Oldscout448

I'm afraid I can't help much. I wanted to get this back in the day and was very active in my parish. But the good Father would only sign off on the application if you were an alter boy for two full years. In addition to all the other requirements. 

What with Boyscouts, explorers, OA, and a rifle team, I just couldn't devote a Sunday every three weeks for two years.

On 4/13/2019 at 7:58 PM, fred8033 said:

I'm not sure how much news this is.  Our many years of Cub Scout camps were very much family camp.  Some families had both parents there. 

Family camp may be just a re branding that the scouting program so desperately needs.  

ANOTHER rebranding?  

 WWW means work, work, work!  Lol

When I joined the ceremonies team I was told "  If you think you worked hard a a candidate,  you ain't seen nothin yet"  I thought it had to be an exaggeration. I soon found out otherwise, but the OA was the highlight of my scouting life.  Even more inspiring than watching the sunrise while standing on the Tooth of Time. I too still keep the Vigil.

We seen to have gone far afield from the OP here.  Sorry W.M. passions run a bit high for a lot of us.  

40 minutes ago, sst3rd said:

WisconsinMomma,

 

First, your son should not have been nominated to be a candidate in the order, without his knowledge.

Second, his scoutmaster (or other appropriate OA adult) should have talked with him in a scoutmaster's conference about the OA, and it's responsibilities in advance of an election.

Third, your son should have had the opportunity to talk it over with his parent(s) in making this decision before the election and turn down the nomination if he chose.

Fourth, an OA Election Team should have held the election and answered any questions from any of the attending scouts (members or not), before the actual election.

Personal note: I'm no longer involved, as I was the long time (couldn't get anybody else to step up) chapter ceremonial team advisor, and all ceremonies (AOL, Crossovers, and Call-Outs)

        no longer exist and/or have had the native American culture removed. Brotherhood, cheerfulness, and service, have always been important to me as a scout before the OA. It was just

        magnified when I was chosen to be apart of what was an honorable program. It is now just a service group. Nothing special. I continue my service to scouting as a committee member

        for a venture unit, and working on  a maintenance committee at one of our council camps. Yes, we have fun. Scouting is simply becoming a family camping club. Nothing more. Every-

        body can come and participate.

Softly falls the light of day...the vigil fire has gone out.

sst3rd

Not quite yet it aint.  At least not everywhere.   I aim to keep feeding it as long as I can find sticks.  

Is it more work?  Yes.  Is it worth it?  IMHO Absolutely. 

In my neck o the woods the white sash with a red Arrow is considered to be quite an honor. It means that the one who wears it is looked up to by the scouts in his troop, as an example  of what a scout should be.

Three of my son's were elected to the order, and went to their ordeal.  Two of them loved it, made many new friends, went to lots of chapter and lodge events, some just for fun, some for training, and took a great deal of new found enthusiasm back to their troop.  Their brother didn't really like the Order, and dropped out after a few months.

I guess I'm saying it will depend on your son, as well as the lodge/chapter into which he is inducted. Some are great full of cheerful scouts who find great satisfaction in serving others. Who enjoy the company of other older scouts who are likewise dedicated to improving their respective troops. It's not an uncommon sight to see 3 or 4 SPLs sitting at a table, talking over some common problem.

  Sadly a few lodges are just awful.    Some are just ok. Hmm,sounds like scout troops.

I would encourage him to go for it.  its not like he is signing a binding contract.

Oldscout

Ps. I see that Barry makes a very good point. Does your son see this as an honor and a privilege ?  Or just another patch?

45 minutes ago, malraux said:

Isn’t that the real victory in the competition?

I think the critical question is why the older scouts don't care.   

 If they have grown past the " gotta have more bling"  stage and care more about having fun and teaching the younger scouts then yes that's a good thing.

Bur we had a district camporee that the same troops patrols" won" year after year.  Even when it was very clear that they didn't.  Somehow the numbers always got tweaked just enough for them to win.  After a while the older scouts just stopped competing.  Sometimes they are smarter than we think.

3 hours ago, carebear3895 said:

*whispers*

Co-Ed Dens are the norm in the field. 

and co-ed troops seem to be the norm around here.   Just not on paper.

1 hour ago, dfg890 said:

  On the flip side, there were cubs chanting 'boys are stronger than girls' at the campfire, and we can't have that either.  We need to be unified in the scouting family.  

Ummm,  as a general rule,   males are stronger than females.   It's a well established fact.                                                                                            

So help me out here, did we not change to the red berets and multi colored rank patches in '72?    

Second class was green, first class red, star was blue.  I forget the rest.

There are a few of us here who were scouts in the 60s or even 50s.   I joined up in '69 but the big uniform change was in '72 or '73.  Something about Oscar de la somethingorother.    

I don't think I have a Guide to Insignia anymore, but I do have the handbooks.     Yes, Knots were worn by adults they were a different colored background than todays versions.    The eagle as I recall was a toss up.  A lot of adults still wore their Eagle badge, I saw a few from the 40's that were square rather than oval,  it was not correct by the strict rules but I never heard of any of the Patch Police having the nerve to call them on it.   A lot of our Scoutmasters had spent a few years  as grunts, shooting at Nazis in France and Germany, or fighting their way across the Pacific.    They didn't put up with much parade ground fluff.

12 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

@Eagle94-A1 exactly correct.  They are so disinteresting.  My son had asked in the fall why the Chapters were still expected to do these scripts skits.  He and another Chapter Chief wanted to write a new, non-NA themed script, and the inductions adviser got huffy that they were even suggesting it.  I think my son wants to be VC to just end the Lodge offering the service altogether.

 

 

The scouts hereabouts read the new ceremonies   skits,  and proclaimed there was no way they were about to do them.   If a pack want to write its own ceremony, fine they will do that.   If the pack requests the ceremony that the OA used to do, these young men will oblige.    Without sashes, uniforms, or any mention of the Order.  They ask for no money, no fame, they do it on their own time, driving their own cars,  using their own stuff, just so the cubs will have the ceremony they have waited and worked for since they were Bobcats. I have no authority to forbid them to do so, i'm not their parents. In fact I am rather proud of them, I think this qualifies as " cheerful  service"  be it with or without a sash.

IMO the huffy inductions adviser needs to be asked who is more important here.   The ivory towered self proclaimed judges of what is acceptable to wear, say, and do?   or the scouts?

On 3/10/2019 at 3:36 AM, David CO said:

I get asked this all the time regarding sports. Can the boys on a team get together for an unsanctioned practice. My answer is no. If they do it, they can be kicked off the team. The school could be penalized.

It is the same way when I was on the school board. Can we get together at Starbucks, have a cup of coffee, and chat about the weather? Yes, but we couldn't talk business. If we did, it would be a serious breach of the Open Meetings Act. We would be breaking the law.

I have a relative who is subject to the insider trading laws. He has to be very careful about talking about business outside of work.

I would be very concerned if I had scouts/parents who were trying to get around the rules like that. It would not be teaching the boys the right values and habits.  I want them to learn good habits to take with them into the adult world.

I sympathize with those who are frustrated with the tangled web of rules being put out by BSA. I also support the right of Chartered Organizations to confront/oppose BSA on some of these rules. But don't be sneaky about it. Sneakiness is not an attractive character trait.

I would be very concerned if I had scouts/parents who were not trying to get around rules that  under the guise of safety forbid the function of the unit that is very core of Boy Scouting.

My boys are not "sneaking".   They have honourably and politely stated that they have no intention of following rules they consider to be both ludicrous and antithetical to Scouting, and that if the adults decide to " kick them off the team"  they will at least go out with their heads held high.

3 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

If the crossover is being conducted by the OA, then the sash is appropriate. 

Plus the OA is looking at different ways it can be of service and be more visible to the Cub program. Wearing the sash at crossovers is just one more way to be more visible to them. 

Would it not be much more appropriate for a crossover to be conducted by the troop into which the cub is entering?   Preferably his den chief, rather than some scout wearing a white sash that the cub has never seen before and in all probability will never see again.

I still fail to see why the sash is to be worn.  What does the OA have to do with either of the new " ceremonies"?

2 minutes ago, qwazse said:

BSA dragged venturing down by a thousand cuts. The worst being last years' youth protection mandates. What group of 14-20 year old co-eds would want to be dependent on the presence of two adults for every meeting and activity? Before that, the distinction between adult and youth participants put an effective wedge between members of a crews with a wide age span. Before that, the jump in registration fees exceeded the average cost of a weekend in the woods on borrowed gear.

For late teens, it is now easier to fulfill the vision of a pinnacle scouting experience of hiking and camping independently with your mates --- without the BSA.

Exactly what I've been hearing,  "We want to go have fun with our friends, hiking/camping/fishing, we have  our own cars, gear, and $.

Why do you  imagine  we need you and your silly rules?

23 minutes ago, DuctTape said:

I think the OA bears the brunt of the responsibility on this front. It is up to them to explain the program, the process, etc... not just show up and expect an election to be conducted for them. The arrowmen in the troop should be the point people for this. 

a bit confused here...

All we ask the SM for is to point out the SPL, TOAR, make sure 50 percent of the scouts are present, and sign his name.  The OA election team then explains the Order, and the election process, and with the TOAR, conducts the election,  counts the ballots, and submits the paperwork.

Another point submitted for your consideration,  how do most of the first year scouts do on the Ordeal?

Do they have the skills to stay warm and dry on the first test?   

Do they have the education to understand what symbolism is and how it is used?    If not, they are simply unable to understand the ceremonies.   Do they even have the vocabulary?

(and if you can't understand the ceremonies you don't even know why you are there)

Have they developed the mental discipline to maintain silence over a prolonged period?

Most of all,  do they have the maturity to understand that an Obligation, sworn upon a Scouts Honor, should be serious stuff.   That the Brotherhood of the Arrow is not just a kids  tree fort  gang? 

On 2/24/2019 at 7:55 PM, ham_solo said:

>Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings.

Hmm, that will be a problem for me as SM when the PLC has their meetings once a month an hour before one of the regular Troop meetings.  Since no other adult leaders are really invited to the PLC meeting, usually I show up and open the door to the church for them to have their PLC meeting, and sit over in the corner of the room while they have their meeting, unless I am asked a question, or feel the need to ask a question, and then I say a few things at the end.  This all happens before any of the rest of the troop shows up and no parents or other adult leaders show up until about the time their PLC meeting is wrapping up.  In a Troop with only a SM, 2 ASMs and a CC this will be a challenge to get another registered leader to show up as well.

I have always followed the old YPT rules and no one-on-one contact, always have at least multiple youth present at all times etc.  But sometimes there are just not other adults present.  Heck, I can even think of a few meetings where for a little while I was the only adult in the building while the only parent there had to run out or something.  We have so many adults that just drop and go these days.  There are times at summer camp where all the other adults are away and I will wander back to our campsite and be the only adult present when some group of boys is there playing cards or something.  Do the adults now need a buddy system at summer camp to make sure there will never be just one of us anywhere there are scouts in addition to making sure there are multiple youth?

This creates more questions such as:

Do I need to start telling the boys they can't have their PLC meeting if no other adults will attend? 

Do I tell them to call their parents to pick them up if the CC is working 2nd shift and one ASM is sick and the other is out of town?

 

 

Do we need to start  telling National to stop making it more and more difficult to deliver a program that even resembles  Scoutimg?    

Today was the first time that Standing Bear Productions LLC, did an Arrow of Light ceremony.    The cubs, siblings, and parents loved it and the CM asked us back for next years crop.  They had an little speech planned which introduced us as OA,  but we asked them to omit that part.  

Not tying to play the devils advocate here, I'm just not sure what the current rules would say given the following situation.  Which although hypothetical could very easily happen in our troop.

A Cub Scout we'll call him Jimmy who is 10 years old , bridges over in March and wants to join his 12 year old brothers Patrol. It is a mixed-age patrol, the oldest being the patrol leader, a life Scout who just turned 14.

The patrol uses 4 man tents, on the May campout only 4 scouts from the patrol can come.  Two 13 year olds, the PL, and Jimmy.

Do the current rules stipulate that Jimmy must sleep alone in a separate tent?

 From the back page of the Brotherhood Ceremony 1949. Song of the Scouts.  by Edwin Markham 

We are the boys of the helping hand.Banded together for the good of all;

We cheer the steps of the ones that stand,And we lift the ones that fall.

Our feet are willing, our hearts are light,And we take the road with a cherry song;

For we are the friends of every right,And the foes of every wrong .

Soldiers are we of the nobler warsThat great souls fight for the common good;

We follow the call of the morning stars,In a knightly brotherhood. 

19 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Problem is nationwide.  I know for my two Scouts, they are not interested in OA because a) all they see is the OA doing work and no one having fun and B) it seems as if everyone is getting in and it it NOT a true honor society. 

The old maxim seems to apply here 

When everyone is special, no one is.

6 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Double, maybe even triple the camping requirements and restrict the number of scouts elected to 1 for every 15 scouts in the troop. 

Barry

1 in 10 was the old ratio, if memory serves.  How about requiring the camping MB?  I'm not sure how many scouts could camp 30 to 45 nights in two years.

@shortridge  you ask a very good question,  I've been mulling it over for a few hours and I'm still not sure I have a clear answer. 

Having  done dozens of Elections I recognized the words at once and have no argument with any of them.  But here are my thoughts as of right now .

In our lodge we play a rather dull  video from National so that all the words are always  exactly correct rather that read from a script or recite it from  memory.  It's a lot easier.  BUT, you can see the eyes of many of the scouts glaze over about one minute in.  Especially the younger ones. They're just sitting there letting the sound wash over them not paying any attention at all.  Then they vote for their buddies. I believe we need to train our election teams much better so that they don't need the video crutch. They need to be able to sit down with the scouts and hold their attention while explaining what the order is what it stands for and how the election works.

In short just recite the script without sounding like you're reciting the script. I am quite aware that I'm coming at this from a ceremonies view point, but I think that's what we need we need to convey our enthusiasm and our earnestness  about the order. 

The other difficulty is that many of the Scouts have been instructed previously by their scoutmaster to vote for everyone on the ballot.

I have been there when the ballots are counted and certain troops, where every Scout gets at least 90% of the vote. Year after year. You may argue that perhaps that troop simply has amazingly exceptional Scouts. Sorry, I've watched them at the ordeal I've watched them at Camporees, they're not.  In fact those troops tend to have the highest percentage of sash and dash in the entire District.

17 hours ago, JoeBob said:

Funny.  The witch hunt for a 'Secret Society' has created a secret society.

Inito

Come to the Dark Side, we have red lightsabers and black capes