swiss miss right there and I'll wake up another Scouter or perhaps the scout has a friend who also has chattering teeth and wouldn't mind a mug or two.

Oldscout

Jabberwocky

From a troop  (number now sadly forgotton) in Corning, NY. circa 1935.

One Fine Day in the middle of the night,two dead boys got up to fight

Back-to-back they faced each other, drew their swords and shot each other.

The deaf policeman heard the noise, and came and killed the two dead boys.

If you don't believe my tale is true, ask the blind man he saw it too.

Devote,

  SSScout and sst3rd are wise old birds who have truly " been there and done that" many times over.  

  In my not so humble opinion, they give very sound advice here.

  I cannot help but wonder what is he trying to hide by not allowing the background check.   Major red flag right there.

Oldscout

I spent about two hours watching today as one vid after the other popped up.  I was forced to revise my opinion several times.   As I see it now  ( and this may change)  

1  There were some teens from a all male Catholic school waiting for their bus near the Lincoln Memorial.

2  A small group of male adults calling themselves " the tribe of Israel"  started calling the teens names.   As this is a BSA forum I can't type them all here.   Dirty, cracker, inbred, sons of Klansmen, were some of the politest ones.   ( Disclaimer here, I have actually met some of this crazed bunch in DC before.  they  loudly informed me that I was a white blue eyed devil, a spawn of Cain, destined for hellfire.  Not some one I want to have a drink with, btw they think they are jews although they seem to mostly from Jamaica   Lost tribes maybe?)

3 The boys started some high school cheers in rebuttal.  Then Philips moved in between the two groups singing and drumming.  He later said he wished to defuse the situation.

4 Philips moved right up to the teens (in the hope they would back up?)  but the boys stayed put. The one closest to him just smiled.  (My guess is he had no idea what he was supposed to do) Philips continued drumming and singing face to face for several minutes.  Some of the boys seemed to be trying to sing along for a few seconds.    Others started up another high school cheer.  

5 Philips ended his song,  one of the "tribe of Israel"  started in again warning one black student that his fellow classmates would kill him for his organs.  The boys responded with laughter rather than anger 

34 minutes ago, David CO said:

 

This looks to me like creative video editing by liberal journalists. They deliberately left out the beginning where Philips approached the boys (in order to make it look like Philips was an innocent victim of unruly Trump supporters).

 

David, you and I have often disagreed in the past but in this I think you are absolutely spot on.   There are a number of different vids of this on line. Some 20 minutes long some only 2 or 3.  If you piece them together there is over 30 minutes of coverage.     We all need to see as much of the entire picture as possible before passing judgement.

I had thought that I had met the ultimate in control freak scoutmasters about 20 years ago, but I think that yours just won that  very dubious honor.Hands down.

There are identical character traits however.  OCD may be playing a part. Grammer? He wants to spec the screw head design? The kind of chips? Note that he passed the responsibilities of these demands to the retired scoutmaster and the eagle board. But by far the most telling is his  statement  of " This is how I do it, and you have to have MY signature- and I'M  not signing"    

Houston, we have a problem !

And it's that the SM is not only not helping his scouts, he is actively hindering them.

I cannot help but wonder how many Scouts before your son have given up in frustration  or disgust on ever ever getting their Eagle.

My .02 cents?   Go to the distrust advancement chair and the DE. If that yields no quick results go to Council.  Bullying little tin gods have no business being scoutmasters. 

Like many of us who post here I'm just a lowly volunteer.  I work mostly with the OA at the chapter level where about a dozen troops make up 90% of its active members.  As far as I have been able to ascertain none of those Scout participated in the survey. In fact they were totally unaware that  the survey even existed. I learned about it only from this forum.  I heard nothing from my district, nothing from my Council, nothing from my lodge. Nary a word could I find pertaining to it on the many pages of the council website.

So please excuse me if I am also a bit of a Skeptic.

15 hours ago, shortridge said:

If you feel you can speak for them - why did they feel this way? Why do they see a girls’ troop as an issue to overcome? What impact did they see a girls’ troop having on their Scouting experience?

Not knowing Monkeytamers son I cannot speak for him or his friends. 

   But more than a few older scouts that I do know are also planning on leaving or have already departed.   It does not seem that it is so much an issue with girls troops as much as the boys feel that the troop belongs to them.    they have spent a third of their life in it after all.  They deeply resent National changing its membership, its focus, its very name.   They have no voice, no platform, so they vote with the only means left to them. Their feet.

Ok here goes, the ceremony we did about five times a year. Remember back then you bridged individually at your 11th birthday.

The troop is called to attention, the boy joining The Troop is called up onto the stage at one end of the room by the senior patrol leader. He asks if it is truly his wish to become a member of troop 448. Upon receiving an affirmative reply he turns to Patrick. " Pat as the scout who has been in this troop the longest, will you induct this new scout into our troop?"

Pat steps up onto the stage (in full dress uniform medals, sash, the whole nine yards) strikes a match and lights a candle in a single holder saying " I light this candle which represents the Spirit of Scouting (room lights go out at this point) With it I will light these three  red ' candles representing the three parts of the Scout Oath, and these twelve white candles which represent the points of the Scout Law"

" Raise your hand in the scout sign (Pat raises his hand here) and repeat after me."

"A scout is Trustworthy" (lights the first white candle)

"A scout is Trustworthy" echos the new scout.

From off stage a deep voice speaks

" a Scouts Honor is to be trusted. If he were to violate his honor by telling a lie or by cheating or by not doing exactly a given task, when trust it upon his honor, he may be directed to hand over his Scout badge.

A scout is loyal. ( lights the second candle. )

He is loyal to whom all loyalty is due, is scout leader, is home and parents and Country.

A scout is helpful.

He must be prepared at any time to save life, help injured persons, and cheer the home duties. He must do at least one good turn to somebody everyday.

A scout is friendly.

He is a friend to all and her brother to every other Scout.

A scout is courteous.

He is play to all, especially to women, children, old people, and the weak and helpless. He must not take pay for being helpful or courteous.

A scout is kind.

He's a friend to animals. He will not kill nor hurt any living creature needlessly, but will strive to save and protect all harmless life.

A scout is Obedient 

He obeys his parents, scoutmaster, patrol leader, and all other duly constituted authorities.

A scout is Cheerful

He smiles whenever he can, is obedience to orders is prompt and cheery. He never shirks nor grumbles at hardships.

A scout is Thrifty 

He does not wantonly destroy property. He works faithfully, wastes nothing, and makes the best use of his opportunities. He saves his money so that he may pay his own way, be generous to those in need, and helpful to worthy objects. He may work for pay, but must not receive tips for courtesies or good turns.

A scout is Brave

He has the courage to face danger in spite of fear and to stand up for the right against the coaxing of friends or the jeers or threats of enemies, and defeat does not down him.

A scout is Clean 

He keeps clean and body and thought; stands for clean speech, clean sport, clean habits; and travels with a clean crowd.

A scout is Reverent ( lights the last white candle )

He is reverent towards God. He is faithful in his religious duties and respect the convictions of others in matters of custom and religion.

Pat now tells the new scout " Now we will recite the Scout Oath together" and starts off " On my honor..." lighting the red candles as they go. But  Pat gets quieter and quieter until at the end the scout speaking alone.

" although I put out this candle which represents the spirit of scouting is  (Pat blows it out here) it will now live on in this scout until it is lighted again at our next investiture ceremony.

Lights go back on, and every one shakes the hand if the newest member of the troop.  Left handed of course.

The majority of troops had some sort of investiture ceremony in the "old days".  There was even an illustration of one in the handbook.  Sadly almost no one maintains that tradition.  

The most common used candles set in a log. 12 for the points of the scout law, 3 for the parts of the Oath, ( duty to God, duty to others, duty to self) and 1 to represent the Sprit of scouting. In my troop it was done by the oldest scout in the troop regardless of rank. In other troops it was performed by the SM. 

I still have the whole script in my memory banks. Let me know if you want it 

Oh, no offense taken. I admit I liked the older badge better.  In fact I got one at a patch auction in "78 for $13.25. Just to have a complete set of the "old" ranks.

First round is still on me.

" Chicken in a mess kit" !?

That's MY badge you are talking about,  old friend.  The one that took 24 Merit badges. Still I just had to laugh.  Never heard THAT one before.

Now I need to go look at my camping MB. 

Yep, I remember.  I had to earn first class the old way Morse code included.  Took about two years in my triip as a rule.  Im still very proud of my rectangular rank badge. As a den leader I took my cubs on short hikes and on a whim showed them some of the old trail signs we used to use. The ones using rocks, sticks, or even grass.  

They were just ecstatic , Super secret woodsy Scout signs!  Yay!

The lesson seemed simple. Give them what they want. So I started teaching more Woodcraft, edible plants, animal tracks, stars, tree identification they loved it. Crafts were reserved for cold rainy days.

I have two sons who are both engineers and Eagles. They think the stem program is the dumbest thing scouting has ever done. But then they weren't Scouts in 73.

just a thought,  some people have an aversion to touching nasty, icky, gross stuff.   Do you guys use gloves when you wash the dishes?

 I don't think anyone ever starved to death by missing three meals.       I am not sure it's anywhere in GTSS

This is the kind of thing that kills patrols.  It's not  fair and they all know it.   Eventually some scout has his fill of carrying this loafer/snowflake and quits, which just increases the load on everyone else.  So they start quitting.   Or he just snaps and gives the nonworking lad a literal kick in the butt, or hits him over the head with a dirty sauce pan.   Which pretty much ends his scouting journey in that troop.   

I think if I were his PL I might announce that next campout everyone in the patrol  brings his own food and cooks and cleans his own mess kit.   

If Dad is not an ASM, why is he going on campouts?     

He who will not work neither shall he eat.  II Thes 3:10

it worked in my troop back in the day.     A less harsh version might be no s'mores or cider on Saturday night.

Was the shooter even a scout?    It only says " another child" 

34 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I was one of those Scouts who got elected on the third go around. First year I was eligible, I didn't even vote for myself because the three others eligible were much better choices AND I COULD ONLY PICK TWO (emphasis).

I am saddened that my Oldest, who has been eligible for 3 years now has declined to put his name on the ballot because he has no interest in the OA now. This from the kid who helped me build the chapter's drum stand before he was a Cub.  And my middle son, who became eligible this year, also declined to put his name on the ballot.

 

Some Arrowmen do care, and are disgusted at some of the things allowed. But I was told National has PROHIBITED lodges from ejecting anyone from the Ordeals. Notching arrows and/or ejecting folks is considered hazing, and not allowed. Once a person is a candidate, only the candidate can remove themselves from the Ordeal, not the lodge.

We had an incident where an adult candidate was talking up a storm, complaining about all the work that he was being forced to do. I was all for sending him home when the lodge adviser told me that is no longer an option because national considers it "hazing." All we could do was separate him from the rest of the candidates so his negativity would not affect them. Irony was one of the "Friends" working with the candidates was on medical restrictions, and was pushing the envelope to set a good example.

Wow  just wow.  In a case like this I would " haze" him in a heartbeat.    Or perhaps separate him by a few miles,  and "forget" to pick him back up until after the ceremony was over.