Oldscout448

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Don't get me started.

Ok I admit, I used a cheat sheet of some sort for ceremonies with names involved, specifically Arrow of Light, AOL, and Call Out Ceremonies. I've used  scroll, hidden list on a fan, or my favorite arrows with names on them from a quiver. But Pre Ordeal, Ordeal, and Brotherhood Ceremonies were memorized. I was at one lodge's Ordeal, and they had candlelit podium for the principles to read their lines from. Another Lodge had the four principles, but only 3 spoke, reading their lines.

As for candidates violating restrictions, I was furious that we had to separate an adult candidate from the rest of the candidate group, and allow him to complete the Ordeal  despite him constantly talking and complaining.  But the worse was the group of 10-15 candidates who said they had enough cheerful service and basically sat down and refused to do work that rest of the afternoon. I was glad I had to leave the Ordeal weekend early and found out about that event after the fact.

I hear you brother, I'm constantly telling my team but if I can memorize all four parts for all three of the usual ceremonies plus the vigil they can memorize at least one.

I remember well how horrified I was to see a pre ordeal ceremony read, and read badly, by flashlight! 

It helps a lot if the older scouts have their parts down cold and "encourage " the younger scouts to up their game if they want to play on our team.

I am puzzled as to why the sitting candidates were allowed to go thru the ordeal ceremony.  If we had such a situation I very much doubt the team would perform with them in our ring.

37 minutes ago, desertrat77 said:

@Oldscout448, your endeavors are absolutely in keeping with the traditions of the Order, and as long as an ember is there, I too would keep fanning the flame.

However, there are parts of scouting where there is nary a spark.  It's painful to see these lodges--when you do see them.   It's difficult to see them represent our Order, because they perform no service, keep no traditions, and draw no respect from scouts.

Don't know what to say in cases like that. If there are truly no traditions and more importantly no service then in my opinion (and Allowats) they do not deserve to wear the arrow. I guess folding the teepee up and riding into the sunset might just be your only option.  

Do we raise a glass to the old days or just sit down and weep?

The fire may indeed be dying down, but it won't be my hand that puts it out.  We are still fighting to keep it going here. Last weekend we did a full blown tapout ceremony for one ( yes just one) scout who's crew had their election too late for the spring callout and ordeal.  It was about 4 hours of work for 6 arrowmen to make it all happen.  But they did it cheerfully. i suspect National wouldn't approve of our little ceremony,  but we are way beyond caring or asking for permission at this juncture.   The scouts have this deep seated conviction that the order belongs to THEM.  (especially the 20 year old vigils)  Not some faceless bureaucrats in Irving Texas.

I mean  absolutely no disrespect,  I know you guys loved the Order as much as I did and that's saying something.  

I can read the writing on the wall, but I guess I'm just a stubborn old Irishman who's too thick to quit.

Oldscout   (Mikemossin Wunachk )

On 10/10/2019 at 1:48 PM, MikeS72 said:

 

I am in Tipisa Lodge, Central Florida Council, by the way, and celebrated the 50th anniversary of my Ordeal ceremony while at summer camp this year.

Good to have an older brother on the forum!  I celebrated my 45th anniversary last weekend.   I expected to be at our fall ordeal, but it was moved to a later date. (See the 6 month thread)  I hope to live long enough to get to the 50 year mark too, but at this point, I'm not certain that the Order will.

18 hours ago, Jameson76 said:

Pretty sure we know the answers.  Surveys are taken to justify and support decisions already made

Sadly true 

I got it in 1970

My expert patch goes on the temporary pocket, the RSO patch is on my blaze orange  hat that I only wear at the range. 

Getting back to the original topic, it seems I was quite wrong . I was fairly certain that the 10 months to 6 months change would have little or no impact.  Whoops!  I had failed to consider that they might actually change to date of the fall ordeal from the first or second weekend in October, where it has been for decades,  to the first weekend in November.  So that the spring and fall Ordeals are exactly 6 months apart.  

So if we hold the Brotherhood ceremony at 12:01am Sunday morning, the arrowmen who went through their ordeal last spring can attend.

Clearly a crafty and clever idea. But I'm not sure how I feel about it just yet.

I'm all for scouts continuing on in the order, but is going from 12 to 15  ( or even 20) new brotherhood members worth the enormous drain this will be on the ceremonies team?

They rarely get more than 6.hours sleep on Fri night,  now they  would  get even less on Saturday night.

But the big deal on my eyes, is the fact that  November 'weather is a whole lot different from October weather.  And we have gone on at length on this forum about how most younger scouts no longer  have the skills to "rough it" anymore.  It is not unreasonable to expect a greater number of ordeal candidates  sleeping in dining halls or bunkhouses.   Thus cheapening (no that's not the right word ) lessening  the symbolism and the probable effect of their ordeal experience. 

And for what?    A few more brotherhood members a bit faster?

Is the OA  about providing a scout with the most meaningful, hopefully life changing Ordeal possible? 

Or is it now about the numbers?

On 9/3/2019 at 3:36 PM, Double Eagle said:

Nobody grades any singing voice...so let it rip.  Don't blame me for my voice, god gave it to me.  They spirit of the song is much more important than getting every word right, even pronunciation of WWW with the oath.  This shouldn't be a problem within any lodge.  For anyone pointing fingers, ask them to recite any ceremony word for word.  This scout would a great elangomat for others with a situation like his.  Arrowmen come in every type and no mold. and no OA police please.

I have a few guys who would take that challenge.  Any part, any ceremony.    

That said, they would never ever want to hold anyone back if he truly could not memorize the song or the obligation.   We had a similar situation a few years ago, and the only thing we required was the admonition and its meaning.   The rest is just window dressing.  Nice but not essential.

Well done Brother! 

Ah yes,  I had failed to consider that he might be one the "special " people.  Perhaps he deserves a special ceremony.   Anyone else remember the Iroquois gauntlet?

Out of respect to the guide to Safe scouting, we could forgo the rocks and tomahawks and just throw rotten squash and pumpkins and tomatoes.

52 minutes ago, my_three_sons said:

We had 3 scout eligible this spring and two were elected then a short time before the Call Out ceremony out Chapter adult leader call to tell me that he could put the third scout in since he can put in deserving scouts that don't get elected.  

No he most certainly can not.

In addition to the ceremony, a few of us decided to keep a fire burning throughout the night in memory of all the brothers of the Vigil honor we lost in the last year.  I sat and  kept watch from 1:00-3:00am. Many of my brothers walked past and placed a stick or two into the flames. There was some flute playing by one brother. Another drummed and sang.  Some talked softly to each other, remembering those they had loved and lost.  Just before dawn we used a flame from the  watch fire to light the "other" one.  My Vigil brothers will understand.

Probably the most moving  "ceremony " I have ever seen

it was a privilege and an honor to be a part of it.

On 8/13/2019 at 10:48 AM, Cptsandt said:

I agree completely with you. I don’t know how much more it would expose the legend with today’s internet and social media use. I think the look cool on the back of the sash so in a month or so I am going to go rouge and sew one on. Maybe the OA patch police won’t arrest me 

Let us know if you need bail money,  or a cobbler with a file inside.

They do make a "ghost patch" it's all in white and very hard to see from over 10 feet away.

The idea is to harden the entry or entries to the classroom to the point where a shooter would be unable to shoot the locking mechanism off the door and begin slaughtering the students.  Who are presumably cowering under their desks.

It's not difficult to make deadbolts that can only be placed in locking mode with a key, and can be unlocked without one.  

In an active shooter situation the teacher has to shut and lock the door anyway so he can turn the key and slam the bolt home, then get out of the line of fire.

A pair of wedges aren't as strong, but far  far better than nothing assuming that the door opens into the classroom.

Better yet harden the entrance to the entire school.  Although the Parklawn shooter reportedly entered through an open door during a fire drill.

When my daughter was teaching in a middle school just outside of Baltimore,  I offered to deadbolt the  classroom door top and bottom,   or failing that build and install a new door with hidden kevlar panels.   All for free.    Nope, not allowed.   Might cause the students to feel unsafe or worry that there might be bad people with guns in the world.   It seems that in the mind of the admins, a false sense of safety is more important than actually providing it.  This reasoning seems completely insane to me.  This was (and sadly still is) a part of town where drugs are everywhere and gunfire can be heard almost every night.   The students are not stupid, they know full well that anyone living there isn't safe.  But don't point this out to the school board lest they be shocked and horrified.

just passin by,  Oldscout

Matt, I am not sure I can agree with you here.  The Order is about serving on that all agree.  But it should be first in your own patrol, troop,district.  Then council. 

What I have seen is the lodge having weekend after weekend putting tents up at the council camp, taking tents down at the council camp, building a new stage at the council camp, spreading much, shoveling gravel, clearing downed trees  all at the council cubscout camp.  Is there any weekend ( or even a hour or two) devoted to how to be a better patrol leader?  SPL? QM?   Den chief?  Troop guide?

Nope.  Nothing.

A long time ago some of our local chapters had a group of older scouts, mostly eagles,who would go camping with brand new troops showing them how to stay warm dry and well fed in the woods.  The new Scoutmasters just loved it and it made quite an impression on the new scouts as well.   Sadly that type of group no longer exists.

A number of scouts and scoutmasters have bluntly asked  seeing as they don't attend the council summer camp, what direct benefit the OA is to their troop.  I wish I had a better ( read more local) answer. 

I don't perceive this change from 10 months to 6 months as having much impact.  Around here the Brotherhood  ceremony is  only offered at Ordeals. The big one is in the spring, the fall ordeal is 5 months later. So 75% of our new members still have to wait a full year.

I suppose there will be a slight uptick in the brotherhood conversation numbers nationally,  So on paper things look better, but at the local level?  Little and less.

The other change seems good  in my eyes, some lodges are on life support, and having the section giving them a helping hand seems to be no bad thing.  Although I suspect many sections were already doing all they could.

22 hours ago, mrkstvns said:

I bet a lot of scouts look back on that camp with fond memories and good stories to tell the younger scouts.  A challenge makes the event worthwhile...

My bet would be that the scouts look back on those night hikes and say      " That's gotta be the stupidest thing we have ever done at any summer camp "

1 hour ago, mrkstvns said:

Most of the summer camps I've visited in this region do have buildings that would be appropriate shelters in the event of lightning.  The dining hall is typically the best choice because of its size.  Rest rooms that have plumbing and/or wiring are good options. Some camps have stables, boat houses or other facilities that would provide safe shelter.

Few summer camps these days are truly rustic.

You have a valid point there, almost all of the summer camps around here do indeed have permanent structures.  

But as I read the rules, in the case of a 10pm thunderstorm, we are required to get the scouts up,dressed,  then march them 400 yards to the mess hall (that was the distance at last years camp) in the pouring rain.  Then back to camp in an hour or two.  Then quite probably repeat the process in another hour.

I lost a good friend to a wayward lighting bolt at Philmont years ago.  I've been 50 yards from a massive ground strike,  the resulting shockwave knocked me right off my feet. My ears rang for an hour.  Believe me I have a huge respect for these sparks of Thor.  

But I wonder if we all  would not be safer from the slings and arrows of outrageous lawsuits if we just sent the scouters camping and had the scouts follow on Skype from the safety of their basements at home.

[Sarcasm off]

Here is the bottom line, when rules or laws appear to be arbitrary and capricious to those who are told to follow them, they begin to hold those rules in contempt and disregard them. And by association eventually those who make or enforce such rules are soon held in the same contempt.  Which invariably leads to a clash of egos between the rulers and subjects. especially among young adults who believe they know everything.   The result is either rebellion be it  covert or open, or the subjects simply leave if they can to seek better prospects elsewhere. 

I've been a lifeguard, a RSO,  I've been the guy who has pulled the plug on scouting events when conditions got too dangerous. My worst nightmare has always been having to call a parent who trusted me to keep their son or daughter safe and tell them I somehow failed.  This fear has kept me up into the wee  hours keeping an eye on things on more campouts than I can now remember.

But if we in scouting  are letting the lawyers make every safety judgement on everything,  we may as well fold our tents and flags and go home.

Got a call from an ASM that I have known for many years.  It seems that her troop was camping last weekend with a group of Weebs from their feeder pack.  Everything was going fine untill just before dinner, a Gourmet affair cooked by the scouts in Dutch ovens, was just about about ready. Then one of the cub parents heard a distant rumble of thunder.

All of the Webelos and their parents scurried for their cars, and they all piled in.  They announced that according to the Guide they were required to stay in the cars or a building until half an hour after the last rumble of thunder was heard.  When told that that would probably not be for two or three hours even though the storm seemed to be passing about 15-20 miles to the north, they remained  adamant about following the rules.

Dinner, dessert, cleanup, and the campfire program, would just have to be postponed until 8:00 or 9:00pm or whenever. 

The SM managed to find a large pavilion that wasn't being used, and the troop transported all the food up there. So dinner although quite cold was only 45 minutes late instead of two hours.  Then the scouts took the dishes back down to the campsite for cleanup.

Now I understand taking shelter in adverse conditions. A couple of million volts with several million amps is nothing to take lightly. More than once I've seen close up what that kind of power can do.

But this is Maryland. We have thunderstorms near or far every third night all through June, July, and August. As well as quite a few in May and September. Some of them have multiple cells so you can hear the thunder rumble and grumble all night long.

As my ASM friend said  " I just wonder what on earth they will do at summer camp"

22 minutes ago, TMSM said:

OldScout448 - You are in the wrong troop. If this is the only troop available you need to step in and move them back to the patrol method.

Alas, it's not just one troop, it's every troop in the district. I will go further: its the movement.  Driven by the damned " stop any activities that have any possibility however remote, of resulting in a lawsuit" mentality that seems to have swept the nation.

It's hard to blame National in all honesty,   when you are bleeding millions in payouts and legal fees, you just have to do something to stop it.

I am just not ok with turning Boyscouts into Webelos III, IV, and V.  

Been sitting here a mite over 7 years now,   lots of different folks have come and gone, but seems to me the talk around this campfire has changed quite a lot.  It figures I guess since Boy Scouts has changed so much as well.  I came home from a campout recently and realized there wasn't one thing that still remained from the days when I was a scout.  

No patrol flags or sites,  no patrols at all really, (they exist just on paper) no scout leadership (the adults do that now),  no axes, or saws needed. the adults cut everything up with chainsaws last weekend.   No interpatrol competition.  

Almost as many parents and siblings as scouts.  Oh right "Family Scouting"  whatever THAT is...

But the biggest difference is that scouting used to be billed as an adventure.   An exciting way to grow up. Scouts  went hiking, camping, exploring on their own. That's WHY we studied woodcraft so intently.  So the SM could trust us to not get lost, build a fire in the rain, not cut ourselves with a knife, cook a meal, stay out of the poison ivy, etc.  It wasn't for the badges. They were  merely the recognition of what we had learned NOT the underlying motivation.  Now it's just " one and done" and you get the badge. No real testing allowed. 

 it seems as this Scouts BSA thing is totally different from my experiences or preferences, that I have very little to add to the conversation here.  So heartfelt thanks to the many who I'll  never meet, for all the coffee, s'mores, and sage advice over the years.    

{ Hoists old faded yucca pack, picks up maple hiking stick}

The woods and rivers are still calling,  i just might find another adventure or two out there.

OldScout 448

A highly respected brother in our lodge passed away recently after 6 decades of continuous service mentoring ceremony teams.  There is talk of honouring his memory with a broken arrow ceremony,  but I have zero experience with such.

Anyone here ever done/ seen one?

What was it like?

59 minutes ago, Treflienne said:

. . . and come September, we will remember our camping days and friendships true . . .

. . . and as the years go by,  I'll think of you and sigh . . .

. . . we've made a promise to always keep, and we'll pray "softly falls" before we sleep. We'll be girl scouts together and when we're gone . . .

Darn onions,

Where is this from?