MomToEli

Does anyone have a link to information (dates/locations) on National Camp School for 2011? We are wanting to get the info out to the people we are hiring as early as possible this year ...

YP confidentiality never becomes irrelevant. Just because the parents have been talking to you about it and if the boy is talking about it does not open the door for you to talk about it. This is NOT fair game for the EBOR. You need to figure out if you concern for the quality of his character is borne out of this situation (which is how it sounds) and whether or not it is borne out of your loyalty to his step-father (which is also how it sounds). I think the statement that you've made a couple of times that concerns me the most is that you have heard details "through back channels". What does that mean? It sounds like people are talking about things they have no business talking about(gossiping?). Perhaps their character is the character that should be called into question ... I know this likely sounds harsh, but I do agree that it is not usual for kids to make up the details of this, though I concede it does happen. In those cases, however, the false accusation is merely a symptom of a much bigger issue for the youth - one that I would have difficulty believing hasn't been visible long before now to those who have been spending an few hours a week with the young man for several years now.

Hitler and white power? Your troop has issues far deeper than whether or not parents want to tag along. I'd say run, don't walk, as far away from that as you can and take your prized possession with you. I can't imagine any chartered organization wanting that kind of exposure, either. If you are close enough to commute you can come hang out with us

After reading this thread I am very grateful to be in the Council I am in. Seriously. That said, there is a whole lot of bad blood between our District and our Council. Best as I can tell it comes about because neither side really feels like the other side bothers to hear *their* side. It rather reminds me of how people in "the office" and IT don't seem to talk the same language. If you are lucky you have a "bilingual speaker" at the help desk! Anyway, it takes a long time and some serious moderating to get over some of the humps, but we ARE making progress! Being the one who tends to be "bilingual", I truly believe that BOTH sides have one very major thing in common - they love the boys and want to do their best to have a positive impact on their lives and futures.

Hi Everyone! I'm starting to pull together our program for our Council's Webelos Summer Camp. There are 4 campsites that will hold about 35 people - probably 20 of them boys - during each session (we have several). We like to have some sort of competition between the camps. Two years ago each campsite was given masking tape, markers, a couple of straws, a couple of sheets of construction paper and a raw egg. They had to use natural materials and build a carrier for the egg and we had an egg drop competition from the top of our Fort (two story). The egg that held up the best "won" (we don't give awards - only bragging rights). Last year we built bridges using 100 Popsicle sticks and glue. Each group of 4 boys built a bridge, then each campsite picked one to represent their campsite at the competition. We then suspended the bridges over saw horses and using weights and sequenced rocks loaded them up until they broke. This one was a HUGE hit with parents and Scouts alike - it completely consumed our closing night Campfire program time - in fact, it *became* the program! I want to come up with something that is different, but equally exciting. I've thought of volcanos, since we will be working on our Geologist Activity Badges at Camp, but I'm just not sure they are going to provide the wow factor I'm looking for. I've considered rockets, but am WAY tired of water bottle rockets - we seem to do them at EVERY Cub Scout event! - and Estes rockets are out of my budget when I consider I'd need one for every boy - like 450 of them - plus engines (anyone have a source willing to donate those?). So, I'm turning to y'all for ideas, as I know there are lots of creative people on here. Be out of the box! I'm very excited - this year not only am I writing the program, but I'll be at Camp as Program Director so I'll get to see my vision actually unfold for all groups, rather than just one Hurry, summer, don't be late!

" What are the Cubs going to look forward to if they allready have three (3) plus years Resident Camping under thier belt when they become WEBELOS? (Tiger/Wolf/Bear)" Interesting thought, this. I'd like to take a stab at this, as a parent of a boy who has attended camp at all those ranks and will attend this summer as a first year boy scout, and also as the person responsible for writing the program last year and this, as well as attending all 6-1/2 weeks this coming year as Program Director. First, each rank offers a longer camp experience. Tigers is one night, Cub Scouts is two, Webelos is 3. By virtue of that, they also offer increasing program time - not only in days, but in sessions. Seat time/ attention span and all that stuff. We will not be offering a camp for Tigers this year due to lack of participation. Makes me a bit sad, but we have to use our staffing resources wisely. The sophistication of each program advances as well, according to their ages. The idea is to create a Summer Camp habit, so that they will naturally attend camp as Scouts. We are putting our Cub Scout camp on a 3 year rotation and our Webelos camp on a 2 year rotation so that no boy will duplicate his camp experience, with the exception of Outdoorsman for Webelos - and even that will involve different activities than in year one of the cycle. From a leader POV I want camp each year to offer activities that are not easy for me to accomplish at home in my Den or activities that fit better into the camp/outdoor environment that what we can earn in our back yard. More importantly, though, is I want every activity to reinforce one of the 12 character traits that Scouting builds, and to use the various activities to do that. So, as I design an activity, that is the *first* criteria. As for my son - well, if he has fire, shooting and water he is happy. I have never heard a *child* complain that they are doing something they did last year. Only parents and leaders. I DO hear boys talk about the time they spent with their parent, though. When it occurs to them that dad or mom took time off work or away from their daily chores to just come and hang out with *them* ... We do strive to have activities that boys can ONLY do at Webelos Camp, for instance. We have been holding inter-campsite competitions each year - last year it was building bridges and breaking them - not sure who had the most fun, the scouts or the dads! This year it will be volcanoes. And rockets - real ones, not water bottle ones. So we are intentionally designing the programs to give everyone a desire to come back and see what they get to do next year. Webelos get to go out on the lake - year one on rafts, year two in canoes. Anyway, I would hope that *all* Council camps think that way, but maybe not ...

We have just crossed in to our Troop. Our situation may offer a solution, even though it is a bit different. My son is the first new boy in our Troop in over 2 years. We also have 5 other Webelos committed to crossing over into the Troop in February. The vast majority of our veteran boys will be attending Philmont this year. Our younger boys can NOT go, first because of age, and second because they've not had the opportunity to raise the funds necessary. Solution? Our Scoutmaster, along with my husband and any other adult leader who wants to, will be taking our new boys, even if it is only one, to our local camp this summer. If, btw, she (SM) was not willing, we, as parents, would be taking our son ourselves, hooking up with another Troop if need be. This is because *we* understand the value of summer camp. I am hoping that some of the other boys will be joining our son at camp, though I'm not confident of that happening, but we will go anyway even if we go as a Troop of One. I would be going with them, as well, except I'm going to be Program Director on the Cub Scout side of camp - at least I'll be able to make it to Parent Night Application? Suggest that those who, for whatever reason, don't want to attend camp in VA attend your local area camp instead. As the Troop bonds more as a Troop the boys will apply the pressure to stay together as a group, regardless of what a parent/DC says.

This winter will be the first of many for my just-crossed-over Boy Scout, and we are planning his first Klondike and Winter Survival School (two consecutive winter camping weekends ...). I have bought him a set of UA - compression type. Now I'm second guessing myself. Are those TOO close fitting? Should I exchange them for looser fit?

Curious as to how the next campout went ...

A smaller day pack - never used the bladder in the camel back and didn't need the weight. A smaller flashlight - the huge Maglight was heavy and difficult to hold in my mouth while my hands were busy! A better light for my tent - the little LED lantern that was five bucks at Wally World didn't put out enough light in all the right places to do me much good. A lighter back pack - too much gear. Learned that Be Prepared could be done in lighter weight versions. More Febreeze The new Scout pants - the pockets in the old ones are not gear friendly. A piece of rope to loop over the beam of the Camp tent to hang my uniform from. (Hint: Do NOT use the straps you tie the flaps back with - your shirt stays against the side all night - both mornings I put on a damp shirt).

Ok, guys ... even though I am a "girl" and obviously have never been a Scout myself (thus, no practical experience) I hope you are willing to entertain my thoughts on this. Let me put out there first that I truly adore BSA and what it stands for. Our youth today, boys in particular, need to be taught the values embraced by the BSA and that all seems to be getting lost in our society. If we do NOT raise them with these values I personally think there is major trouble for us just around the corner. I have held the positions of Den Leader, Webelos Leader, Pack Committee Member, just now accepted on the Troop Committee, and am currently District Cubscout Roundtable Commissioner and on the District Committee as Activities Chair. I am halfway through Wood Badge training and will work my ticket items at the Troop level. I have attended every training made available to me to date. We have taken our son to every Camp activity (Day, Summer, etc) which he has been eligible to attend and I have been either a volunteer, organizer and/or written the program for each level of camp involving Cub Scouts. Hopefully based on that you will find value in my opinion. What I think is happening is that people are losing sight of who and what the BSA really is - the program is morphing in all different directions to fit what people at all levels *want* it to be. How many units don't wear uniforms because they are too restricting, too military, too expensive, too uncool, too whatever? How many units push their boys through various merit badges (and demand their camps do the same)for the sake of the badge, sacrificing the learning of the character qualities those badges are designed to build when those qualities require TIME and ATTENTION to earn. Many units seem to be doing activities for the activity's sake. In watching my own Den over the years and with the privilege of working with the Council and District, I've come to realize that we have lost sight of the vision. Our parents certainly don't have it - Scouts is just another on the long list of "experiences" they want their kids to have - along with participating in every sport, band, chorus and maybe church (maybe). I know that in our own Pack I have heard many times from our Committee Chair that we are simply NOT going to do things the way "the book" (the Leader's Guide) says we are - whether we are talking about things like Tour Permits, getting pre-approval for fundraisers or requiring uniform pants vs jeans or even that shirts need to be tucked in. We don't do uniform inspections, we don't sing songs or do skits at Pack Meetings or camp outs. We have only had one campfire program at a camp out - the one that *I* planned. We don't require parents to lift a finger at camp outs outside of setting up their own tents because we want people to come and relax and just have "fun". We have tossed out the whole "fun with a purpose" idea and gone strictly with "fun". And frankly, our parents seem to want it that way. Before you suggest changing it, the Committee Chair would have to be unseated in order for that to happen - and no one, including me, is willing to take on the task. I'm just grateful we are moving on. Two years ago at summer (Cub)camp leaders were complaining that there was too much free time in the program. There really WAS, too. The next year we completely rewrote the program and schedule and now people complain there wasn't enough free time. Sigh. You can't please very many people, it seems. But - we are going to going to go back to our roots with this one. Whether Boy Scouts or Cub Scouts, Summer Camp is going to be about building boys' character. In the process they will earn some achievements and badges. We have failed to communicate the vision - to parents, to boys, to leaders. Maybe we have never caught the vision in the first place. (stepping off soapbox, dragging it back into the corner, and tiptoeing away ...)

I just finished up the first weekend of the course. What a great experience! Not to be confused with a totally smooth experience. There are four of us on our patrol that are what I would call strong personalities. You know - vocal, decisive, doers. A couple of those are highly educated. Two are more quiet types. Not to say they aren't doers, but just different types of doers. One describes himself as a helper and seems very timid at the idea of being in charge of anything. You have to ask him his thoughts. That sort. Very nice man, but you have to draw out a smile from him. The other is also very nice, very friendly, has a smile for everyone sort of guy. But very quiet, so you have to make it a point to ask him what he would like to say and be quiet long enough to listen to him. That part is difficult for one of our members to do. The listening part. We did some major storming on the second day. It was a difficult day emotionally. Frankly, I've never been on any committee that was trying to function the way we were. Makes me thankful for the dysfunctional committees I really DO belong to One of the vocal guys and one of the quiet guys tend to complain about a lot of things. To the point that I told the vocal one that next time he has to serve up cheese with it, because too much whine without cheese makes me goofy in the head! A couple of people think they have to have their hands in every single thing and we have to have a consensus to the point that it makes it difficult to accomplish anything. Did I mention we did some major storming? One guy keeps complaining he doesn't have enough free time. Free time? Man, I'm not on vacation here! I paid big bucks to LEARN. (They did tell us there would be a little more down time the second weekend, but I suspect that is a relative term!) I realized this is precisely what my son is going to have to go through as he is thrust into the Patrol situation (he is crossing over Oct 1). This experience, first and foremost, is equipping me with the skills to teach my own son how to navigate and learn to build relationships with others more effectively. Secondly, I've learned a great deal about myself in this process. Some of it I like, and some of it not so much. I will learn from it, adjust what needs to be to the best of my ability, and build more on my strengths. All of this and I still have another weekend to go. I encourage you not to look at the formal part of the course as something to endure so you "get" to work your tickets. Learn the lessons they are trying to teach you in leadership and cooperation. You will need those skills to effectively execute your tickets at the very least. I also encourage you to use the experience as a mirror. We are ALL a work in progress. Now, back to Gilwell - and hi to all you Foxes out there

I love the idea of a monthly slide. You could have it be your gathering activity or your craft segment. Just keep them simple. PVC pipe works really well, in my experience. Of course, the adults use the glue gun. I still run that appliance with my Webelos.

Webelos (1 & 2, as there is no distinction published anywhere) are being allowed at our Spring Camporee but they are *required* to have an parent or adult guardian with them, just as with Webelos overnight camping.

We have had a couple of instances where another parent will take responsibility for another boy. We've not had any problems, but it has been the exception. Like one or two boys out of 30-40 boys. Remember that under no circumstances can a boy sleep in the tent of any adult other than his parent or guardian. No matter what. Sick - storms - scared - whatever. And no adult can enter that child's tent without two deep leadership. Or the shower. Or the outhouse. No.Matter.What. Even at resident camp. So, be sure to take extra tents that you can put two or three boys in for the night.

We've been having similar discussions about Webs1 and Webs2. As for Bears at the Webelos Woods event I would say it would depend on if it involves overnight camping and if it is a Council or District sponsored event. I would certainly entertain them being there during the day, but not sure I'd let them camp. Interesting topic since I just took on the District Activities Chair responsibilities and this one falls in my lap! Your ideas help me think through it all.

As a Webelos2 leader who is breaking out of the box this year, I'd like to take a shot at this one. Traditionally our Pack has combined AOL and crossing over at the B&G - we have one of those 3-4 hour ordeals, and I agree, they are WAY too long. We find ourselves this year with TWO Webs2 dens - about 16-17 boys all together. That will make for a VERY long B&G ... I want my boys to have an outdoor AOL ceremony. We are going to do it at the Fall Campout, which we hold in September. I've invited the OA dancers to perform. I really don't think the CC is too hot on the idea, but the rest of the committee thinks it will make a great campfire program. I will be crossing over ONE boy then (my own son) so our Scout Troop will be there, too. The rest of my boys will cross over in February. I will include photos in the slide show that runs during the B&G. The biggest reason for doing this is that I want this ceremony to be a really big deal for my boys. I'm pretty sure not all of them are going to cross over and I want to create a memory they will hold dear enough to tell their sons and grandsons about. It might even inspire them to want to keep going. IMO the ceremony at the B&G doesn't offer much in the way of a memory to honor THE highest possible achievement in Cub Scouts. There is too much other stuff going on. The boys light a candle on the wobbly AOL display and walk over the bridge to the Scout Master. That really is it. Each leader is responsible for their own group. Hopefully I'll set a high bar and others will reach for it. I kind of doubt it, though. So - do my boys just get shuffled on because that is the most effort others want to do? (I'm not implying that is all your Pack is doing - honest!). I would love for the rest of the Pack to see this, but that is not a deciding factor for me. Given the choice of do it at B & G or do it alone I would absolutely do it alone. I bet I'd have the support of the old Scouters in the District, too Has this guy said the rest of the Pack is not welcome?

I can tell you what our DE said when a similar situation reared it's ugly head here ... Note the differences: Dad's issue is drug related crimes. Turns out, so is Mom's. Robbery, IMO, is a much more personal crime - as in there is a clear infraction against another person or persons. We ended up declaring that they were not welcome in our den (dh is is LE - and at the time the issue first came up, was even on a narcotics task force). The DE said we were within our rights to refuse participation in our den, but we could not exclude them from the pack if there was another den willing to take them. There was and he and his family are there now. They didn't attend our Family Campout, but the kiddo came with another family and the boys stayed in a tent separate from the parent of the "host family". Now, suddenly, the kiddo who hadn't come anywhere near completing a single achievement towards his Wolf Badge has done so since the end of September and is being awarded same Wolf Badge (as a Bear, mind you). Something is really smelly in Denmark, but the Committee Chair says let it fly, so I'll buy the badge this week so we can have a little ceremony at the next Pack Meeting. Anyway, those sour grapes aside, if you have a strong moral objection to having the family participate in your Den (we cited conflict of interest with dh's job as well as child safety concerns), say so and stand your ground. The Council at least backed us that far. He is not asking for a character reference letter, btw - merely a letter confirming his wearabouts. If you are going to let him go with you, then I don't see why you wouldn't be willing to let his PO know that, though I'd make it clear that you have no way to assure he does not leave during the night hours.

How do you all go about teaching your Cub Scouts (I have Bears) the principles of LNT? I took my little guys on a hike this past weekend and the kids aren't the only ones who need to learn this ... And how do you teach adults that it is NOT okay to climb up on top of Indian Burial Mounds ... ?

Tonight I get to field this whole uniform "issue", along with who knows what else (say a little prayer that I''ll keep my composure, if you would be so kind). So, I''ve been giving this a whole lot of thought. I think the question I want to put to the crowd is: where do you draw the line? We get our boys involved in Cub/Boy Scouts, we find things that we don''t care for, so we start to change Scouts? Today, it''s a couple of kids that insist on not wearing their uniforms - btw, I had a den meeting Monday night - only two of ten did NOT wear their shirts - one wore a shirt from this summer''s day camp, the other a Cub Scout t-shirt - but what about tomorrow when some scout and his family decide that they don''t really care all that much for God and refuse to do the require Achievement for the Bear Rank? Am I supposed to sign off on a boy because that offends his sensibilities? What I perceive this to be is a matter of rebellion - I don''t have to and you can''t make me. Well, they are correct about that. But how far do we take it? And since when do we join an organization and then start trying to change the organization to make it something we''d prefer? Try showing up for the Little League baseball game in shorts and a t-shirt, tell the coach you are going to play but not wear the uniform. See what happens to ya. Okay - I''ve spouted off and I feel better.

Wow. I think I''m going to hug my little Bear Cubs next time I see them. They do NOT act like this and never have. We had 11 of them. We also homeschool our only, so I understand a lot of where you are coming from. The very first thing I would do is call a meeting with all parents and cubs. I would have someone else there from the Pack - CC or CM or just someone who has been around awhile. I would talk clearly about what is expected in the way of behavior at meetings. I would also require a parent to attend all meetings for at least the first half of the year. I did that with my parents last year (our first) and by the middle of the year, the parents were so into everything that now I can''t get them to stay home! It gave me and the boys a chance to get to know each other, the parents let me correct their kids and only step in when their kid is being particularly naughty. I had one time that a boy stuck his finger in paint and then into another boy''s eye. I was on that one like glue. Little offender was put into time out on the step where he could hear what was going on but not be a part. After about 10 minutes I sat and talked to him about how to deal with anger, giving him permission to interrupt me even if he thought he was getting that mad again. Then he and mom and I had a really long talk when she got there (she was taking a college class and hadn''t been there for about 3 weeks. I think it really bothered him not having mom there). I use tools like Den Doodles, a Conduct Candle and Den Rules to help maintain order. I also follow a routine so the kids know what is coming next. We have very little "down" time. Left with nothing to do, they will get wound up. I keep thinking of my little guys and trying to even imagine them being that defiant and I can''t even picture it. Get parents and Pack involved in this. Scouts really IS worth it. Really, it is. And so are the kids if you can get this under control.

I''m not upset with anyone here. The situation upsets me because there are other people IRL who won''t let the fact that this family has been transfered to another den be enough. Our goal was never to get the kid expelled from scouts. But I have grown weary of having to defend ourselves for making a decision that pertains to our family and den - and in that decision, the council has backed us completely. I''m weary of someone else''s choices being thrust upon me as if they were and are helpless and somehow I should accomodate that. I don''t cotton to such bs well. If this whole mess hadn''t been blatantly waved in our faces, we wouldn''t be where we are right now. I wanted to to figure out policy (which you all have helped me with), figure out what my alternatives are (which you all have helped me with), and try to sort out what exactly I''m feeling and why (which, you all have helped me with)-for which I am deeply grateful. It is frustrating when you believe people aren''t hearing you clearly, and that is a limitation of the internet. It is also what happens when you are talking about issues that have such wide divisions. I didn''t come looking for people to pat me on the back and tell me you go, girl. Your feedback has helped me hear the other side more clearly and I''ve been able to do so in a calm manner. So, we are all good here, at least from my side of the screen. I apologize if in my state of intense thinking I offended anyone.

In an ideal world, I''d like to see the kiddos decide that they want to be in uniform because they take pride in doing so. So far, there is a total disconnect with that. That same lack of pride and respect can be seen often during the presentation of the colors. There is lots of fidgeting and talking during the Pledge. Since I''ve been known to make the kids in my den re-do the Pledge if they do so in that manner at Den Meetings, maybe that''s why the comment was made by a parent that sometimes I''m too "military". Hmmm. Oh, well. Anyway, sorry for the little hijack there. I''ll be pecking away at this one steadily.

Thank you all for your responses. Eammon, sounding like judge and jury is exactly what I don''t want to be perceived as doing, which is why I am attempting to work through this here. Some of you do seem to be missing the point that we are not talking about their past, their youth, or even a while ago. We are talking about ongoing, present behavior. It doesn''t have to be today, sitting in the parking lot before a meeting to be present. And I don''t need to be the judge and jury. They''ve already been convicted. But thanks to a very liberal court system, we have a revolving door for criminals of all swipes. That sounds great, until it''s your property or your loved on or your self that is harmed or threatened. Then it''s the system that failed. But, what I''m running up against is a society that has liberalized itself, and being anti-drugs isn''t a particularly popular way to be. Being involved in the drug culture just isn''t perceived as all that serious. That is simply a result of lack of knowledge and understanding of the problem in the first place. It reminds me of the woman who fears the person who is stalking her, but until that person actually hurts her, she has no legal complaint (that, by the way has changed). I noticed no one came near the question - what if the parent had a history of pedophilia. Or the question, does the nature of the criminal offense matter? The anthem that what is past is past could be said of any and every offense - and if it is a true statement, is often a valid consideration. It is unfortunate that this is a concern that I can''t work out without sounding holier than thou. That is so far apart from who I am and what I actually am wrestling with here. I love the kids in my den - I have a tremendous amount of emotional investment in these children - which in and of itself is probably not a good thing. Like many of you I invest hours of my time and large numbers of our dollars into our den each week. I take my responsiblities to these children as serious as if they were my own. I bet you all do to. I''ve opened my home to our scout families. We have worked hard to create a safe and comfortable environment here. All of a sudden I don''t feel safe here. I have imagines of someone leaving a rock of meth in my sofa, or grabbing my husband''s badge off the top of the self in his bathroom. I remember him coming home a couple of years back telling me that they had found a list of the names, addresses and vehicle plate numbers of all of the guys on their task force - found the list in the home of a druggie they did a search warrant on. One of the guys - the state had to put a top notch security system in his home because of death threats against him AND his family. That sort of stuff is the stuff of nightmares for a cop''s family. I have friends who have had their attached garage bombed (while wife and kids were asleep inside the house)by someone who just was minding their own business in their drug infested life ... It is difficult to live in a society that seems oblivious to that reality. Or if they are aware, somehow figure it''s just the risk we take. Needless to say, den meetings will no longer be in our home. I''m feeling like I am working with an organization that is telling me I MUST put myself and my child in the potential of harms way. That makes me very uncomfortable. My husband and I are among the first to come along side someone who is trying to break away from a lifestyle that is a detriment to themselves and their family. We aren''t cold hearted, judgemental individuals. Well, dh might be considered that. If he doesn''t pay attention to those little clues, I''ll be visited by the two guys in the dark blue car one night. So, honey - judge away. Unfortunately for me, I guess, I no longer have the luxuary of viewing life through tinted glasses that allow me minimize just how significant a problem illegal drug use is in our midst today. These are not the same drugs we faced in the 60s and 70s. It''s not the same pot. And the drugs of choice around here are far more volital than any pot. See, you all simply assumed I''m talking about pot in this case. And frankly, the specific drug is inconsequental to the conversation. I am just very disappointed that people who are charged with mentoring to and building young people fail to see the dangers in exposing our children to such a life. I am reasonably sure that given the arrest record of the mom in particular that the children have been visited by DHS. Of course, that has the worth of about squat anymore. Children at risk are left in the care of those incapable of caring for their kids on a very regular basis. And yes, kids like this do need allies and places where they can be exposed to a much different way of life. Why do you think I''m struggling here? Anyway, we are talking to our CC and it will be decided at the council level at least. Then if there is a major failure in the system, no one will be able to plead ignorance. And, I''ve no doubt that both parents will end up in trouble again - without me or my dh having to do anything at all. After all, mom is currently driving while barred. She''ll run a stop sign somewhere. Her pattern seems to be about every 3 months. And that may make this case a non-issue. I guess what I was attempting to accomplish in this discussion here, on this board, was to determine if BSA had guidelines in this matter. If they don''t, or if what they decide presents a conflict for us, then we, as a family have to evaluate our involvement. I don''t know the right answer for the Pack - honest. I just know the right answer for our family - at least a the den level, which is a smaller, more intimate group. I just am trying to sort out the facts, my own emotions and take the pulse, maybe of a group of experienced scouters, such as yourselves. Sorry to ramble. This is really bothering me.

Well, you are talking to a mom whose little Bear Cub simply was going to DIE if I did not buy him the new Cub Switchbacks, so I''m talking to you this evening $25 lighter. And now that he has them, he has to wear them. I suspect I should have gotten him socks, too ... I would LOVE to see us in full uniform. Of course, I''m a girl whose a sucker for a guy in uniform anyway But, the jeans as suitable pants decision was made by the Committee long before we came on the scene. Part of the reason I''m having a problem at the Den level is because we simply don''t take uniforms seriously at the Pack level, beyond most of the leaders. I say most, because we do have one that is always showing up in street clothes. I think our CC and myself are the only leaders that even OWN a pair of official pants - they don''t make them long enough for my dh - we''ve checked. Our CC, who is a great guy who lives for the Scouts, is really open to discussion on most things, but not this one. I do have him realizing that it would be in the Pack''s best interest to at least start rewarding properly attired scouts at the pack meetings. But, this is one of his pet peeves. He simply does not want the dislike of a uniform to keep a boy from being in scouts. One little victory - he did tell the kiddos that for our upcoming family campout that if they didn''t want to wear Class A shirts - and he wouldn''t blame them if they didn''t want to - then they could be in any kind of a Scout t-shirt. A big step for him, but I''m sure that sounded like clothing free for all to them and their parents. And he is really wanting to spend some of our money to subsidize the creation of, printing of and owning of a Class B tshirt. There is little consolation in the realization that the problem is so very widespread.